You must PROVE you LOVE the LORD to be saved!

FreeGrace2 · Apr 4, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
What does it mean to work 55%? Take that answer and double it.

OK, show me some evidence that anyone CAN work over 100%. Without evidence, there is no reason to accept such a claim.

I said:
"Except, the Bible does not teach your opinions."

I have “the mind of Christ” which means it does on some points at least.

We all have the "mind of Christ", which are God's Word, found in the Bible. But your opinions are not taught in Scripture. As I said.

The bible never defines anyone as true saved. So your opinion does not match the Bible

You are correct on the first point. The Bible never uses the word "true" or "truly" when describing saved people.

Paul's answer to the jailer was clear enough: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.

Do you think that just because Paul didn't use your pet word "truly" before 'saved' that he had in mind anything less than "truly saved" in his answer to the jailer?

However, your second comment is just another opinion of yours.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 4, 2019

FreeGrace2 · Apr 4, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Strange you didn’t recognize that I did. James never went around gloating on how a great a faith he had and look at the great works he does as you suggest.

No, strange that you thought this represents a response to what I said about James 2:18. But you didn't.

You attack him character too.

Correct word is "his". And I never even suggested that he had character issues. Where did that nugget come from? Please show your "evidence".

But believe means more than mental ascent. “If you love me, keep my teaching.”

You're the one using the phrase 'mental ascent'. Not me. The Greek word, just like the English word, for 'believe' means TRUST. Look it up. Don't take my word for it.

What you cannot find any evidence for is that 'believe' means to "work for, earn something, etc".

BCsenior · Apr 4, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
You (true believers?) do have true saving faith not because you haven’t fallen away, but because of some confidence in a theology that promises you won’t.

This probably works for some who are serious.

But, God put multitudes of dire warnings in the NT
about losing salvation ... to help others
stay on (or get on, or get back on)
the narrow path to eternal life!

Was He exaggerating, bluffing, lying even?

P.S. Don't work beyond 100%, okay?

Dorothy Mae · Apr 4, 2019

BCsenior said:
This probably works for some who are serious.

But, God put multitudes of dire warnings in the NT
about losing salvation ... to help others
stay on (or get on, or get back on)
the narrow path to eternal life!

Dont you means he warns multitudes about that? Actually, doesn’t he warn everyone? I’m not sure I understand you.

Was He exaggerating, bluffing, lying even?

No, he tells the truth especially about how we treat others.

P.S. Don't work beyond 100%, okay?

You are kind.
I was offered some extra work and I’m trying it out. Means about a 45 hour week for me. I appreciate your thoughtfulness though.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 4, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
No, strange that you thought this represents a response to what I said about James 2:18. But you didn't.

Sounded like it. Read your words again.

You're the one using the phrase 'mental ascent'. Not me. The Greek word, just like the English word, for 'believe' means TRUST. Look it up. Don't take my word for it.

The ones who “come to Jesus” “calling in the name of the Lord” believed enough to do miracles in his name. They believed. They lacked relationship so Jesus didn’t know them. But they believed. They were not atheists.

What you cannot find any evidence for is that 'believe' means to "work for, earn something, etc".

Since the lives of those who believed changed radically and Jesus called those who believe to take up their cross and follow Him, it’s clear it doesn’t mean “just agree.”

Now you can tell yourself since the dictionary says “mentally agree” and nothing more, God also expects nothing more, but you’d be fooling yourself. A lot of westerners do these days. It’s politically correct to be positive and light even if untrue. You wouldn’t be alone.

Let’s leave it. I don’t think you’re open to anything but defending OSAS. But this is true of all OSAS believers. They defend their “fire insurance” to the tooth and sometimes bite. This theology doesn’t produce good fruit at all.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 4, 2019

BCsenior said:
This probably works for some who are serious.

But, God put multitudes of dire warnings in the NT
about losing salvation ... to help others
stay on (or get on, or get back on)
the narrow path to eternal life!

Yeah, that's it. Work to get on or back on the narrow path to eternal life.

Such a view is a legalistic works based salvation, which is NO salvation. The Pharisees thought they earned salvation, but Jesus rebuked them over and over.

P.S. Don't work beyond 100%, okay?

Don't work at all. If you want to be saved. Put all your trust in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

He alone saves. By the work that He did for us. That is grace and is in direct stark contrast to your works based attempt at salvation.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 4, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Sounded like it. Read your words again.

Don't have to. I know what I post. But you said nothing about my comments about James 2:18.

The ones who “come to Jesus” “calling in the name of the Lord” believed enough to do miracles in his name. They believed. They lacked relationship so Jesus didn’t know them. But they believed. They were not atheists.

Are you not aware that Jesus said whoever believes HAS (that means present possession of) eternal life? John 5:24, 6:47.

He then said those He gives eternal life (whoever believes) shall never perish. John 10:28

So, it appears one of 2 things is true:

Either:
1. you have rejected these 3 verses, or
2. you have no clue what Jesus meant by these 3 verses.

I'm curious, which number describes your view?

Since the lives of those who believed changed radically and Jesus called those who believe to take up their cross and follow Him, it’s clear it doesn’t mean “just agree.”

Of course there are many commands to "continue in the faith", etc. But NONE of them link that to salvation.

Now you can tell yourself since the dictionary says “mentally agree” and nothing more, God also expects nothing more

I never said that, nor hinted at such nonsense.

I've been clear all along. There are MANY verses about obedience and faithfulness in the NT, directed at believers. But NONE of them are for salvation, or to keep salvation.

but you’d be fooling yourself.

That's what you are doing by all your insistence that there is more to believing than believing.

Let’s leave it. I don’t think you’re open to anything but defending OSAS.

I'm not interested in your opinions. Esp since they don't line up with Scripture.

Here's what I am open about. The truth of God's Word. Which you don't understand.

If salvation can be lost, then Jesus lied. Plain and simple.

If salvation requires more than believing, then Paul lied to the jailer. Plain and simple.

But this is true of all OSAS believers. They defend their “fire insurance” to the tooth and sometimes bite. This theology doesn’t produce good fruit at all.

What you seem to be unable to grasp is that those who recognize eternal security and are balanced, also recognize God's painful (Heb 12:11) discipline for His rebellious children. No one "gets away" with anything. That seems to be the sticking point with Arminians. They just can't stand the idea that a saved person will "get away with" sin.

But your fears are groundless. The Bible is clear; God WILL judge His children. But not with hell fire, as you and the rest of the Arminians hope for, but with painful discipline.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 6, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Don't have to. I know what I post. But you said nothing about my comments about James 2:18.

I know what I post and I certianly did.

Are you not aware that Jesus said whoever believes HAS (that means present possession of) eternal life? John 5:24, 6:47.

Are you now aware that Jesus said that if we do not forgive those who sin against us we will not be forgive? Maybe you can say that those who do not forgive do not have possession of eternal life. Are you willing to admit that this is the measuring line God uses? Jesus said so. Or do you think people "possess eternal life" with unforgiven sin? Which is it?
(I know what OSASers do though. They blacken out all passages that they do not like so I know what your answer will be...ignore the Bible when it does not fit OSAS promises.)

He then said those He gives eternal life (whoever believes) shall never perish. John 10:28

"For if you do not forgive your brother or sister from the heart, neither will you be forgiven." Just to bug you, know that I forgive you for your insults.

So, it appears one of 2 things is true:

Either:
1. you have rejected these 3 verses, or
2. you have no clue what Jesus meant by these 3 verses.

Or
3. I understand that "possessing" eternal life is conditional and so can read and embrace ALL of the Bible, not just the bits I like. All OSAS believers embrace only the bits they like. The rest they ignore or have absurd theories as to why that threat does not affect them.

I'm curious, which number describes your view?

3.

Of course there are many commands to "continue in the faith", etc. But NONE of them link that to salvation.

Ah, so it is just an "optional extra" if one wants to do so. Why one can have the world and salvation with that theology. And some do. Or they think they do....

I never said that, nor hinted at such nonsense.

I've been clear all along. There are MANY verses about obedience and faithfulness in the NT, directed at believers. But NONE of them are for salvation, or to keep salvation.

Sorry but you missed if we do not forgive we will not be forgiven. Remember the guy who was forgiven his debt only to require a smaller debt from someone else? The forgiveness of his debt was repealed. Forgiving others is directly tied to being forgiven and hence salvation. I know you wished it were not so but it is so in the mind of Christ. Obedience is not an optional extra.

That's what you are doing by all your insistence that there is more to believing than believing.

I recognize that people lie to themselves or refine words to allow themselves to fool themselves. Jesus defined loving him as keeping his teaching. Doesn't he know that love is just love and ought not to insist that there is more to love than love, like keeping his teaching? Why does he think those who love him actually behave differently??? This is what you are doing.

I'm not interested in your opinions. Esp since they don't line up with Scripture.

They line up perfectly with scripture. Perfectly. If you love Jesus you will keep his teaching. YOU WILL. It is not an optional extra. And loving Jesus is directly tied to salvation. Or do you think those who hate Christ or have no love for God are in heaven because they repeated some words way back when? THis is really all just your personal opinion and I have shown you where it is the opposite of scripture. The difference is I am interested in your opinion because of the love of Christ in me for you. That is a difference beween us. I am interested in the opinions of others out of love for them.

Here's what I am open about. The truth of God's Word. Which you don't understand.

I understand it perfectly. You reject the bits you do not personally like, the bits that call for you to be different.

If salvation can be lost, then Jesus lied. Plain and simple.

Where did Jesus say, "salvation cannot be lost???" Why did Jesus say that some will fall away from the faith? YOu know, falling away from the faith means being lost. It is not just a "too bad."

If salvation requires more than believing, then Paul lied to the jailer. Plain and simple.

Believing requires more that merely agreeing. It means your life is different. This is true in everything in life, by the way. When a man believes something, really believes it, he acts accordingly. ALl men do this about things they believe. I have known a number of people who believed a certain person would not XYZ. And when they did XYZ, they were astonished and sometimes devastated. But they believed this and trusted accordingly. Then I know some who believed another could do XYZ and did not trust them. They believed they would. They behaved differently.

What you seem to be unable to grasp is that those who recognize eternal security and are balanced, also recognize God's painful (Heb 12:11) discipline for His rebellious children.

I sure wish the OSAS crowd would learn to have some common courtesy. You guys cannot disagree without being personally insulting. I "grasp" the whole of your position. You do not seem to understand mine (which is not insulting as your terms.)

No one "gets away" with anything. That seems to be the sticking point with Arminians. They just can't stand the idea that a saved person will "get away with" sin.

Wrong. We never say that. We think that a believer will come to keep the teaching of JEsus and needs to do so. We need to forgive the OSASers for their insults and the harm they do to the Kingdom of God. Forgive you we must. Because we want to be forgiven and we really believe all the teaching of Jesus, all of it.

But your fears are groundless. The Bible is clear; God WILL judge His children. But not with hell fire, as you and the rest of the Arminians hope for, but with painful discipline.

I am very sorry for you. I have never met an OSASer who really understood God or frankly speaking, loved Him much. They love his salvation and insist they got it no matter how they treat and insult others as evidenced by the insulting words most of you (if not all) of you use when facing someone who does not agree with you.

I expect one the OSAS "moderators" will shut this down now but I suspect that some of them have the rule that "you must following the teaching of Jesus" is another forbidden topic. Discuss what the mods like and believe or you get the axe. This is the fruit of a theology that is not anything close to what Jesus taught. He never shut any discussion down with a "verboten" move.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 6, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Yeah, that's it. Work to get on or back on the narrow path to eternal life.

Such a view is a legalistic works based salvation, which is NO salvation. The Pharisees thought they earned salvation, but Jesus rebuked them over and over.

Don't work at all. If you want to be saved. Put all your trust in the work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

He alone saves. By the work that He did for us. That is grace and is in direct stark contrast to your works based attempt at salvation.

I have never yet met an OSAS believer who got beyond they are saved no matter how they behave to others. The love of Christ or the love of the brethen is repeatedly absent. And loving God is also merely an optional extra for OSAS believers in my experience. They are going to Heaven and that is the end of their theology. That is pretty much what I run into.

I am very sorry for them. Knowing God will not be something that will be in the realm of their walk with him. One cannot be focused on how one is saved from hell and be looking at God at the same time. The focus is salvation, not God.

It would be a shock to hear that if there were no salvation but this life is all there was, I would still love God and follow Jesus the same. NO OSAS believer can even consider such a thing as salvation is all they want. But I will say it again, if there were NO SALVATION, I would follow Jesus and love God the same. No difference. I have moved on from salvation into loving HIm with my heart and soul and mind and strength. No man can love God and be thinking solely of the gifts he gave. That is loving the gifts, not the Giver. And God knows the difference believe me.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 6, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Are you now aware that Jesus said that if we do not forgive those who sin against us we will not be forgive?

Yes, and I understand what He meant. He wasn't talking about one's status of salvation.

Given 1 John 1:9 and subject of "fellowship" the basis of 1 John 1, it should be clear that a believer who sins and doesn't confess won't be forgiven or cleansed. That is about being OUT OF FELLOWSHIP, just like one spouse so offending the other spouse as to break harmony and fellowship within the marriage relationship.

Verses about sin resulting in our prayers not being heard:
Psa 66:18 - If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened;

Isa 59:2 - But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

These verses speak to loss of fellowship with the Lord due to unconfessed sin.

Maybe you can say that those who do not forgive do not have possession of eternal life.

No, I cannot say that. Why would I? I know what the Bible says. "whoever believes POSSESES eternal life" (John 5:24, 6;47, 1 John 5:13). And "recipients of eternal life shall never perish" (John 10:28).

Are you going to argue against these clear verses?

Are you willing to admit that this is the measuring line God uses?

For fellowship, yes, of course.

But for salvation? No, absolutely not.

Jesus said so. Or do you think people "possess eternal life" with unforgiven sin? Which is it?

See above.

(I know what OSASers do though. They blacken out all passages that they do not like so I know what your answer will be...ignore the Bible when it does not fit OSAS promises.)

Did you take a personal survey of all OSAS people? Sounds pretty haughty, imho.

"For if you do not forgive your brother or sister from the heart, neither will you be forgiven." Just to bug you, know that I forgive you for your insults.

What you take as insults are just plain facts from the Bible. Are you not aware of Titus 1:13 - This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith.

Or
3. I understand that "possessing" eternal life is conditional and so can read and embrace ALL of the Bible, not just the bits I like. All OSAS believers embrace only the bits they like. The rest they ignore or have absurd theories as to why that threat does not affect them.

Well, eternal life IS conditioned upon believing, per John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47, 11:25-27, 20:31, 1 John 5:11, 13.

But, once having received eternal life, the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

3.
Ah, so it is just an "optional extra" if one wants to do so. Why one can have the world and salvation with that theology. And some do. Or they think they do....

Yeah, go ahead and just ignore the warnings about God's PAINFUL discipline (Heb 12:11). A believer who thinks they can keep one foot "in the world" will realize painfully just how wrong they are.

Sorry but you missed if we do not forgive we will not be forgiven.

Didn't miss it at all. The difference is that I understand what's being taught.

Remember the guy who was forgiven his debt only to require a smaller debt from someone else? The forgiveness of his debt was repealed. Forgiving others is directly tied to being forgiven and hence salvation.

You were doing just fine until you added "hence salvation". This is confused. There is the forgiveness of sin tied to the cross, and then there is forgiveness of sin for fellowship.

The forgiveness tied to the cross is part of the salvation package. The forgiveness tied to fellowship is related to one's spiritual growth (or lack thereof).

I expect one the OSAS "moderators" will shut this down now but I suspect that some of them have the rule that "you must following the teaching of Jesus" is another forbidden topic.

Seems you expect and suspect some rather strange things.

Discuss what the mods like and believe or you get the axe. This is the fruit of a theology that is not anything close to what Jesus taught.

I see you've either ignored/rejected John 10:28 or you are just ignorant of it.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 6, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
I have never yet met an OSAS believer who got beyond they are saved no matter how they behave to others.

It's rather arrogant to make such judgments about others, esp since you really don't know any of those who post. Like me. You have no basis for your judgmental rot.

The love of Christ or the love of the brethen is repeatedly absent.

Was the love of Christ absent in the apostle Paul in his advise to Titus in 1:13 - This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

The red words are a command to Titus to those who teach false doctrine.

The blue words are the goal of why some need sharp rebuking.

And loving God is also merely an optional extra for OSAS believers in my experience. They are going to Heaven and that is the end of their theology. That is pretty much what I run into.

Well, that's sure not true about me. My theology is deep and wide.

Your repeated painting with a very wide brush those who believe OSAS is uncalled for.

I am very sorry for them.

You should focus your sorrow on yourself, for rejecting what Jesus taught so clearly about recipients of eternal life. They shall never perish.

It would be a shock to hear that if there were no salvation but this life is all there was, I would still love God and follow Jesus the same. NO OSAS believer can even consider such a thing as salvation is all they want.

There is no basis for such a wild and irresponsible statement. The OSAS believers I know are fully aware of the promise of eternal reward for faithful and obedient service.

Yet, when I engage Arminians, I find that none of them so far even understand anything about what "fellowship with the Lord" means, or how to get back into fellowship with the Lord.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 7, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
Yes, and I understand what He meant. He wasn't talking about one's status of salvation.

So can we conclude that for you, salvation has nothing to do with forgiveness of sin? That is, you think one can commit sin that God has not forgiven and one still goes to Heaven? Is salvation for you salvation from hell not salvation from sin?

Given 1 John 1:9 and subject of "fellowship" the basis of 1 John 1, it should be clear that a believer who sins and doesn't confess won't be forgiven or cleansed. That is about being OUT OF FELLOWSHIP, just like one spouse so offending the other spouse as to break harmony and fellowship within the marriage relationship.

So being "out of fellowship" (nothing John says is his subject) doesn't affect one's salvation? When Jesus said "depart from me I" because they were out of fellowship, they did not lose their salvation? Didn't those who fell away from the faith experience "out of fellowship" that Jesus warned about? Was he just warning not to be out of fellowship? Not much of a warning. But if was warning about losing their fellowship to end in permananet "out of fellowship," well, that was a warning to heed. That is warning OSAS believers ignore.

Verses about sin resulting in our prayers not being heard:
Psa 66:18 - If I had cherished sin in my heart, the Lord would not have listened;

Isa 59:2 - But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

These verses speak to loss of fellowship with the Lord due to unconfessed sin.

But you have to invent "out of fellowship" as the sole result of sin, something that is merely inconvient like losing rewards. You ignore the permanent out of fellowship that is looming for such.

No, I cannot say that. Why would I? I know what the Bible says. "whoever believes POSSESES eternal life" (John 5:24, 6;47, 1 John 5:13). And "recipients of eternal life shall never perish" (John 10:28)

And you ignore the verses that tell of falling away, impossible to restore to an not "out of fellowship" state. I know the few you OSASers love. And I know the many you ignore.

Are you going to argue against these clear verses?

They are balanced by the warnings to endure for "he who endures will be saved." Sorry but are you going to ignore the clear requirement of needing to endure? The clear requirement of needing to forgive others? I can go on and on about the many verses you have to ignore.

For fellowship, yes, of course.

But for salvation? No, absolutely not.

I guess salvation is just salvation from hell for you. Salvation from and right relationship with God seem to be optional extras.

Did you take a personal survey of all OSAS people? Sounds pretty haughty, imho.

Then you do not know what haughty is. You sometimes use words that indicate a haughty feeling about your own position. I will point it out next time.

What you take as insults are just plain facts from the Bible. Are you not aware of Titus 1:13 - This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith.

The Bible has nothing to say about my character to me as I was not living at the time. But it is clear to me that you blacken out a number of verses that require you to do something (like forgive) others and redefine "salvation" so that you can assure yourself you are saved no matter how you behave. This is very common in OSAS and Calvinists.

Well, eternal life IS conditioned upon believing, per John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47, 11:25-27, 20:31, 1 John 5:11, 13.

It is conditioned upon being forgiven of sins and in relationship with God. John 17:3 This is eternal life, that they know YOU, the One True God.

But, once having received eternal life, the recipient SHALL NEVER PERISH. John 10:28

IF they no longer have it because they fell away from the faith, shipwreaked their faith, etc., they will perish.

}
Yeah, go ahead and just ignore the warnings about God's PAINFUL discipline (Heb 12:11). A believer who thinks they can keep one foot "in the world" will realize painfully just how wrong they are.

Huh? Where does this come from? We never discussed this.

You were doing just fine until you added "hence salvation". This is confused. There is the forgiveness of sin tied to the cross, and then there is forgiveness of sin for fellowship.

Where are these two difference forgiveness of sins discussed by Jesus or anyone who wrote the Bible? Jesus said eternal life is knowing God. He did not make the difference you make.

The forgiveness tied to the cross is part of the salvation package. The forgiveness tied to fellowship is related to one's spiritual growth (or lack thereof).

Where is the verse that says "forgivness is tied to the cross?"

Seems you expect and suspect some rather strange things.

I am a scientist and notice patterns and consistancies. Never knew this until I started talking on line to OSAS believers. Their theological position was always the same and the verses they used always the same. They ignore or had no answer to verses that warned them. They ignored anything they were required by God to do including repent or even love God in some. One actually said she did not need to love God. She just needed to believe. I think she meant she just needed to believe OSAS teaching.

I see you've either ignored/rejected John 10:28 or you are just ignorant of it.

You should try to stop being personally insulting as though I am ignorant of John 10:28. But for your sake and those tittering on the brink of embracing OSAS, I will discuss it.

My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.

First, the definition or description of his sheep are those that follow him. FOLLOW HIM. That means obey Him. (IF you love me you will keep my teaching.) THis is a continued requirement to be a sheep. If and only if one is doing this in daily choices, one is given eternal life, which, as Jesus said, is to know God. It is not fire insurance. Now no one can snatch them out of his hand but they are always free to leave the flock. Snatching out is OUTSIDE OF the sheep. He did not say the sheep are not free to leave anymore. This is the OSAS position and it is not Biblical. You can leave. JEsus gave us reasons why people leave the faith and fall away and are lost eteranlly if they do not repent. That is the Biblical position. There are no promises that you can never leave the flock. If that saves even a single believer from the dangerous OSAS promises I would be very glad.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 7, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
So can we conclude that for you, salvation has nothing to do with forgiveness of sin?

I explained all that in post #391.

Based on faith in Christ, all our sins were forgiven "once for all". See heb 7-10 for that phrase. It occurs often in connection with His sacrifice on the cross, for sins.

However, the believer continues to sin. Sin from His child offends Him, and breaks fellowship. The ONLY WAY to restore fellowship with God is by confession of that sin. 1 John 1:9

Arminians confuse confession for fellowship and believing for salvation.

That is, you think one can commit sin that God has not forgiven and one still goes to Heaven?

This is a really dumb question, for it reveals your total ignorance of how salvation is obtained. From your question, salvation is held quite tentatively, and even 1 sin that the believer doesn't confess leads to the lake of fire.

And that, madam, goes DIRECTLY AGAINST what the Lord Jesus Christ said in John 10:28.

He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. And you simply don't believe Him.

Is salvation for you salvation from hell not salvation from sin?

It's that and more.

Past tense salvation: we have been saved from the penalty of sin (going to hell). Justification.

Present tense salvation: we are being saved from the power of sin. Sanctification.

Future tense salvation: we will be saved from the presence of sin. Glorification.

So being "out of fellowship" (nothing John says is his subject) doesn't affect one's salvation?

What are you talking about. John used THAT WORD 4 times in 3 verses in 1 John 1. Maybe you should actually read the verses I cite.

And, if fellowship affects one's salvation, where are the verses?

I'll give you a great parallel example of the difference between fellowship and relationship.

The Bible uses language of marriage in our relationship with Christ. He is the Groom, believers are the Bride.

Just remember that in God's economy, there is NO divorce in the institution of marriage.

Mark 10-
2 Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?”
3 “What did Moses command you?” he replied.
4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”
5 “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied.
6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’
7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
8 and the two will become one flesh.’So they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

With that FACT in view, let's examine the marriage relationship:

Are the husband and wife ALWAYS in fellowship? No. Either spouse can offend the other, and fellowship (intimacy) is broken. And that needs to be fixed.

Now, in our relationship with Christ, obviously He will NEVER offend us, but we always offend Him when we sin. And that needs to be fixed. The fix is confession of those sins. Per 1 John 1:9. None of this has to do with salvation.

To sumarize, our relationship with Christ is permanent, just like God's plan for marriage.

Fellowship speaks to the CONDITION of the relationship.

Just like in a marriage, there can be either intimate fellowship, or complete loss of fellowship (intimacy), but they are STILL married.

iow, fellowship is the state of the relationship.

The error of Arminians is ignoring or failing to understand fellowship, and viewing salvation as something that can be severed, like divorce. But God never included divorce in His marriage plan for mankind. Again, see Mark 10 for details.

Your view that any sin unconfessed will lead to hell demonstrates your failure to understand what happened on the cross. Since Christ died for ALL sins, and provides forgiveness based on faith in Christ (Acts 10:43), there are no sins that can send any believer to hell. That would be double jeopardy.

When Jesus said "depart from me I" because they were out of fellowship, they did not lose their salvation?

Huh? He never said any such thing. Read Matt 7:23 again. He said, "depart from me, because I NEVER KNEW YOU. A clear statement that this crowd NEVER believed in Christ for salvation.

How could Jesus say "I never knew you" if any of them had EVER believed? Have you considered that?

Didn't those who fell away from the faith experience "out of fellowship" that Jesus warned about? Was he just warning not to be out of fellowship?

Jesus certainly warned about being out of fellowship. In fact, John 15 clearly reveals how believers can bear fruit; by abiding in Him. That is fellowship.

Those out of fellowship are those who grieve (Eph 4:30) and/or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit. And when doing that, they CANNOT bear fruit.

Not much of a warning. But if was warning about losing their fellowship to end in permananet "out of fellowship," well, that was a warning to heed. That is warning OSAS believers ignore.

No, we don't ignore. But you're still failing to understand what fellowship even is.

Hopefully, my example of human marriage will help you think a bit more clearly.

But you have to invent "out of fellowship" as the sole result of sin, something that is merely inconvient like losing rewards.

Uh, "merely inconvenient"? Aren't you aware of the warning of God's discipline in Heb 12:11, which is said to be PAINFUL? Are you really that ignorant of God's plan for His children?

And as to the silly charge of inventing the condition of fellowship, I invite you to read 1 John 1. The word occurs some 14 times in the NT.

You ignore the permanent out of fellowship that is looming for such.

Here you go again; confusing being out of fellowship with being out of relationship.

Until you can properly understand the relationship betweeen "relationship" and "fellowship", you'll never be able to understand the spiritual life of the believer.

And you ignore the verses that tell of falling away, impossible to restore to an not "out of fellowship" state.

No, I've not ignored anything. But I DO understand them properly, which is impossible for you to do, since you don't even understand what fellowship is and means.

I know the few you OSASers love. And I know the many you ignore.
They are balanced by the warnings to endure for "he who endures will be saved."

You need to study the context for that verse. It's about the 7 year Tribulation.

Sorry but are you going to ignore the clear requirement of needing to endure?

I haven't. You simply fail to grasp many concepts of Scripture.

The clear requirement of needing to forgive others? I can go on and on about the many verses you have to ignore.

No you can't. You only think you can.

I guess salvation is just salvation from hell for you.

Well, hopefully, I have set you straight above with the 3 tenses of salvation. Were you aware of all of them?

Salvation from and right relationship with God seem to be optional extras.

If you really get that from my posts, then you fail to grasp English.

Where is the verse that says "forgivness is tied to the cross?"

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Heb 7-10 speaks of what He accomplished by His sacrifice (the cross) "once for all".

I am a scientist and notice patterns and consistancies. Never knew this until I started talking on line to OSAS believers. Their theological position was always the same and the verses they used always the same.

Because they have verses that actually say what they believe. Unlike Arminians.

They ignore or had no answer to verses that warned them.

I've always answered such questions about these warning verses. And what I've noticed is that Arminians are so stuck on "going to hell", even though NONE of the verses say that, they can't comprehend the issue of being out of fellowship, loss of blessings, and future eternal reward, and God's PAINFUL DISCIPLINE.

You should try to stop being personally insulting as though I am ignorant of John 10:28. But for your sake and those tittering on the brink of embracing OSAS, I will discuss it.

My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.

First, the definition or description of his sheep are those that follow him. FOLLOW HIM. That means obey Him. (IF you love me you will keep my teaching.)

So far, so good. :oldthumbsup:

THis is a continued requirement to be a sheep.

Oops! Now you're off the track. Where are the words that support your opinion here? They AREN'T there. Nothing about any such "continued requirement" to be a sheep.

Stop inserting your opinion when reading or quoting God's word.

v.27 is a simple description of His sheep. It's one more thing. It's a POLICY statement for His sheep.

Ever been to a restroom in a restaurant? Did you notice a sign on the door on the way out? Something like, "employees will wash their hands". Do you believe that every single employee ALWAYS wash their hands before leaving? If so, you are quite naive.

It's a policy statement to guide employees. That's what Jesus meant by v.27. There are NO CONDITIONS listed in v.27. No matter how much you want one or two to be there.

If and only if one is doing this in daily choices, one is given eternal life

I'm really quite stunned at your biblical ignorance. Neither v.27 nor any other verse supports your opinion here.

Here is what the Bible says, over and over, about how to have eternal life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Now no one can snatch them out of his hand but they are always free to leave the flock. Snatching out is OUTSIDE OF the sheep.

2 errors here.

First error. When Jesus said "no one" He was speaking of 'no person'. Are you a person? If you are, He was even referring to YOU. Even YOU cannot remove yourself from His hand.

Second error. Leaving the flock (meaning ceasing to believe) doesn't severe the relationship, any more than the stupid prodigal stopped being a son. Chew on that for a while.

He did not say the sheep are not free to leave anymore. This is the OSAS position and it is not Biblical.

Now you're confusing Calvinism with OSAS. They don't own the doctrine. And they are wrong, as you correctly note.

You can leave. JEsus gave us reasons why people leave the faith and fall away and are lost eteranlly if they do not repent.

Actually He NEVER said anything about being "lost eternally" if they fall away. That's only your opinion talking again.

Aldebaran · Apr 7, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I explained all that in post #391.

Based on faith in Christ, all our sins were forgiven "once for all". See heb 7-10 for that phrase. It occurs often in connection with His sacrifice on the cross, for sins.

However, the believer continues to sin. Sin from His child offends Him, and breaks fellowship. The ONLY WAY to restore fellowship with God is by confession of that sin. 1 John 1:9

Arminians confuse confession for fellowship and believing for salvation.

This is a really dumb question, for it reveals your total ignorance of how salvation is obtained. From your question, salvation is held quite tentatively, and even 1 sin that the believer doesn't confess leads to the lake of fire.

And that, madam, goes DIRECTLY AGAINST what the Lord Jesus Christ said in John 10:28.

He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. And you simply don't believe Him.

It's that and more.

Past tense salvation: we have been saved from the penalty of sin (going to hell). Justification.

Present tense salvation: we are being saved from the power of sin. Sanctification.

Future tense salvation: we will be saved from the presence of sin. Glorification.

What are you talking about. John used THAT WORD 4 times in 3 verses in 1 John 1. Maybe you should actually read the verses I cite.

And, if fellowship affects one's salvation, where are the verses?

I'll give you a great parallel example of the difference between fellowship and relationship.

The Bible uses language of marriage in our relationship with Christ. He is the Groom, believers are the Bride.

Just remember that in God's economy, there is NO divorce in the institution of marriage.

Mark 10-
2 Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?”
3 “What did Moses command you?” he replied.
4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”
5 “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied.
6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’
7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,
8 and the two will become one flesh.’So they are no longer two, but one flesh.
9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

With that FACT in view, let's examine the marriage relationship:

Are the husband and wife ALWAYS in fellowship? No. Either spouse can offend the other, and fellowship (intimacy) is broken. And that needs to be fixed.

Now, in our relationship with Christ, obviously He will NEVER offend us, but we always offend Him when we sin. And that needs to be fixed. The fix is confession of those sins. Per 1 John 1:9. None of this has to do with salvation.

To sumarize, our relationship with Christ is permanent, just like God's plan for marriage.

Fellowship speaks to the CONDITION of the relationship.

Just like in a marriage, there can be either intimate fellowship, or complete loss of fellowship (intimacy), but they are STILL married.

iow, fellowship is the state of the relationship.

The error of Arminians is ignoring or failing to understand fellowship, and viewing salvation as something that can be severed, like divorce. But God never included divorce in His marriage plan for mankind. Again, see Mark 10 for details.

Your view that any sin unconfessed will lead to hell demonstrates your failure to understand what happened on the cross. Since Christ died for ALL sins, and provides forgiveness based on faith in Christ (Acts 10:43), there are no sins that can send any believer to hell. That would be double jeopardy.

Huh? He never said any such thing. Read Matt 7:23 again. He said, "depart from me, because I NEVER KNEW YOU. A clear statement that this crowd NEVER believed in Christ for salvation.

How could Jesus say "I never knew you" if any of them had EVER believed? Have you considered that?

Jesus certainly warned about being out of fellowship. In fact, John 15 clearly reveals how believers can bear fruit; by abiding in Him. That is fellowship.

Those out of fellowship are those who grieve (Eph 4:30) and/or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit. And when doing that, they CANNOT bear fruit.

No, we don't ignore. But you're still failing to understand what fellowship even is.

Hopefully, my example of human marriage will help you think a bit more clearly.

Uh, "merely inconvenient"? Aren't you aware of the warning of God's discipline in Heb 12:11, which is said to be PAINFUL? Are you really that ignorant of God's plan for His children?

And as to the silly charge of inventing the condition of fellowship, I invite you to read 1 John 1. The word occurs some 14 times in the NT.

Here you go again; confusing being out of fellowship with being out of relationship.

Until you can properly understand the relationship betweeen "relationship" and "fellowship", you'll never be able to understand the spiritual life of the believer.

No, I've not ignored anything. But I DO understand them properly, which is impossible for you to do, since you don't even understand what fellowship is and means.

You need to study the context for that verse. It's about the 7 year Tribulation.

I haven't. You simply fail to grasp many concepts of Scripture.

No you can't. You only think you can.

Well, hopefully, I have set you straight above with the 3 tenses of salvation. Were you aware of all of them?

If you really get that from my posts, then you fail to grasp English.

Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

Heb 7-10 speaks of what He accomplished by His sacrifice (the cross) "once for all".

Because they have verses that actually say what they believe. Unlike Arminians.

I've always answered such questions about these warning verses. And what I've noticed is that Arminians are so stuck on "going to hell", even though NONE of the verses say that, they can't comprehend the issue of being out of fellowship, loss of blessings, and future eternal reward, and God's PAINFUL DISCIPLINE.

So far, so good.

Oops! Now you're off the track. Where are the words that support your opinion here? They AREN'T there. Nothing about any such "continued requirement" to be a sheep.

Stop inserting your opinion when reading or quoting God's word.

v.27 is a simple description of His sheep. It's one more thing. It's a POLICY statement for His sheep.

Ever been to a restroom in a restaurant? Did you notice a sign on the door on the way out? Something like, "employees will wash their hands". Do you believe that every single employee ALWAYS wash their hands before leaving? If so, you are quite naive.

It's a policy statement to guide employees. That's what Jesus meant by v.27. There are NO CONDITIONS listed in v.27. No matter how much you want one or two to be there.

I'm really quite stunned at your biblical ignorance. Neither v.27 nor any other verse supports your opinion here.

Here is what the Bible says, over and over, about how to have eternal life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

2 errors here.

First error. When Jesus said "no one" He was speaking of 'no person'. Are you a person? If you are, He was even referring to YOU. Even YOU cannot remove yourself from His hand.

Second error. Leaving the flock (meaning ceasing to believe) doesn't severe the relationship, any more than the stupid prodigal stopped being a son. Chew on that for a while.

Now you're confusing Calvinism with OSAS. They don't own the doctrine. And they are wrong, as you correctly note.

Actually He NEVER said anything about being "lost eternally" if they fall away. That's only your opinion talking again.

Thank you for posting this. It helps answer questions I've had about all this.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 7, 2019

Aldebaran said:
Thank you for posting this. It helps answer questions I've had about all this.

My pleasure!

PoppyB · Apr 7, 2019

I'm new to this site and have just found this thread. I haven't read many of the posts but going back to the original heading I would say that you don't necessarily need to love Jesus to be saved. As a new born baby learns to love its father so too do new born Christians learn to love their heavenly Father, just as they will learn to talk to him and know his ways.

What you do need to be saved is an awareness of what Jesus did for us on the cross. You need to be aware that you are a sinner and need his forgiveness and grace. Once you ask him into your life and are re-born spiritually then the love will come.

As a very new Christian I would hear people at church talk about loving God and I couldn't understand what they were on about. How can you love God? I used to wonder. But know I know because I learned to love him as I got to know him and grew closer to him and found out what he is really like.

Love for God and people will grow once you are saved.

Dorothy Mae · Apr 8, 2019

FreeGrace2 said:
I explained all that in post #391.

Based on faith in Christ, all our sins were forgiven "once for all". See heb 7-10 for that phrase. It occurs often in connection with His sacrifice on the cross, for sins.

You Need to read Hebrews 7-10 because it is not a sacrifice "once and for all your sins" but "once and for all men."

However, the believer continues to sin. Sin from His child offends Him, and breaks fellowship. The ONLY WAY to restore fellowship with God is by confession of that sin. 1 John 1:9

Arminians confuse confession for fellowship and believing for salvation.

Actually, OSAS believers think that have a legal promise of heaven no matter how they behave. Those who think we Need to have relationship see that as the Goal, not avoiding hell. OUrs is a love relationship. OSASers claim God legally owes them Heaven.

This is a really dumb question, for it reveals your total ignorance of how salvation is obtained. From your question, salvation is held quite tentatively, and even 1 sin that the believer doesn't confess leads to the lake of fire.

As usual, you feel to Insult me because you believe all your future sins are already forgiven so you needn't restrain your anger. I forgive you.

I think eternal life is knowing Him, the One true God and Jesus the Christ. I am not alone in this theoloy.

The rest I cannot address as I need to get to work, but it is a a wordsmith legal presentation so that you can claim that you are entitled to go to Heaven and God is obligated to do so. God, by the way, divorced Israel. They no longer have the Kingdom of God within their faith, he has taken it away. They no longer have the presence of God with them, He left. God hates divorce among men. He does not consider that it is impossible to enact. He divorced Israel. They are no longer the dwelling of God on earth.

FreeGrace2 · Apr 8, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
You Need to read Hebrews 7-10 because it is not a sacrifice "once and for all your sins" but "once and for all men."

That would be your opinion.

Maybe you could explain Heb 10:14 to me, then.

" For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."

Explain what the red words and blue words refer to.

Actually, OSAS believers think that have a legal promise of heaven no matter how they behave.

I know Arminians have a real hard time letting go of their very carnal ideas about how the promise of eternal security can be taken. But you really need to let it go.

I've been clear about the very real and clear warnings in Scripture of God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) for rebellious children.

So why do you keep ignoring that?

If there are any OSAS believers who aren't aware of the real warning about God's painful discipline, they are just ignorant. No different than non-OSAS believers are about their notions of losing salvation.

What you seem to not grasp is that IF keeping salvation is based on HOW you live, then you yourself are your own "savior". And it won't work. You cannot save yourself.

What does it mean that Christ saves you? How does He save you if you can screw it up and lose it? Did He really save you at all? No, He didn't.

If anyone can lose salvation, because of any sin Christ died for, then Christ simply FAILED to do His job.

Those who think we Need to have relationship see that as the Goal, not avoiding hell.

So, you see nothing about what "saved" means. But I gave you the 3 tenses.

OUrs is a love relationship. OSASers claim God legally owes them Heaven.

This is reckless. I've never met any such person who would claim such a stupid thing.

If that's your opinion of OSAS believers, all you've done is demonstrate your extensive ignorance of their position.

You have no concept of what grace means, either. God owes no one anything. Got it? So quit misrepresenting OSAS believers. It only shows your ignorance of their position.

As usual, you feel to Insult me because you believe all your future sins are already forgiven so you needn't restrain your anger. I forgive you.

What you really need to do is confess your sin of unbelief about what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 10:28.

I think eternal life is knowing Him, the One true God and Jesus the Christ. I am not alone in this theoloy.

I agree. That's biblical. Your opinion about losing salvation isn't biblical. It's just opinionated emotions over sins that really offend you.

The rest I cannot address as I need to get to work, but it is a a wordsmith legal presentation so that you can claim that you are entitled to go to Heaven and God is obligated to do so.

I don't make such stupid claims. Nor do other OSAS believers.

God, by the way, divorced Israel. They no longer have the Kingdom of God within their faith, he has taken it away. They no longer have the presence of God with them, He left. God hates divorce among men. He does not consider that it is impossible to enact. He divorced Israel. They are no longer the dwelling of God on earth.

This is totally unbiblical. Haven't you ever read Romans?

11:1 - I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
11:2 - God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel:
11:26 - and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

Please provide any verse that says that "God divorced Israel".

BCsenior · Apr 8, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Actually, OSAS believers think that have a legal promise of heaven no matter how they behave.

I feel sorry for you and several others
who are wasting their time.

Over the years, the FG has demonstrated that
he has no explanation for dozens of NT warnings,
except to say they refer to loss of rewards ...
whilst many of them obviously refer to eternal life!

So, why does anyone bother arguing with him?

It is because they do not understand evangelism.
E.G. Jesus said to present the Truth, and if they reject it,
shake the dust off your feet and go somewhere else.

You must PROVE you LOVE the LORD to be saved!

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Still an evangelist

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

NCC-1701-A

Senior Veteran

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Still an evangelist

Similar threads