The Dreaded Dichotomy?

Moral Orel

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You can accept that something is infinite/eternal, but that acceptance is based on faith, since we ourselves are finite. It’s my understanding that it would take an infinite/eternal mind to fully comprehend infinity/eternity.

Now one might argue that our minds are infinite/eternal, but our bodies are finite, to which I’d be intrigued to hear more. Although, I know my mind began so I at least know it hasn’t existed into the eternal past.
I would agree with this. No one will ever know if they'll exist infinitely into the future. You would have to wait an infinite amount of years to find out, and that will never happen.

Though, I will point out that you don't know your mind began. You only know that you have no memories before a certain point in time.
 
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com7fy8

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When speaking to many, it appears to comes down to the following...

'When reading the Bible, what ever I agree with is correct. If I disagree with something, then I must be mistaken, or taking it out of context; because I am a mere fallible human being.'
I find that God does correct me, and I know well how I am able to fool my own self and not know it. This is part of why I depend on God :)

He is the One who knows if He exists and if He made the universe and us.

And if what we are doing has not gotten us together with Him, then what we are doing does not work, possibly. I spent a lot of time doing what did not work. Then He simply did what He does, I would say.

How would I explain what God does to prove Himself? He joins a person to Himself so the person is "one spirit with Him" (in 1 Corinthians 6:17). And this changes a person to be humble and honest and submissive to Him. Then He keeps changing our nature so we can better and better share with Him.

Possibly, it is like how you are walking with your child on a cold day. The child's hand is getting cold; the child is crying and confused and does not know what to do; so you take hold of your little child's cold hand. Then is when the child's hand starts to get warmer> first, the hand feels being warmed, then the hand is warm, and it can feel like it couldn't while it was cold. And then, once the child's hand is warm like your hand, that little hand can feel what your hand is feeling, and is strong enough to help someone else's cold hand.

In God's love, we can become more and more warmly loving and caring and sharing, "tenderhearted" (Ephesians 4:31-32), then even becoming able to feel what He is feeling. God is a conscious Being, of love which humans do not experience. So, because we do not experience how He does, we do not really know He exists; we certainly do not know how He is, unless we become His way in love. But He is able to so share with us >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

And what matters is that Jesus is our way to God. Jesus is God's own Son who suffered and died for us, like He did > Jesus is not at all conceited, then, picking and choosing who is good enough for Him. We all have been short of how we can be with God. So we need to first trust in Jesus, for salvation, forgiveness, and reconciliation with God > Ephesians 1:12. And then comes growing with correction of our nature so we are able to live in submissive sharing with God. And He changes us to become like His Son Jesus, so we are loving His way, too. And this makes us pleasing to our Heavenly Father the way His own Son is pleasing. This is the basic motive of God, for saving and adopting us > Romans 8:29.

So, in case anyone claiming the Bible is saying it is mainly all about us and things going our way, I would say this is not God's primary motive.
 
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com7fy8

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I'm speaking more about evolutionary biology, astronomy, archaeology, etc, in general. Not isolated one-off events, in which people use to oppose scientific endeavor as a whole :)

I am not able to merge, conjoin, or reconcile many discoveries, with the assertions and claims from the Bible. For me, it becomes an either or proposition. And since I have ruled the Bible out, as truth for certain aspects, it does not necessarily mean it's all bad. However, I do not look to the Bible to give me answers regarding how we got here.
I have studied science in a pre-med college thing. And now ones are claiming I was not taught correctly, about what certain ideas are. So, to me it is possible that scientists could be picking and choosing what they see fit to believe. And I suspect a number of ones claiming to be Christian might be picking and choosing. And I personally have no way, I would say, of finding out as my own eye witness about every thing which is claimed in science. And I do not intend to just assume that any source has to be above question. And, like I also would say, I am not qualified to personally test every thing others say.

So, I give it a rest, and God can do what He wants with me and others.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Might this include any scientific theories in particular, or all of them?

Maybe we're talking past each other here just a little. When I refer to the 'peer-review' process, I'm mostly referring to the various ways that peer-review can be applied in academia as well as the supposed 'repetition' of experimental findings among scientists, neither of which is wholly reliable even though necessary to help retard any mass faulty assumptions (or dishonesty) that could be come about in the scientific process.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Sounds like then you are basing your method of discernment on an unfalsifiable method? If so, seems peculiar that God would require humans to take a 'leap of faith' in such a manor?

No, there's nothing to prevent falsification; in fact, since Critical Realism is just as it sounds---being 'critical' of the modes, methods, and perceptions we each can have---there is room for falsification on some level. The sweetest thing about it is that on some level, there can even be critical application and scrutiny applied to various theories of falsification.
 
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Uber Genius

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So the comment "Need for a God," I presume means something like is the most compelling explanation of the various data we have from our external world.

So this would be tantamount for, "What evidence do we have that there is a God or gods, etc.?"

"So if an infinite-regress were shown to be true then we would have no need for a God." I take this paraphrase of your OP statement to focus on causal arguments for God. So we might still have good reason to think God existed based on dozens of other arguments that do not intersect with ultimate causal arguments (teleological, moral, transcendent, arguments from mind, or even God's self-evident existence).

But let's ignore those for now and deal with infinite regress.

This is a huge question in philosophy. For a good survey of all the issues and positions see:
Infinite Regress Arguments (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

So there are different arguments based on your underlying view of what one can know about the world and how.

"Metaphysicians have wanted to account for the very existence, or nature, of some things by appealing to things on which they ontologically depend: for example, a complex object exists and is the way it is because its parts exist and are the way they are; a set exists because its members exist; etc. (See Fine 1995 and Koslicki 2013 for discussion.) But of course the things the dependent beings depend on must themselves exist as well. Some have been suspicious of the idea that this can go on ad infinitum, with every thing being ontologically dependent on some new thing(s), and thus have argued for Metaphysical Foundationalism: the view that there is a collection of absolutely fundamental[4] entities upon which all else ultimately ontologically depends. Aquinas, e.g., holds that events are ontologically dependent on their causes, and that an infinite regress of causes and effects would be an infinite series of things each of which is ontologically dependent on the next, and this is impossible.[5] Thus he concludes that there must be a first cause of all else that is itself uncaused—namely, God."

How Leibniz sorts out such matters is as follows:

"There cannot be only “beings by aggregation” (i.e., composite objects), because this would lead to an infinite regress, with each being by aggregation being made up of further beings by aggregation, and so on ad infinitum.

Leibniz’s idea seems to be that if each thing depends on some other, there could not be anything at all in the first place. The thought is that ontologically dependent entities inherit their existence, or being, from that on which they depend; so if this chain of dependence does not terminate, the whole process couldn’t get off the ground, and there would be nothing at all. Leibniz says (1686–87, 85):

Where there are only beings by aggregation [composite objects], there are no real beings. For every being by aggregation presupposes beings endowed with real unity [simples], because every being derives its reality only from the reality of those beings of which it is composed, so that it will not have any reality at all if each being of which it is composed is itself a being by aggregation, a being for which we must still seek further grounds for its reality, grounds which can never be found in this way, if we must always continue to seek for them."
 
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Uber Genius

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Leibniz argued for God from the claim that there are only two types of beings (necessary and contingent). Steven Davis offers a modern version of the Leibnizian Cosmological Argument.

Premise 1: Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.

Premise 2: If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.

Premise 3: The universe exists.

Conclusion: Therefore the explanation of the existence of the universe is God.

The OP seems to be concerned with whether such a necessary being exists.

Leibniz get's to the question not by the fact that the universe begins to exist but rather the fact that the universe could have been otherwise. That is Leibniz starts by asking, "Why anything exists at all?" He doesn't need an explanations of all the parts of the universe but rather why is there anything in existence?

From that question he determines that there are two types of things:

Necessary things that could not exist which includes:

1 - abstract objects like numbers, sets, perhaps logic and math self-evident underlying foundational principles
2 - God

Further, since abstract objects can't cause anything, we are left, by conjunction, that the only self-existent things that can cause contingent things is - God.
 
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Uber Genius

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Specific Arguments Against the Existence of an Actual Infinite Regress of Events

Excerpted from:

https://www.difa3iat.com/wp-content...J._P._Moreland_The_BlackwellBookZZ.org_-1.pdf

Pg. 116 (103 in printed work)

"We shall examine two traditional philosophical
arguments against the existence of an infinite temporal regress of events, as well as scientific evidence in support of an absolute beginning of the universe.

2.1. Argument from the impossibility of an actual infinite
One of the traditional arguments for the finitude of the past is based upon the impossibility
of the existence of an actual infinite. It may be formulated as follows:
2.11. An actual infinite cannot exist.
2.12. An infinite temporal regress of events is an actual infinite.
2.13. Therefore, an infinite temporal regress of events cannot exist.

William Lane Craig and James D. Sinclair use the next 34 pgs to defend just that argument. See details and reply
 
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cvanwey

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Leibniz argued for God from the claim that there are only two types of beings (necessary and contingent). Steven Davis offers a modern version of the Leibnizian Cosmological Argument.

Premise 1: Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.

Premise 2: If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.

Premise 3: The universe exists.

Conclusion: Therefore the explanation of the existence of the universe is God.

The OP seems to be concerned with whether such a necessary being exists.

Leibniz get's to the question not by the fact that the universe begins to exist but rather the fact that the universe could have been otherwise. That is Leibniz starts by asking, "Why anything exists at all?" He doesn't need an explanations of all the parts of the universe but rather why is there anything in existence?

From that question he determines that there are two types of things:

Necessary things that could not exist which includes:

1 - abstract objects like numbers, sets, perhaps logic and math self-evident underlying foundational principles
2 - God

Further, since abstract objects can't cause anything, we are left, by conjunction, that the only self-existent things that can cause contingent things is - God.

Is this your conclusion as well? I guess one of my goals of this thread would be to hear of the conclusions drawn by prior study. Since this is a forum arena, and not an academic publication arena, I would much rather hear of your conclusion, and how [you] arrived there?

In this response, at least, I'm not seeing the 'rule out' factor for infinite regress, or infinite causal chains? Instead, it would appear premise two injects a 'prime mover' or 'first cause agency'?

In which I respond:


'Almost all of our modes of critical thinking are infused with both of these ideas: that we may work from first principles, a definite starting point, counting up from zero (or one, historically); but also that we may trace the causes of things to some point, and then later ask how that starting point came to be. But the two ideas are themselves in conflict. Which is true — that infinite causal chains are impossible? Or that they are necessary? Or are they perhaps possible without being necessary?'

-Annonymous
 
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cvanwey

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Specific Arguments Against the Existence of an Actual Infinite Regress of Events

Excerpted from:

https://www.difa3iat.com/wp-content...J._P._Moreland_The_BlackwellBookZZ.org_-1.pdf

Pg. 116 (103 in printed work)

"We shall examine two traditional philosophical
arguments against the existence of an infinite temporal regress of events, as well as scientific evidence in support of an absolute beginning of the universe.

2.1. Argument from the impossibility of an actual infinite
One of the traditional arguments for the finitude of the past is based upon the impossibility
of the existence of an actual infinite. It may be formulated as follows:
2.11. An actual infinite cannot exist.
2.12. An infinite temporal regress of events is an actual infinite.
2.13. Therefore, an infinite temporal regress of events cannot exist.

William Lane Craig and James D. Sinclair use the next 34 pgs to defend just that argument. See details and reply

Quite honestly sir, I would much rather get the points from [you]. I could read the entire document, and 'attack' points which are not relevant to [you]. Instead, would you mind presenting your case, using the points which appear to drive your assertion(s)?

[My] purpose for coming to a forum arena, is to speak with intelligent individuals whom present their conclusions - an exchange of concluded ideas to critique. And if asked to back up those assertions, possibly have ready available points to demonstrate or substantiate one's claim(s) :)

However, at the end of the day, I'm not very confident that any sort of philosophical argument may lead us to an ultimate sound conclusion, or final resolve, for this dichotomy - (first cause vs infinite in their various forms).

In all honesty, it appears much 'easier' to assume or conclude the former in such a presented dichotomy, as the later appears unfathomable? And as I've stated prior, there appears to exist 'proven' theories in the scientific realm which still demonstrate unfathomable to many, including myself :)
 
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Uber Genius

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Quite honestly sir, I would much rather get the points from [you]. I could read the entire document, and 'attack' points which are not relevant to [you].
You asked for arguments in your OP. Why are you baiting and switching?

This is why I don't take your inquiries seriously.

When we attempt to gain knowledge such as what are the best arguments for the impossibility of infinite regress, those arguments necessarily come for knowledge specialists (scholars specific to those questions).

If we were trying to find out which of the dozen or so quantum mechanical theories had the most explanatory power would we go out on the street and just survey the people who walked by.

Of course not.

We would research it and find physicists and chemists, and not just those fields, but specializing in QM, and not just PhDs but those who had spent their careers publishing about QM.

So too when you asked in your OP:

First cause/prime mover/ID/God/other (or) infinite regress?

I'm torn... Can anyone make a solid case for either?

And I reply with a reference you can examine, including a specific page, and that's not all...

I cut and paste the argument so you have to do NO RESEARCH AT ALL, nor real the entire documents as falsely suggested, but

And instead of thanks for the research and reference and direct response to my question with one of the most significant arguments against infinite regress in the most respected peer-reviewed journal by the top philosophers working on that specialty,,

I get:
"I would much rather get the points from [you]. I could read the entire document, and 'attack' points which are not relevant to [you]"

This is my argument. It "makes a solid case" as per the OP request. Stop the dodge. Don't misrepresent it as anything other than you asked for. Engage it or not.

But "Quite Honestly Sir," save the rhetorical tricks for those unable to recognize them.
 
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cvanwey

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You asked for arguments in your OP. Why are you baiting and switching?

This is why I don't take your inquiries seriously.

When we attempt to gain knowledge such as what are the best arguments for the impossibility of infinite regress, those arguments necessarily come for knowledge specialists (scholars specific to those questions).

With all due respect, I'm no longer interested in WLC's view(s). I've seen some of his debates, (specifically when he debated Sean Carroll), and no loner take his arguments 'seriously'.

It seems your evidence's are heavily weighed upon his specific positions.?.?.? This is why I asked you if this is [your] position as well :) Though, I will be the first to admit this may seem like an ad hominem, please let me explain. Craig uses the 'Kalam' a lot. And wouldn't you know it, the entire bases for [your] given response, seems to deal with the Kalam specifically, as the T.O.C. indicates for pages 101 - 201.

I'm not interested in the Kalam, by any stretch, quite frankly. Been there, done that... Not interested...

In regards to 'baiting and switching', I disagree. I just don't find much of Craig's arguments compelling. Let's just it leave at that.

If we were trying to find out which of the dozen or so quantum mechanical theories had the most explanatory power would we go out on the street and just survey the people who walked by.

Of course not.

We would research it and find physicists and chemists, and not just those fields, but specializing in QM, and not just PhDs but those who had spent their careers publishing about QM.

I label myself a skeptic. You label yourself a Christian. I have no claim to knowledge for such a topic. You claim to. This is why I posted the topic here, and not on a scientific panel. To [my limited] knowledge, I have yet to hear from a credible scientist whom asserts resolve for this topic :) However, the act of calling one's self a theist, demonstrates the contrary. If some derivative of the Kalam is 'the answer', then I politely disagree. So I again ask...

Is this [your] view as well as Craig's? If so, I politely disagree with both of you; and simple say... next...

If not, I would be more than happy to hear [your] argument, as you have a claim to knowledge for this vexing dichotomy.

And I'm not just surveying random people. I'm asking a large crowd, with a 'claim to knowledge'

Well, [you] are a 'non denom' Christian. Which means you claim to [know]. And thus far, you know because of...?

Oh, and thanks for providing William Craig's rendition of the Kalam Cosmological argument.
 
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cvanwey

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And after watching the video from post #53, I then state...

If such an objective being's existence was to be demonstrated sufficiently (whatever that may entail), then would philosophy classes continue wasting their time debating such topics?

They might instead shift their energy of focus to questioning why this discovered 'God(s)' IS the starting point? Because He says so....?.?.?.?.?.?.?.?

But as it stands, we are no closer to any of it in reality. Hence, the reason I now ask why theists here assert a conclusion, when the answer could be as simple as sheer demonstration of their God, using some means of 'testable' methods. And if demonstration cannot be objectively verified, (by whatever standard may be deemed as such), then how are such theists able to assert such justified truth?
 
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