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Featured When to look for the rapture of the church

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by rockytopva, Feb 24, 2019.

  1. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    This event....

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

    Will happen at this time....

    That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. - 2 Thessalonians 2:2-3

    1. Falling Away - Which is now occurring
    2. Son of Perdition - The revealing of the Anti-Christ

    I believe when the Anti-Christ makes his scene (which is not that far away) it is time for the rapture prophecy to come true.
     
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  2. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    I am under the belief that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 refer directly to the actual coming of Jesus Christ, along with the resurrection of the dead. We will meet him in the air as he descends to earth, as we also read from Jesus in Mark 13:26-17:

    "And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven."

    We also read in 2 Thessalonians 2:1,

    "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together with him..."

    It is the one and the same event, there is no secret rapture and a seven year tribulation. When Christ comes back, he will gather his people from the four corners and meet them in the air before he descends on the Mt. Olives (Zachariah 14:4-5).

    "Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him." - Zachariah 14:5

    It will be the picture resembling him riding on a donkey, met with palm branches and praises from the surrounding residence, as he is coming toward Jerusalem. This time, he will come with a white horse ready for battle and we will meet with him.

    "After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, 'Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!'" - Revelation 7:9-10

    ...the antichrist is another discussion.

    But, I think the disagreement is strong enough to not debate something such as this. The important thing is to be ready and to have our lamps ready for the Bridegroom, regardless of where you stand on these issues.
     
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  3. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    How do work, “and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition” in all of that???
     
  4. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    I'm still working this out, tbh. The language of 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 strongly resembles the Great Revolt of the Zealots and Titus invading Jerusalem, slaughtering many people and destroying the Second Temple on August 30, 70 CE. Titus was recorded to have not only entered the Temple, but proceeded into the kodesh hakodashim (Most Holy Place), slashing the curtains and doing horrible things. Josephus, the Jewish historian of that time, writes concerning this.

    However, if I agree to this interpretation, I am forced with the complication of reconciling this with the yet to be second coming of Christ and his defeating the lawless one. I do not believe in full-peterism, I believe that it is heretical, but this has me thinking even more...

    I don't know, so I will not state where I stand yet.
     
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  5. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

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    Hello All

    Partial Preterisim doctrine has many problems. If you are to say that Jesus' prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem in Olive disclosure is 70AD then you must say that the first Resurrection has happened. In order to deal with Revelation many of this belief try and move the date of when John wrote the book. The Book is very clear in the opening that it is future events. That being said it cant be future for partial Preterism to be an accurate understanding of prophecy. Large parts of Revelation need to be moved to past tense. You must say that those who Pierced him seen Jesus return in the clouds.

    [7] Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

    We all have seen Partial Preterist state as much in this forum. They argue that is must have happened within the life span of those who played a direct role in Jesus' death.

    The reality is if you are going to argue that then 70 AD is too late Jesus' died in 33AD at the latest 27 AD is a far more likely date. So add forty years and all of the players are long dead. Pilate died in 38 AD............. Caiaphas in 36 AD.......Herod Antipas in 39AD. I have even seen others argue that those who pierced him were soldiers and they could have been involved in the sacking of Jerusalem in 70 AD. That would make them at the youngest 58 at 70 AD which means they lived 25 years past the average age of death at that time. For a Roman Soldier the average age was actually 25-30 most not even finishing their 16 years of service. If they did finish their service they were considered old and could not sign up again that makes them retire in 49 AD at the latest. So no they were not at Jerusalem in 70 AD.

    I could go on and on but you get a small taste. I will not even touch on what Amills see as the issues with Premill that is another thread
     
  6. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    What has all of that to do with...

    For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

    And....

    That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. - 2 Thessalonians 2:2-3

    ???
     
  7. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

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    Hi Rocky

    Did you read what I was saying. Perhaps I was not clear enough. In order for amill to be correct 1Thess had to happen in 70 AD....and thus by default 2Thess also must have happened. I thought I was clear neither of these events could have happened as they argue.
     
  8. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    The 70AD event has nothing to do with the Thessalonians.
     
  9. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    That's the rapture.

    That's Christ's coming after the Great Tribulation to begin his 1,000-year reign on the Throne of David.

    The raptured church will already be gone and will never know who the antichrist is as he is revealed only to begin the tribulation; after which Christ returns to physically rule forever.

    Much of the confusion and debate arises from people not realizing (or admitting) that there are two very different "comings" at the end.
     
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  10. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Just my thoughts and beliefs about these scriptures but I didn't come up with them on my own. They are the teachings of theologians such as John Gill, Adam Clarke, and many others.

    I agree that Thess. is talking about the resurrection of the dead but I don't think that is what Mark 13 is talking about.

    Mar 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

    He is still gathering His elect, the angels/messagers are His evangelists, pastors, etc. that are still preaching the Gospel and gathering His elect.
     
  11. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. - 2 Thessalonians 2:2-3

    1. Falling Away - Which is now occurring
    2. Son of Perdition - The revealing of the Anti-Christ

    How do you work in, “and that man of sin be revealed” in all of that?
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
  12. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    I'd be happy to answer your question, but I don't understand what you are asking.
     
  13. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    The rapture event happens with the appearing of the anti-Christ. Then we return with Christ to reign with him a thousand years. Any other interpretation ignores the, “that man of sin” reference.
     
  14. Just The Facts

    Just The Facts Senior Veteran

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    Hello Rocky and Dave

    Is this the same event as 1Thess 4:

    [40] Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. [41] Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left.
     
  15. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    No. The rapture has already occurred before the antichrist is revealed. See my previous post about two comings and the confusion that arises from not understanding the difference.

    "That day" referenced in 2Thes 2:3 is Christ's second coming; which, yes, occurs after the antichrist has appeared.

    Paul's purpose in writing the second letter was to reassure the Thessalonians that Christ's second coming after the Great Tribulation has not yet occurred. That's because they believed what he had taught them about the tribulation; and, as they were experiencing persecutions they thought the tribulation had already started. So, they wondered why they hadn't been raptured yet.

    The Thessalonians were, in fact, the very first pre-tribbers.

    Paul assured them in the second letter that their present persecution (tribulation) was NOT the Great Tribulation; that it can't be because the antichrist has not been revealed.

    So, in order: The rapture, the antichrist, the Great Tribulation, Christ's second coming to reign on the Throne of David for 1,000 years, then the new heaven and the new earth.

    Others disagree.
     
  16. _Dave_

    _Dave_ Active Member Supporter

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    The rapture.

    Christ's second coming at the end of the Great Tribulation to sort out the tribulation believers from the ones he will be sentencing at the Great White Throne judgment.

    So, no, not the same.

    There are lists online that indicate which verses apply to the rapture and which to the second coming. Understanding which is which takes care of a ton of confusion.

    Others disagree.
     
  17. eleos1954

    eleos1954 God is Love Supporter

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    "there is no secret rapture and a seven year tribulation" - agree 100%

    God Bless All.
     
  18. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    Partial-Preterism and Full-Preterism do not hold to the same things. Partial-Preterists are typically Post-Millennialists who see historical signification in many places that speak about the events that were to soon take place (such as found in Matthew 24). But, they do not deny that there is yet to be a second coming and resurrection, that's full-preterism that holds that it all has already happened. Do not confuse the two.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2019
  19. Jonaitis

    Jonaitis Pilgrim

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    I've held to this before in the past, but still on the fence as of now.

    Also, I don't see the office of 'evangelists' exist anymore. Those were held by men such as Timothy, Mark, Titus, Philip etc, who helped the apostles in their apostolic ministry in spreading the gospel and setting up churches.
     
  20. rockytopva

    rockytopva Love to pray! :) Supporter

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    This is important stuff as we are living in the time of the great falling away and the anti-Christ could make his appearance any day.

    That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. - 2 Thessalonians 2:2-3

    1. Falling Away - Which is now occurring
    2. Son of Perdition - The revealing of the Anti-Christ

    Biblically speaking... The day of Christ can occur any day now!
     
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