If you are Israel

jgr said:

The only jerk is anyone who rejects Christ's definition and description of His brethren in Matthew 12 and 25 as “whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

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No that would be one who tries to make their case using only the NT.

The scripture is very clear and the Bereans in Acts 17 removed any ambiguity. Any matter can only be established by the testimony of two witnesses and those are the OT and the NT. I don't care how many passages from the NT one uses, that is only one witness and fails the evidentiary requirements of scripture. The Bereans searched the OT daily to see if what Paul taught them was true. Paul's teaching became part of the NT. So the standard is established and commended by the Holy Spirit.

jgr said:

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – the Church:

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Only problem, it outlines that they are 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel. Paul says that in the body, there is neither Jew nor Greek. So they are not the same as the body / bride of Messiah currently. Following the golden rule of bible hermeneutics, the plains sense of the passage is that they are literally 12,000 from each of those 12 tribes listed. There is nothing in the context to suggest they are part of the Body or Bride of Messiah. Sure, all are redeemed the same way, but not all are of the same group.

I fully agree that the order that the tribes are listed in various locations has a particular meaning. The same for the names of the patriarchs from Adam to Noah which lays out the Gospel as clear as anything in the NT. Nothing new and original with all that. But that in no way negates that they are literal physical Hebrews.

jgr said:

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church.

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I would not argue one way or the other that they are part of the Ekklesia, but they are not the Bride. The body of Messiah is long gone before Revelation 14. It is arguable that the 24 Elders of Revelation 4-5 are the body of Messiah. After all, Peter says that the current body is a group of kings and priests just as the Elders do. King David divided the priests into 24 groups in 1 Chronicles 24, thereby setting the standard for priestly division. And Revelation 12 can be viewed as the body of Messiah being removed prior to all the mess on the earth. And all these also require substantial support from the OT, and it is most certainly in the OT in spades.

Copperhead said:

The scripture is very clear and the Bereans in Acts 17 removed any ambiguity. Any matter can only be established by the testimony of two witnesses and those are the OT and the NT. I don't care how many passages from the NT one uses, that is only one witness and fails the evidentiary requirements of scripture. The Bereans searched the OT daily to see if what Paul taught them was true. Paul's teaching became part of the NT. So the standard is established and commended by the Holy Spirit.

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What OT witness and evidence did Christ provide for the following:

Matthew 12
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

JacksBratt said:

I Don't think that this is talking of life in the millennial reign of Christ. Is it?

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If not then, when?
Do you believe it has already been fulfilled?

Copperhead said:

It seems to be more of a fanciful thought by those that will grab at anything to negate the Hebrew people.

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Affirming the fact that we are all the Hebrew people is the exact opposite of negating the Hebrew people.

Satan has been trying to find any way he can to eliminate them since Abraham.

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Then he sure screwed up!
For what more resounding defeat could he suffer in that effort than the complete, uniquidous, takeover of the human race by the Hebrew genetic code?

jgr said:

What OT witness and evidence did Christ provide for the following:

Matthew 12
50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

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that is your job to find out. You are making assertions based on that passage, so you must show OT support before your assertion can be considered valid. You are asserting that the passage proves that Matthew 25 is not talking about the Hebrew people but the believers as being the brethren. Now you have to prove it from the OT.

I showed from the OT that the brethren being spoken of in the sheep and goat judgement is a discourse on Joel 3.

So I have met the standard. You have not.

parousia70 said:

Affirming the fact that we are all the Hebrew people is the exact opposite of negating the Hebrew peopl

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Semantics. If all are of a particular group, then there is nothing that distinguishes that group from any other group. It becomes a dog chasing its tail. So it does negate the scripture passages that do show a delineation between Hebrew and Gentile all thru the OT and NT regarding eschatology.

parousia70 said:

Then he sure screwed up!
For what more resounding defeat could he suffer in that effort than the complete, uniquidous, takeover of the human race by the Hebrew genetic code?

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i prefer to look at it like YHVH kept His word that as long as the sun rose, the moon is out at night, the waves roar on the seashore, that the physical descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would be a distinct entity and would never be eliminated. The promise was not in a spiritual sense, but in a literal physical sense.

It wasn't that Satan screwed up, but was and will be thwarted at every turn. The Word of YHVH will remain forever! His Name is on the deal and He will not allow His Name to be besmirched.

Copperhead said:

that is your job to find out. You are making assertions based on that passage, so you must show OT support before your assertion can be considered valid. You are asserting that the passage proves that Matthew 25 is not talking about the Hebrew people but the believers as being the brethren. Now you have to prove it from the OT.

I showed from the OT that the brethren being spoken of in the sheep and goat judgement is a discourse on Joel 3.

So I have met the standard. You have not.

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By your claim, Christ's own declaration is invalid, because He did not provide OT evidence.

The word "brethren" which appears in Matthew 12 is the definition and support to its appearance in Matthew 25.

I believe that Christ's Words alone embody all of the support necessary to validate themselves.

It appears that you don't.

Best of luck in the last day.


John 12:48
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

jgr said:

By your claim, Christ's own declaration is invalid, because He did not provide OT evidence.

The word "brethren" which appears in Matthew 12 is the definition and support to its appearance in Matthew 25.

I believe that Christ's Words alone embody all of the support necessary to validate themselves.

It appears that you don't.

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Yes He did! I said it was a expositional discourse on Joel 3.

But since you are just wanting to be contentious, the discussion has reached the worthless stage. Believe whatever you want, I will do the same. It is not in my pay grade to sell you on anything. I just point out how I see passages such as these and follow the evidentiary standard established in the Torah and confirmed by the Bereans in Acts 17. If that chaps your hide, get some soothing salve and put it on whatever hurts.

Copperhead said:

Yes He did! I said it was a expositional discourse on Joel 3.

But since you are just wanting to be contentious, the discussion has reached the worthless stage. Believe whatever you want, I will do the same. It is not in my pay grade to sell you on anything. I just point out how I see passages such as these and follow the evidentiary standard established in the Torah and confirmed by the Bereans in Acts 17. If that chaps anyone's hide, get some soothing salve and put it on what hurts.

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The word "brethren" does not appear in Joel 3.
The word "brethren" does appear and is defined in Matthew 12.
Case closed.

jgr said:

The word "brethren" does not appear in Joel 3.
The word "brethren" does appear and is defined in Matthew 12.
Case closed.

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Yep, sure is. Thanks for acknowledging that.

Copperhead said:

Yep, sure is. Thanks for acknowledging that.

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Glad you agree.

shilohsfoal said:

Seems several people on this board believe they are Israel and boast .If so,then tell us which one of these tribes you are of.I myself would be interested iin the song you sing .

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If there is another Holocaust in the west, I can pretty much assure you that everyone to claims to be "Israel" will drop that title like a bad habit.

Nowhere in the Bible are Christians or the Church ever called "Israel" or this mythical "New Israel." That is nothing more than the false teaching of Replacement Theology.

Justified112 said:

Nowhere in the Bible are Christians or the Church ever called "Israel" or this mythical "New Israel." That is nothing more than the false teaching of Replacement Theology.

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Galatians 6:16.

Two peoples of God is the false teaching of Replacement Biology (RB), aka Biological Supersessionism (**).

Justified112 said:

Nowhere in the Bible are Christians or the Church ever called "Israel" or this mythical "New Israel."

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The Israelite apostles of the Jewish Messiah say I am a Jew (Rom 2:27-29), say I am "Abraham's seed" (Rom 4:16/Gal 3:29), say I am "the peculiar people, royal priesthood, holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9-10), say I am the circumcision-less Israel of God (Gal 6:15-16), say I am "no longer a stranger but a fellow citizen of the commonwealth" of Israel (Eph 2:19), say I was once not a people but now am the people of God (1 Pet 2:10) and say I am the circumcision (Phil 3:2-3).

Each and every one of these Apostolic statements takes a key identifier/distinctive of Israel and labels me with it. Meanwhile, Christ calls the disobedient genetic sons of Abraham the "sons of satan" and the "synagogue of satan" (Rev 2:9/John 8:39-47), and St. John says that those who deny the Son have no claim whatsoever to the Father (1 Jn 2:23)

The real "replacement Theology" replaces the obedient Sons with the Wicked sons as the true Heirs, as you seek to do here.

Such is the opposite of apostolic teaching.

Justified112 said:

Nowhere in the Bible are Christians or the Church ever called "Israel" or this mythical "New Israel." That is nothing more than the false teaching of Replacement Theology.

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But apparently, the UN establishing some country with the name of "Israel" in 1948 is.

usexpat97 said:

But apparently, the UN establishing some country with the name of "Israel" in 1948 is.

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Right... The LOYAL Subjects of Israel's King Jesus are NOT Israel, but modern day Multi-ethnic Christ Rejectors with no verifiable relationship to ANY pre desolation Hebrew person ARE Israel.

Is today "Opposite day" or something?

April Fools was yesterday....

usexpat97 said:

But apparently, the UN establishing some country with the name of "Israel" in 1948 is.

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Sure did and they didn’t know they were fulfilling prophecy right down to the month and likely to the day regarding May 14, 1948. Ezekiel 4 combined with Leviticus 6.

If the redeemed now are the “true” Israel , it is tough to reconcile Hosea 5:14-15 which is amplified by Yeshua in Matthew 23:37-39.

Trying to figure out when the “true Israel” rejected the Messiah to cause Him to return to His place before the church/Ekklesia came into existence and must acknowledge that rejection before He will return. Seems like a major conflict.... we are redeemed but we have rejected Messiah and we have to acknowledge that rejection before He will come back.

Yeah, there has to still be a purpose for the unbelieving Hebrew people. So they still must be a literal entity to fulfill the word.

Of course, there's the Davidic covenant. God promised David that his sons would always reign over Israel, for all time. So we can know just from reading the Bible that Netanyahu automatically must be a son of David. And what about Golda Meir? She was secretly a man.