You must PROVE you LOVE the LORD to be saved!

[BCsenior]

JN 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

A lot of people lately have the revelation that the
NT "believe" includes more than previously thought.

The Holman Bible says that believe and repent
are the 2 sides of the same coin.

If you include obedience, you have just reconciled
the 2 groups of NT verses re: OSAS.

And BTW, you'd best toss in endurance as well.
It's absolutely essential (I have a whole page of verses).

But, of course, all of this is for those who
believe in ALL of the NT verses!

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"My question is about whether your view is that IF one does "turn on Jesus for the world like Demas did" would result in loss of salvation."

I think that would be a yes.

OK. So you believe that any person who has believed, and has received the gift of eternal life, and has been sealed with the Holy Spirit CAN perish.

However, Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall NEVER perish. The words "CAN" and "NEVER" are quite different.

Also, 2 John 2 says: " because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:"

If you're curious about what John was referring to by "truth", just read 1 John 5:6 - This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

Do you think John had 2 different kinds of "truth" when he wrote these 2 verses? I don't.

A person doesn't give up free will upon accepting Jesus as Savior. They can turn their back on Jesus.

I fully agree with this. Of course one is free to change their mind.

What do you think about the parable of the sower?

Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I prefer the wording of Luke's account about the 2nd soil:
8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Many make the mistake of equating with ceasing to believe with ceasing to be saved.

Do you know the Bible specifically tells us who will be condemned?

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Since Jesus said the second soil believed, they will not be condemned, even though they fell away.

 

[ace of hearts]

A lot of people lately have the revelation that the
NT "believe" includes more than previously thought.

The Holman Bible says that believe and repent
are the 2 sides of the same coin.

If you include obedience, you have just reconciled
the 2 groups of NT verses re: OSAS.

And BTW, you'd best toss in endurance as well.
It's absolutely essential (I have a whole page of verses).

But, of course, all of this is for those who
believe in ALL of the NT verses!

What you're attempting is to add to what Jesus said. If you truly believe Jesus your life will be changed and following the leading of the Holy Spirit makes the Christian life almost like auto pilot on an airplane. In this analogy we're the airplane. Gal 5:18

That means Christians are to walk in the Spirit and not the carnal nature. Rom 8, Gal 5

 

[ace of hearts]

I said:
"My question is about whether your view is that IF one does "turn on Jesus for the world like Demas did" would result in loss of salvation."

OK. So you believe that any person who has believed, and has received the gift of eternal life, and has been sealed with the Holy Spirit CAN perish.

However, Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall NEVER perish. The words "CAN" and "NEVER" are quite different.

Also, 2 John 2 says: " because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:"

If you're curious about what John was referring to by "truth", just read 1 John 5:6 - This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

Do you think John had 2 different kinds of "truth" when he wrote these 2 verses? I don't.


I fully agree with this. Of course one is free to change their mind.


I prefer the wording of Luke's account about the 2nd soil:
8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Many make the mistake of equating with ceasing to believe with ceasing to be saved.

Do you know the Bible specifically tells us who will be condemned?

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Since Jesus said the second soil believed, they will not be condemned, even though they fell away.

I gave a qualified answer. I've also posted -

Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[FreeGrace2]

What you're attempting is to add to what Jesus said. If you truly believe Jesus your life will be changed and following the leading of the Holy Spirit makes the Christian life almost like auto pilot on an airplane. In this analogy we're the airplane. Gal 5:18

That means Christians are to walk in the Spirit and not the carnal nature. Rom 8, Gal 5

This is a bit naive. There is no "almost like auto pilot" in Christianity. Believers are commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18). Could you explain how that actually occurs? It isn't automatic. Nor is any command. They are to be obeyed.

If they were automatic, there would be no need for commands.

Further, Paul gave believers 2 commands:
1. STOP grieving the Holy Spirit. Eph 4:30
2. STOP quenching the Holy Spirit. 1 Thess 5:19

Can you explain why/how believers grieve and/or quench the Spirit?

A believer's life is changed ONLY WHEN they are IN fellowship with the Lord (cleansed of their on-going sins) and filled with the Spirit.

Can you explain how a believer restores fellowship with the Lord after they have sinned?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I gave a qualified answer.

And I showed, from Scripture, WHY your qualified answer wasn't qualified as a biblical statement.

I've also posted -

Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

I guess you didn't read any of my post.

However, Jesus' point in the parable of the 4 soils was about bearing fruit.

soil #1 cannot produce any fruit since there was no salvation

soil #2 didn't produce any fruit because of temptations/testing in this life, though they DID believe and therefore, were saved.

soil #3 didn't produce any fruit because of the cares of this life, though they also did believe.

soil #4 did produce fruit because they were faithful.

 

[BCsenior]

What you're attempting is to add to what Jesus said.

What I'm attempting (no, done already)
is to believe ALL of the NT verses!
Try it sometime ... maybe you'll like it.

BTW, I HAVE reconciled ALL of the NT verses
re: eternal security and OSAS ...

True saving belief = enduring faith +
enduring trust + enduring obedience
+ no habitual sinning (w/o repentance).

 

[FreeGrace2]

What I'm attempting (no, done already)
is to believe ALL of the NT verses!
Try it sometime ... maybe you'll like it.

Sadly, this poster doesn't really do as he says. I've shared John 10:27,28 with him many times, and he STILL doesn't believe those verses. He continues to believe that recipients of eternal life CAN perish, in spite of Jesus saying that they shall NEVER perish.

BTW, I HAVE reconciled ALL of the NT verses
re: eternal security and OSAS ...

Not.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy Mae, we all thought you know what this means!
~ Born Again Christian ~

Well I didn’t. But not knowing an acronym doesn’t mean one doesn’t know the subject. I was saved before anyone had told me the Gospel, before I had heard of being saved. Was still very real.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What I'm attempting (no, done already)
is to believe ALL of the NT verses!
Try it sometime ... maybe you'll like it.

BTW, I HAVE reconciled ALL of the NT verses
re: eternal security and OSAS ...

True saving belief = enduring faith +
enduring trust + enduring obedience
+ no habitual sinning (w/o repentance).

Where is that in the NT? How come the NT is full of WARNINGS if we not need to do anything? Where does Jesus describe faith as “true saving” and other faith as something else?

 

[BCsenior]

Where is that in the NT? How come the NT is full of WARNINGS if we not need to do anything? Where does Jesus describe faith as “true saving” and other faith as something else?

Da blue is all about DOING things
which are necessary for salvation
(which is a process).

 

[FreeGrace2]

Da blue is all about DOING things
which are necessary for salvation
(which is a process).

Well, go ahead and disagree with brother Paul then.

When the jailer asked him, "what MUST I DO to be saved", Paul answered, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE saved".

Pretty clear.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Da blue is all about DOING things
which are necessary for salvation
(which is a process).

Where is “da blue” in the Bible?

And OSAS is all about having to do nothing. That’s why it is popular. Deeds are only optional extras to earn rewards, whatever those are. One can not resolve “no need to take care cause Jesus is doing it for you” with “take care.” Those are opposites.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where is “da blue” in the Bible?

And OSAS is all about having to do nothing.

Not accurate, which is not surprising.

OSAS is ALL ABOUT placing one's faith and truth (same thing) in the Lord Jesus Christ to save them.

That’s why it is popular. Deeds are only optional extras to earn rewards, whatever those are.

Well, let me share 2 passages that refute this belief that deeds are necessary for salvation.

Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

One can not resolve “no need to take care cause Jesus is doing it for you” with “take care.” Those are opposites.

With spiritual discernment, one can easily see that the contexts are different. Obviously.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not accurate, which is not surprising.

OSAS is ALL ABOUT placing one's faith and truth (same thing) in the Lord Jesus Christ to save them.


Well, let me share 2 passages that refute this belief that deeds are necessary for salvation.

Rom 4:4,5
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation.
5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Eph 2:8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.


With spiritual discernment, one can easily see that the contexts are different. Obviously.

No one says to have to do works to be saved. You got a straw man argument.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well, go ahead and disagree with brother Paul then.

When the jailer asked him, "what MUST I DO to be saved", Paul answered, "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you WILL BE saved".

Pretty clear.

Of course “believing” to them meant more than giving mental ascent. Many died for their faith. That is doing more than any of us are asked to do, the ultimate and last “work.”

 

[FreeGrace2]

No one says to have to do works to be saved. You got a straw man argument.

I've seen it in a number of threads, mostly in the soteriological subforum. And I've debated it frequently.

The idea is alive and well among some.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Of course “believing” to them meant more than giving mental ascent.

I disagree. They understood the word "believe" just the way any Greek lexicon defines it. And, to be clear, to give "mental assent" means to believe it.

It is when someone doesn't believe something that they don't give mental assent.

Many died for their faith. That is doing more than any of us are asked to do, the ultimate and last “work.”

No one has been asked to die for their faith to be saved. We are, as believers, and already saved, commanded to endure in our faith, and to carry our crosses.

 

[BCsenior]

Where is “da blue” in the Bible?

This da blue I was referring to (Ref: NT)

True saving belief = enduring faith +
enduring trust + enduring obedience
+ no habitual sinning (w/o repentance).

 

[BCsenior]

Of course “believing” to them meant more than giving mental ascent.
Many died for their faith. That is doing more than any of us are asked to do, the ultimate and last “work.”

Many BACs will indeed die for their faith
when they refuse to take the mark of the beast.

4 passages in Revelation refer to these BACs
who will be martyrs by refusing the mark ...
12:11, 13:7-17, 14:9-10, 20:4.

And many BACs will submit to taking the mark
and will end up in the Lake of Fire!

When the families of many BACs face starvation
they will submit to taking the mark of the beast
and will end up in the Lake of Fire!