When to look for the rapture of the church

ewq1938 said:

No it is not. Tribulation comes from Satan, wrath of God comes after satan's tribulation. Christians will suffer Satan's tribulation, but not any of God's wrath.



The comforting is comfort concerning something else according to the text. You are misapplying it to tribulation.

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If the GT is from Satan, then who starts the ball rolling by opening the first seal?

ewq1938 said:

No it is not. Tribulation comes from Satan, wrath of God comes after satan's tribulation. Christians will suffer Satan's tribulation, but not any of God's wrath. The comforting is comfort concerning something else according to the text. You are misapplying it to tribulation.

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1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

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Which is immediately followed by: 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The "comforting words" are immediately preceded by the rising, the catching up, the meeting the Lord and the being with the Lord. Very comforting words indeed.

And in the context of the whole theme of the two epistles to the Thessalonians the catching up takes place before all the verses about the wrath. Otherwise, where would be the comforting?

ewq1938 said:

The seals tell us what happens in the vario8s trumps but the GT is satan's wrath not wrath from God.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is when Satan's goes and starts the trib against the Christians.

Rev 13 shows the beginning of it, and part of Rev 11 shows the end of the GT. The 6th seal speaks of this same time, when Christ returns and how afraid the unsaved are. The rapture happens before the wrath of God is unleashed, just like Noah and Lot being taken away so the wrath of God can punish the wicked.

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Well, there are the 12,000 from each of 12 tribes who likely will convince many to trust in Yeshua. That would make them all believers and saints but that in no way makes the case against the removal of the righteous prior to the events starting. If the church is still here, why would YHVH set apart and seal 144,000 Hebrews?

YHVH used many secular kingdoms to execute His wrath. Assyria and Babylon for instance. Both of those were judgements of His. So it really isn’t out of line to state that what is going down on the earth is His wrath. After all, it is by Yeshua’s hand that everything is allowed to transpire.

ewq1938 said:

No it is not. Tribulation comes from Satan, wrath of God comes after satan's tribulation. Christians will suffer Satan's tribulation, but not any of God's wrath.



The comforting is comfort concerning something else according to the text. You are misapplying it to tribulation.

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You have your view. I have mine.

Still... no plan or idea for what you are going to do for 3.5 to 7 years?

ewq1938 said:

I think most simply are killed.

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I'm certainly comforted to know that.

ewq1938 said:

The comfort isn't about the tribulation and what happens then. In the passage it is about what happens after death that is comforting.

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I was being sarcastic, of course. The comfort is that believers will not face God's wrath (the tribulation).

Wherefore comfort one another with these words ---> "We which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." How could Paul have been more clear?

And:1Th 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath." Again, very clear.

And Paul's built-in warning about those who try to deceive them about what Paul has taught them:

2Th 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means."

Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians was a direct answer to their concern that someone had told them that the Day of the Lord had already come. But they were worried because Paul had told them they would be caught up before that started.

Paul's letter to them about being caught up to safety with the Lord comes before all of Paul's wording in 1Thess 5 and 2Thess 2 about the wrath, the Day of the Lord. So what exactly does "caught up" mean to you?

JacksBratt said: ↑
You have your view. I have mine.

Still... no plan or idea for what you are going to do for 3.5 to 7 years?

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ewq1938 said:

That is up to God isn't it? I think most simply are killed. Some survive according to Paul.

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_Dave_ said: ↑
I'm certainly comforted to know that.

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Rev 6:11
Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Rev 7:14
And I said to him, “my Lord, thou knowest.”
And He said to me these are being the ones coming out of the great tribulation
and washed their robes and whiten in the blood of the Lambkin.

The 1st century followers of Jesus were told they would be killed, suffer persecution, tribulation and be thrown in prison:

Luk 21:12
“But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you,
delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons<5438>.
You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.

Revelation 2:10 "tribulation 10 days"

Revelation 2:10
No yet one thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering.
Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison<5438>, that ye may be being tried.
And ye shall be having Tribulation<2347> of ten days,
Be thou becoming! faithfull until death! and I shall be giving to thee the crown of the life.

Matthew 23:34 `Because of this behold!
I am Commissioning toward ye Prophets and Wisemen and Scribes,
out of Them Ye shall be Killing and ye shall be crucifying,...............

Luke 11:49 Thru this and the wisdom of the God said: "I shall be commissioning into them prophets and Apostles
and out of them they shall be killing and shall be pursuing<1559>

ewq1938 said:

The comfort isn't about the tribulation and what happens then. In the passage it is about what happens after death that is comforting.

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.

ewq1938 said:

Not according to the actual passage. It's about resurrection and the afterlife with Christ, not the trials and tribulations and persecutions we are promised to have to face.

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OK. One last try because you have been respectful.

I know this gets mentioned a lot here as if it is the same, but the rapture is in no way a resurrection. They are simply not the same thing, nor are they meant to be.

I went to Blue Letter Bible and viewed 1Thess 4:17 in every version of the Bible that they have there. Every single English version as well as the Greek Interlinear uses caught up (harpazo) for that verse. The Latin Vulgate uses the root word from which we get the word rapture. There is simply no disagreement whatsoever about caught up (harpazo) being what God meant in that verse.

So, here's why that is important, remember, context ... Strong's shows that the word harpazo is used 17 times in 13 verses in the New Testament to indicate a snatching, a taking by force, a catching away, a violent take, a pluck, and a pulling ... all meanings indicating a sudden and violent action.

In no way literally, figuratively, metaphorically or in context does harpazo in these verses EVER refer to a resurrection. The fact that the rapture takes place in the amount of time that light traverses the pupil of the eye (twinkling) should indicate that it is about as quick a snatch as has ever been done.

One last thing ... you said:

Rev 12:12 Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

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This is why I lecture so much about using proper hermeneutic principles; one of which is knowing whom God is speaking to or about. It makes a HUGE difference.

In the above verse it's important to realize that everywhere God addresses inhabitants of the earth, earth dwellers, people of the earth, etc., He is talking to or about the lost souls, the unrepentant, the unsaved sinners -- never meaning the Brethren, the saved, the church; about which God told the Thessalonians they will be long gone before that anyway.

Much confusion about eschatology in general, and Thessalonians and Revelation in particular is solved by correctly parsing the pronouns and the descriptives about whom God is addressing.

That's about all I have to say about this topic on this thread, unless you wish to ask me a sincere question for your learning.

Take care, and God Bless.

eleos1954 said:

"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!'" - Revelation 7:9-10

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A victory-scene, the Feast of Tabernacles' antitype, the Christian Church in victory's vestments, ready to celebrate the final entrance into glory's festival.

When tribulation's end will be at hand and Glory's Kingdom will be revealed, then the blessed's multitude from every nation and tribe and people and language will be assembled before God's throne.

There they'll stand. For they'll appear in the vestments of Jesus' righteousness imputed to them by faith. They'll hold palms to honor God and Jesus.

John heard also their praise. Here's the saints' chorus in bliss, that of a shout, breaking forth from hearts that are emotion-filled.

They ascribe their savation to God, whose love prepared the world's salvation, and to Jesus, whose suffering earned salvation for the world.

ewq1938 said:

That is up to God isn't it? I think most simply are killed. Some survive according to Paul.

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Yes, it is up to God. He will remove His bride.

I just cannot get around this way of thinking.... that most will just be killed.

Picture your 12 year old daughter, 82 year old grandmother, or some 35 year old brand new Christian that just gave up a life of self serving sin...

Then, you tell them that God is allowing you to be presented to a controlling power that has you denounce Christ... or... get your head chopped off.

Seriously..... saying "that's up to God" .........is not going to cut it.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Rev 6:11
Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

Rev 7:14
And I said to him, “my Lord, thou knowest.”
And He said to me these are being the ones coming out of the great tribulation
and washed their robes and whiten in the blood of the Lambkin.

The 1st century followers of Jesus were told they would be killed, suffer persecution, tribulation and be thrown in prison:

Luk 21:12
“But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you,
delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons<5438>.
You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.

Revelation 2:10 "tribulation 10 days"

Revelation 2:10
No yet one thou be fearing! which-things thou are being about to be suffering.
Behold! the Devil is being about to be casting ye into a prison<5438>, that ye may be being tried.
And ye shall be having Tribulation<2347> of ten days,
Be thou becoming! faithfull until death! and I shall be giving to thee the crown of the life.

Matthew 23:34 `Because of this behold!
I am Commissioning toward ye Prophets and Wisemen and Scribes,
out of Them Ye shall be Killing and ye shall be crucifying,...............

Luke 11:49 Thru this and the wisdom of the God said: "I shall be commissioning into them prophets and Apostles
and out of them they shall be killing and shall be pursuing<1559>




.

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Nobody is naive enough to think that there will not be any believers killed. This obviously going to happen.

However, it will not be the billions of Christians alive on the earth today.

It will be those that come to believe, after the rapture, and refuse to denounce Christ.

JacksBratt said:

Yes, it is up to God. He will remove His bride.

I just cannot get around this way of thinking.... that most will just be killed.

Picture your 12 year old daughter, 82 year old grandmother, or some 35 year old brand new Christian that just gave up a life of self serving sin...

Then, you tell them that God is allowing you to be presented to a controlling power that has you denounce Christ... or... get your head chopped off.

Seriously..... saying "that's up to God" .........is not going to cut it.

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Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ in the verse above.

John the Baptist was beheaded for our faith.

The Apostle Paul was beheaded for our faith.

Peter was crucified upside down.

All of the Apostles but John were murdered for our faith.

The early Christians were fed to the lions and set on fire by Nero.

Did they have a plan? Yes. That plan is called the blood of the Lamb.
That plan protects our immortal soul, instead of our mortal flesh.

.

ewq1938 said:

God's wrath comes after the 7th trump, within the 7 vials of wrath. That doesn't happen until after the GT because the GT isn't God's wrath.

Any Christian will go through the GT when it begins, either making it the whole way or dying within the trib. According to Paul, the only person in the entire bible that uses the word rapture, the rapture is after the second coming and resurrection and those only happen after the trib has ended. Nothing will ever change the order of those events.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture! The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul!

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Ok. Tell ya what. You go thru the Tribulation and I’ll catch the train out of here and then we can compare notes on the other end. If your blessed hope is to go thru hell on earth, that is your call. If you feel a Protestant purgatory is the name of the game, I won’t stand in your way.

But for your arguments to hold any validity, they must provide supporting texts from both OT and NT. That is the standard established by YHVH in the Torah and affirmed by the Bereans in Acts 17. If an argument doesn’t meet that standard, then I give it no time.

The plain sense of scripture tells me that a pre-trib removal is in view. I am not into spiritulizing the texts to the Nth degree to tweak out some esoteric mystical meaning. Simple and plain works for me. And given the level of vitriol against the pre-trib position, it just bolsters that I might be on the right path. Both inside and outside the church, Satan has spent an inordinate amount of time attacking the pre-trib and wasted little time attacking the other positions. That seems strange if pre-trib is doctrine of demons and other names that it is called by many of the opposition.

I have been pre-trib since 1967 when I accepted the Lord. I had not even read any commentaries about it then, just scripture. The church I attended just avoided the topic. Yes, even before Hal Lindsey’s “late great planet earth” book started a renewed interest in eschatology. None of the opposing arguments have made a dent. I know in whom I have placed my trust.

BABerean2 said:

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ in the verse above.

John the Baptist was beheaded for our faith.

The Apostle Paul was beheaded for our faith.

Peter was crucified upside down.

All of the Apostles but John were murdered for our faith.

The early Christians were fed to the lions and set on fire by Nero.

Did they have a plan? Yes. That plan is called the blood of the Lamb.
That plan protects our immortal soul, instead of our mortal flesh.

.

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Try to understand what you are saying. There are Billions of Christians on the earth today. That would mean a systematic and outright execution of Billions of people...

Just how much time do you think that it would take to carry out such a task?