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If you could actually identify even one of these people, you might have a case.
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If you are Israel
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If you could actually identify even one of these people, you might have a case.
Justified112
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Not saying there are two peoples of God. I am saying that the Bible NEVER refers to the Church as Israel.
God's promises to Israel cannot be transferred to the Church. If God did that, then He is not faithful to do all He said to Israel. If God discarded biblical Israel and any of those promises were not fulfilled to them, then we cannot trust God to fulfill the promises He has made to us. We have no guarantee that God won't renege on us some time in the future.
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Justified112
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The modern state of Israel is a direct fulfillment of Bible prophecy. We are seeing Ezekiel 36 come to pass.
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Justified112
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Sorry, but I hope you are just being sarcastic. The prophecy has to do with Israel as a theocracy which will happen in the future. Jesus is the rightful ruler who will reign over Israel during His millennial kingdom.
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See my post #156 for the scriptural refutation of this spurious claim.
At what point do you say these 3000 people STOPPED being Biblical Israel and therefore ceased being Heirs to God's Promises to Israel?:
Acts 2:41
Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.
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With God, anything is possible.
Golda Meir? LOL
Covenant (biblical) - Wikipedia
Davidic covenant
See also: David § Jerusalem and the Davidic covenant
The Davidic covenant[2Sam 7] establishes David and his descendants as the kings of the united monarchy of Israel[Jer 33:17–21] (which included Judah). The Davidic covenant is an important element in Jewish messianism and Christian theology.
In Jewish eschatology, the messiah is believed to be a future Jewish king from the Davidic line, who will be anointed with holy anointing oil, gather the Jews back into the Land of Israel, usher in an era of peace, build the Third Temple, have a male heir, re-institute the Sanhedrin and rule the Jewish people during the Messianic Age.
Christian view
Christian theologian John F. Walvoord maintains that the Davidic covenant deserves an important place in determining the purposes of God and that its exegesis confirms the doctrine of a future reign of Christ on earth.[19]
While Jewish theologians have always held that Jesus did not fulfill the expectations of a Jewish messiah, Dispensational (historically-grammatically literal) Biblical theologians are almost unanimous that Jesus will fully fulfill the Davidic covenant, the provisions of which Walvoord lists as:
- David is to have a child, yet to be born, who shall succeed him and establish his kingdom.
- A son (Solomon) shall build the temple instead of David.
- The throne of his kingdom shall be established forever.
- The throne will not be taken away from him (Solomon) even though his sins justify chastisement.
- David’s house, throne, and kingdom shall be established forever (2 Samuel 7:16).[19]
Generally, Christians believe that the New Covenant was instituted at the Last Supper as part of the Eucharist, which in the Gospel of John includes the New Commandment. A connection between the Blood of Christ and the New Covenant is seen in most modern English translations of the New Testament[20] with the saying: "this cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood".[21]
Christians see Jesus as the mediator of this New Covenant, and that his blood, shed at his crucifixion is the required blood of the covenant: as with all covenants between God and man described in the Bible, the New Covenant is considered "a bond in blood sovereignly administered by God".[22] It has been theorized that the New Covenant is the Law of Christ as spoken during his Sermon on the Mount.[23]
Islamic view
The Mosaic covenant is referred to in a number of place in the Quran[Quran 2:63][Quran 2:83-84][Quran 2:93][Quran 4:154] as a reminder for the Jews, of whom two tribes inhabited Medina at the time of Muhammad.
The verses also mention particular commandments of the Decalogue and, in God's words, admonishes the Jews for being insolent about it and displaying violence against the prophets[Quran 4:155][Quran 5:70] even though they agreed to keep them at the time the covenant was made.
The Quran also states how God cursed the Children of Israel and made them suffer for breaking the covenant[Quran 4:155][Quran 5:13] while also mentioning other covenants such a prophetic covenant with the Israelites in Quran 3:81, the Noahic and Abrahamic covenants in Quran 33:7, and in Quran 5:14 and Quran 7:169 a covenant made with the followers of Jesus (apparently very different from how Christians interpret it), who likewise failed to observe it following their own desires.
===========================================
What is the purpose of the thousand-year reign of Christ?
[QUOTE="Quasar92, post: 71505556, member: 389817"]The Millennium (also known as the Millennial Kingdom) is the 1,000-year reign of Jesus after the Tribulation and before all the people of the world are sent to either heaven or hell. Jesus will reign as king over Israel as well as all the nations of the world (Isaiah 2:4; 42:1). The world will live in peace (Isaiah 11:6–9; 32:18), Satan will be bound (Revelation 20:1–3), and, at the beginning, everyone will worship God (Isaiah 2:2–3). The purpose of the 1,000-year reign is to fulfill promises God made to the world that cannot be fulfilled while Satan is free and humans have political authority. Some of these promises, called covenants, were given specifically to Israel. Others were given to Jesus, the nations of the world, and creation. All of these will be fulfilled during Jesus’ 1,000-year reign.
The Palestinian Covenant, also called the Land Covenant (Deuteronomy 30:1-10)
God has already fulfilled the personal aspects of the Abrahamic Covenant; Abraham did go to the Promised Land, he did have many descendants, and he is the forefather of many nations. Several hundred years after Abraham, Joshua led the Israelites to claim ownership of the Promised Land. But Israel has never possessed the specific boundaries that God promised in Genesis 15:18–20 and Numbers 34:1-12. Not even Solomon ruled over this particular area (1 Kings 4:21–24). Although he did reign from the River of Egypt to the Euphrates, he did not hold the area from Mount Hor to Hazarenan (Numbers 34:7–9)—into present-day Lebanon and Syria. In addition, the covenant God made with Abraham was that he and his descendants would have the land for eternity (Genesis 13:15; 17:8; Ezekiel 16:60). The current Israeli state may be a step in this direction, but they still do not possess the boundaries God laid out.
The Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7)
God’s covenant with David was that his line would never die out and that David’s heir would sit on the throne of Israel forever (2 Samuel 7:16). Biblical scholars agree that Jesus is the fulfillment of this covenant—one of the reasons His genealogy is given for both His step-father (Matthew 1:1–17) and His mother (Luke 3:23–38). The Jews understood this when they laid down palm branches and their cloaks as Jesus rode into Jerusalem (Matthew 21:1–17). They expected Him to be a military/political leader that would liberate them from the Romans and make Israel a great nation again. But they didn’t understand the nature of Jesus’ work at the time was for the New Covenant, not the Davidic Covenant. The 1,000-year reign will be the beginning of Jesus’ eternal reign over Israel and the earth (Revelation 20:4, 6).
The New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34)
The work of the New Covenant—Jesus’ death and resurrection to reconcile hearts to God—has been accomplished. But we have not yet seen the complete fulfillment. Jeremiah 31:33 says, “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” Ezekiel 36:28 gives more specifics: “You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God.” Isaiah 59:20–21 explains that this covenant is possible because of the Redeemer, and the reconciliation He provides will last forever. This covenant does not mean that every Jew will be saved. But it does mean that Israel as a nation will worship their Messiah. The Old Testament prophets who spoke of this covenant, including Isaiah, Jeremiah, Hosea, and Ezekiel, all wrote that it will be fulfilled in the future. From their time on, Israel has yet to be an independent nation that worshiped its Messiah (Romans 9—11). They will be in the 1,000-year reign of Christ.
Other Promises
Those are the covenants God made with Israel that are to be fulfilled in Jesus’ 1,000-year reign, but the Bible lists other promises that will be fulfilled, too. God promised Jesus He will make His enemies a footstool, and that Jesus’ followers will worship Him freely (Psalm 100). God promised the nations of the world that they would live in peace with Jesus as their ruler (Daniel 7:11–14). And He promised creation that the curse would be lifted (Romans 8:18–23), animals and the earth would be restored to peace and prosperity (Isaiah 11:6–9; 32:13–15), and people would be freed from disease (Ezekiel 34:16). These, too, will be fulfilled during the 1,000-year reign.
The main purpose of Jesus’ 1,000-year reign is to fulfill the prophecies given to Israel and the promises made to Jesus, the nations, and the whole earth. God’s covenants were voluntary and one-sided. He promised He would bless Israel and restore the world in specific ways, and He will.
Recommended Resource: Thy Kingdom Come by J. Dwight Pentecost
Quasar02[/QUOTE]
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Justified112
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That's some pretty sloppy exegesis.
Rom. 2:27-29 is where Paul is speaking to an imaginary interlocuter (a common rhetorical device in that day). He is imaging what he has to say to the Jewish objections to his message and he is addressing Jews who think they are God's people on the grounds of their pedigree. His point is that a true Jew is one who is circumcised in the heart, not just in the flesh and live as a praise to God. He was not saying that Gentile believers are the true Jews.
Rom. 4:16/Gal. 3:29 is not even dealing with who is a Jew. Abraham's seed has nothing to do with that. Otherwise, you would have to count Ishmael's lineage as Jews. Paul's point about the seed of Abraham is that is NOTHING to do with being Jewish, but is by faith alone. We are Abraham's spiritual (not Jewish) seed by faith in Christ. That means that all non-Jewish believers can participate in the covenants of promise as Gentiles.
Eph. 2:19 and the commonwealth of Israel is the product of being the seed of Abraham by faith. The whole idea of God creating "one new man" in Christ and tearing down the wall of partition is that there is now no longer anything separating Jews and Gentiles in Christ. The "one new man" analogy would make no sense if Gentiles became "Jews" by trusting in Jesus. That completely defeat's the lesson Paul is making. Australia is a commonwealth of England, but Aussies are not English.
I Pet. 2:9-10 is simply drawing on ancient Israelite imagery to denote the believer's relationship with God. The application is broadened to include all those put faith in Jesus. It is not saying that Christians are spiritual Jews. The Bible never spiritualizes either "Israel" or "Jew" to refer to Gentile believers.
Gal. 6:15-16 is talking about Jewish Christians as the Israel of God. It is referencing the whole Church. "Israel" in the NT especially in Rom. 9 only refers to ethnic Jews. It differentiates between Jews who are Jewish by physical birth, vs. the true Israel, which are Jews that have been born again.
Phil. 3:2-3 is simply stating that we are the people of God by faith in Jesus. That the true circumcision is the circumcision of the heart.
No, it doesn't include you with Israel, at all.
Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of Satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/John 8:39-47),[/quote]
In both of those cases, the references were limited to specific groups. In John 8: 39-47, Jesus referred to His enemies among the Jewish leadership as the sons of Satan. He did not level that against all Jews. The reference to the synagogue of Satan refers to a group of unsaved Jews in the city of Smyrna who were complicit with pagans in putting Christians in that city to death. It was not saying that all Jewish unbelievers are the synagogue of Satan.
Yes, that's true, but all that means is that they are sinners in need of a savior. It does not give license to Christians to project their hatred of Jews onto God.
Nope that is not what I am doing at all. I simply recognize that if God is not faithful to do all He promised to ancient Israel, to restore them to their land and to restore the kingdom to them, then God can't be trusted. But God will do all He has said he will do. "Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever." (Jer 31:35-36)
The apostles were Jews who would reject the way you have taken mishandled Holy Scripture.
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Justified112
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Yes, end time prophecy is still in process, and not all of it has come to pass. We are still waiting for the millennial kingdom and Jesus' reign on the throne of David. It will come. Jesus is the rightful ruler for that Kingdom that is on its way.
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Justified112
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Seen it and answered it in full.
Why would I say that?? Your question makes no sense.
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2000yrs and still counting.......
Everything one wants to know about Zionist Dispensationalism but were afraid to ask......and for good reason! I call it the "spider web" doctrine..............
Dispensationalism – Grace Online Library
.........Dispensationalism has a pervasive influence not only extensively, but also intensively. It is usually the case that those who embrace its teachings as a system are affected in almost every area of their theological thinking.
So pervasive is its effect on those who have become its pupils, that even those who have come to see the error of its basic presuppositions testify that dispensational cobwebs have remained in their thinking for a long time after the initial sweeping took place.
------------------------------------------------
Evaluating Premillennialism: Part I – The Problem with Premillennialism by Cornelis P. Venema
By GOL | Dispensationalism, Premillennialism
The common feature of all premillennial teaching is the claim that Christ’s return at the end of the age will take place before the period known as the millennium. Whatever…
Evaluating Premillennialism: Part II – Christ’s Return and the Rapture by Cornelis P. Venema
By GOL | Dispensationalism
No evaluation of Dispensational Premillennialism may ignore its teaching of a two-phased return of Christ, the first phase of which is commonly known as the rapture. This feature is its…
The Lost Thousand Years Between Two Resurrections by Rev. Nollie Malabuyo
In the Parable of the Wheat and Weeds (or tares) in Matthew 13:24–30 (with its interpretation in Matthew 13:36–43), Jesus explains that the Son of Man sows good seed—the children of the kingdom—in the world. But the devil came at night and sowed weeds—the children of Satan—among the good seed. At the close of the age, the Son of Man will send His angels to separate out of His kingdom all lawbreakers and throw them into the fiery furnace. The righteous will then shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.
Learn More about Dispensationalism
- Dispensationalism: Rightly Dividing the People of God? by Keith Mathison
- A Primer on Dispensationalism by John Gerstner
- Understanding Dispensationalists by Vern Poythress
Dispensationalism: A Return to Biblical Theology or Pseudo Christian Cult – Part I by Gospel Plow
By GOL | Dispensationalism
1. Why Argue about Doctrine? Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they…
Dispensationalist Beliefs – Israel and the Kingdom of God by William E. Cox
By GOL | Dispensationalism
According to dispensationalists, God has two distinct bodies of people with whom he is working: Israel and the church. There is a separate plan for each of these two peoples….
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Justified112
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I am not going to read a bunch of articles, I don't have time spend on all of that. Just make your argument yourself. I am not going to respond to someone who does your thinking for you.
Does that fact that we are still waiting for Jesus to return to earth warrant criticism? Is there something wrong with waiting for Jesus to return, or does the fact that He has not come somehow detract from that promise?
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
(2Pe 3:3-4)
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Unarguably true. So pedigree doesn't save a Jew. Only faith and obedience do. Same as for Gentiles.
Spiritual DNA, not physical DNA.
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Justified112
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Because you claim the Church is not Israel... so I am asking you to demonstrate when these 3000 Israelite Church members STOPPED being Israel? Because, as you claim, if they are the Church, which after believing and being baptized, they most certainly ARE, AND they are Israel, again, because they most certainly are... then what?
Are they Israel or are they the Church?
or are they BOTH?
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And that was pretty fancy footwork
How is Christians affirming Christians ARE Jews a "projection of Hatred of Jews By Christians?"
That makes no sense...
Enrolling in USC is a terrible way to project your hatred of the USC Trojans.
DING DING DING!
& The Apostles were/are the Church!
Win-Win!
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keras
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We Christians are the Overcomers for God, His true Israelites.
Israelis: The current inhabitants of the State of Israel.
Israelites: True descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, or those people grafted in by reason of righteousness. Only God knows who they all are. Amos 9:9, Romans 9:6
Although the State of Israel does display restraint in their dealings with their neighbours, it can hardly be said that they maintain Biblical precepts, such as ‘Love thy neighbour’. And as for moral leadership, Israeli’s are a seriously bad example!
What then of the prophesies that say the Israelites are a chosen people, destined to be a ‘light to the nations’? We must be aware and keep in mind that the Jewish people are comprised of only 2 tribes, of the original 12 sons of Jacob. [Parts of some other tribes are assimilated.] Ezekiel 22:15 The Jewish Israeli people are just ‘the budding of the fig tree’, a first fruit of the final regathering of ALL the Israelite people.
We are told in many prophecies that Judah will be judged and punished for their many sins, but a remnant will survive to become a ‘holy seed in the Land’. Isaiah 6:13, Romans 9:27 Then, the great spiritual regeneration and rejoining of all the Israelites will take place; Ezekiel 37:1-19, and as Ezekiel 37:20-28 goes on to say: I shall make them a single nation in the holy Land and I shall pour out My Spirit upon them. Isaiah 44:1-5
Then the Lord’s faithful Christian people will be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10 and 12,000 from each division of them, will go out to the world, to proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Rev. 14:1-7, Isaiah 66:19
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Justified112
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The Bible never calls NT Christians "Israelites.
Those who are true descendants of Abraham are ethnic Jews and NT Christians (Jewish or Gentile).
Same can be said for many who claim to be Christians. But that has nothing to do with who "Israel" is.
Actually, a time is coming, the millennial reign, when Israel will fulfill its God-given prophetic destiny. This straining at who is or is not "Jewish" is nonsense.
And that has not happened yet. We are still waiting for that prophecy to come to fruition.
No, the 144,000 are actual, ethnic Israelite believers, not the Church.
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Yes, The remnant, though sometime small in number of people, is the true Israel that continues on as the people. So it was in Isaiah's generation (Rom 9:27-29); so it was in Elijah's generation (Rom 11:2-5); so it was in Christ's generation (Rom 11:5,7). The ELECT of Israel obtained it and the rest of Israel were blinded. St. Paul plainly says that the Israel that continues to follow the Law covenant of Moses IS HAGAR and, having been cast out, shall not be heir with the son of the free woman (Gal 4:21-31).
Sounds Good.. except you somehow also assert Non-Jewish Believers Can NOT participate in the Covenant promises....?
Which is it?
The partition wall was, specifically, "the law of commandments in ordinances" (Eph 2:15-16/Col 2:14,16)---i.e., physical circumcision, dietary laws, jewish feasts, animal sacrifices and other ordinances which do not justify a man yet had separated gentiles as dogs and unclean beasts.
When three thousand of them accepted Christ after Peter's sermon, they were still Israel and the whole house of Israel!!
Israelites that accept Christ don't cease to be Israel, as you would have it. Rather, they are the obedient Israel, the remnant of Israel, the elect of Israel. They were the church long before a single gentile was added to their number years later. The Church is Jewish and is Israel at its very foundations and origins (the Israeli apostles).
I hate to break the news to you, but Israel survived *exclusively* in the sect of the Nazarenes. They received with joy their promised New Covenant and obediently rejected all former biases against the non-Abrahamic families of earth so that Genesis 12:3 might finally be attained (Gal 3:7-9/Rom 4:13-18)---via the work of the Jewish Messiah. This sole surviving form of covenant Judaism is known worldwide as Christianity, the Jewish church gone global. The church always was the covenanted Israel, the church continues to be the covenanted Israel. The only difference is that the NEW covenant of Israel enabled Jewish fullness to be bestowed upon gentile people groups (Gen 12:3).
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