But that doesn't answer my question. How do you know you're in a relationship with Jesus? Have you ever spoken to Him?
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How do we deal with textual criticism?
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durangodawood
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There's so many other components to the Christian religion.
If its just about a relationship with God, Jesus would surely have stopped with "love the Lord". But he went on to command "love your neighbor as yourself". That should bring the whole rest of the world into Christianity, and not just stop at your own personal experience, I would think. The inner... and the outer.
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But this is the most interesting thing I've seen on CF for ages. Has God ever actually spoken to you? And if He did, did He actually say anything you couldn't have known already? What does God's voice sound like? A man? Deep? Loud, or quiet? Did He have an accent?
Or is it that just pray and feel good about it? Is that what "having a relationship with God" means?
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I know you were addressing SinoBen with this post, but I thought I’d put my two cents in, if that’s ok. You’ve referenced God speaking in two or three of your posts... I just wanted to point out that apparently speaking isn’t primary on God’s list of preferred ways to communicate; He has other ways though, if we pay attention.
I believe ‘good feelings’ are one way God communicates, unfortunately, believers and non-believers alike, abandon them rather quickly in favor of their own idea of ‘good feelings.’ That doesn’t mean it’s not communication; as I said, it just means we choose not to receive it. It becomes a relationship when/if we start receiving and paying attention, in addition to praying and talking.
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Okay. And the "communication" that you get from God - is there anything about them that makes you think they actually come.from God? Because this sounds awfully like a child talking to an imaginary friend to me.
Of course, I can't change your mind about this (horse, water, drink, you know) but I would think you'd be interested in knowing if it really is God you're talking to. Has God ever, ever, under verified circumstances, communicated anything that could not have simply been imagined at the human end?
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This is kind of like a hindsight is 20/20 observation, but the result of my ‘experiences’ usually serve as a pretty good indication of what was God’s communication, and how well I received it. Granted, discerning that in advance is key and that’s where developing a good relationship with God comes in. I’m not being sanctimonious; just trying to quit repeating mistakes I’ve already made is a challenge for me. God communicates with us all, even those like yourself, who deny Him.
Is there a difference? God is not limited, He can use our imagination as a form of communication too, all perfectly placed and at the right time.
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Okay. So there's no real way of telling the difference between "God spoke to me" and "I imagined that God spoke to me". This is more or less what I expected, but thank you for being candid about it.
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I guess that depends on what you consider real. What else do you expect... what would be a real way to you?
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Bit of a strange question, really - if you believe in God, surely you have reasons? And, as a reasonable and intelligent being, surely you think those reasons are good ones?
If someone asks you, "Why do you believe something to be true?" and you can't give a good answer, are you really sure you should be believing it?
Why, in short, are you a Christian? Honestly, now - is it because (as it is for most people) you were brought up in the religion you currently hold? I know nothing of you, of course, but statistically speaking that is a probability, at least in part.
If so, are you sure that, as an adult with full powers of reason, it might not be a good idea to examine the beliefs you accepted as a child?
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Fair enough. I was just curious as to what you meant by a "real way" of telling if it's God speaking to you or it's just your imagination? You're right though, I guess that is a strange question to someone who doesn't even believe in God.
Do you ever experience any higher thoughts, those that seem to be above your normal reckoning, those that are beyond your intellectual reasoning self so-to-speak, which bring you joy and feelings of love that are above the fray, maybe toward someone or for 'helping them/being helped' in a special way, or something of that nature? I believe that is one "real way" God communicates with me, and a reason to believe that He exists. Please keep in mind, it's as puzzling to me that you can't believe this as it is to you that I can.
In short, several years ago I ‘experienced’ the overwhelming feeling of God’s love and salvation through Jesus Christ like I described above. I don’t have to examine it or think about it... I could feel it then and I still feel it today. Again, 'feelings,' one way I believe God communicates with me.
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Well, IQ, that's all well and good, and good for you. But your experiences can be little good in persuading me of the truth of Christianity. After all, remember that people from all different faiths have experiences of the truth of their religion, many of them mutually exclusive from yours. They can't all be right - but they can all be wrong.
And to answer your question, I do certainly have epiphanies, moments of transcendent understanding and happiness. These are certainly wonderful things, and can be spiritually transformative (using the word "spiritually" to refer to my character and understanding of life).
But no, as far as I can tell, I have never had any experience which it would be impossible for the human mind to produce. If this is God talking to me, He surely knows this, and He surely knows the ways that He could communicate with me if He really desired me to believe in Him.
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Thank you.
No, I’m not trying to persuade you... I’m just enjoying our conversation, being honest and appreciating your honesty. Your faith, or lack thereof, is your business. The explanation for different faiths is a difficult one for sure, and the right and wrong of them has caused wars. I’m just thankful for mine, as it is with the other faiths I’m sure.
I can't argue with that.
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createdtoworship
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and textual criticism is horrible for spiritual growth, many of the textual critics don't even believe in the Bible. It's important to study lower criticism, but not higher criticism (unless specially trained, due to bias in the field of study). It's important to study original languages etc. But when you get into things like "the Jesus seminar", it is very destructive to faith in general. If I were you I would buy norman geisler's books on christian topics. He has some books against athiesm, but get the ones that are theological. An encyclopedia of apologetics, for example is a good resource. Also when skeptics ask, and when critics ask, and when cultists ask. His systematic theology is pretty good too. Here is a link I found in a resource on higher criticism, the document you can download:
Higher Criticism.docx
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createdtoworship
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I have seen many people read the Bible and get saved, so I guess it's who you talk to.
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createdtoworship
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the problem with following higher criticism, is not that it is not a valid field. It's that the field is permeated with unbelievers. The Bible says not to be like the world in any fashion. I don't except evolution either, which is permeated by atheists. Is evolution observable on a macro level? No. Can you take evolution from one genus into another genus, and replicate it under observation? No. So you can see the masses have been wrong before. The world in general lacks basic common sense. The higher criticism adherers, assume the Bible wrong, and reject the spirit of the Bible. So why should people who have the spirit teaching them, follow such people. Isn't the spirit a much better teacher? After all He wrote the Bible in the first place.
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Take note, all: if you want to study the Bible, make sure that you're a Christian - and, preferably, a Creationist.
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createdtoworship
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yes taking the Bible literally is recommended when reading it. Allegory, parables etc are less than 1% of the Bible. You should read it as any history book. This week I posted a thread proving one of josiah's servants in the old testament, as a seal was found with his unusual name on it, dating to the same time period. (archaology proves most of the bible, as there are hundreds of finds, if not thousands of finds validating the scriptures).
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Steve Petersen
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So you keep saying. Because a document is correct about SOME history does not mean it is accurate about ALL history, let alone accurate about the miraculous.
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