ALL habitual sinners are NOT in a saved state

BCsenior said:

C'mon, he was pointing to one verse only!
Cannot BACs handle a little correction?
I'm not going to PRETEND that everything
written by a fellow BAC is perfectamente.
I'm into honesty ... and I have nothing to hide.
IMO, you are into covering over your errors.
This is what I've seen.
Sorry, but I'm into Truth and Honesty.

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You have been quite honest about your contradiction with the Bible and what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life. Thank you for that honesty.

Your opinion is totally in opposition with Jesus.

Jon Osterman said:

You are misinterpreting the verse. By "subjects of the kingdom" in your translation, Jesus is refering to those who should have been automatically enjoying the feast - that it, the Jews, the people of God.

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I explained the verse and used another passage with the same elements. If you disagree, then prove it. All you've done is voice a different opinion. Can you prove it?

But because they have not taken the salvation offered by Jesus, they are cast into the outer darkness, which is most assuredly hell.

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Please explain how they were even present at the feast then. Do the angelic guards in heaven mess up and allow unbelievers in, only to be thrown out later when they are caught? That would be absurd.

Remember who Jesus is taking to here. The centurion. He is making a distinction between unsaved Jews and saved Gentiles. Indeed, he even explicitly says in the previous verse that the Centurion has displayed more faith than anyone in Israel.

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Uh, the Centurion was saved. Otherwise, why did Jesus make such a big deal about his FAITH and say that He hadn't seen such GREAT FAITH in all of Israel.

Your explanation doesn't even fit the passage.

The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD:

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

"Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears." (John 9:31).

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”
(Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

We need to endure in our faith to continue to be saved:

"But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" Hebrews 3:13-14.

"Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him." James 1:12.

"But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13.

"...be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." Revelation 2:10.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Revelation 2:7.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11.

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Revelation 3:5.

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." Jude 1:21.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16).

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:


Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:



And here is a list of potential fallen believers:



Even Paul makes it clear that we can fall way. For Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

Maybe if it was just one or two verses, the Belief Alone Proponent might be on to something, but the sheer number of so many pieces of Scripture being against a sin and still be saved type belief is pretty high. Then there is the moral problem with this kind of belief, too. It suggests that we can do evil and yet be a part of God's good kingdom.

Jason0047 said:

The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD:

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Absolutely true!! Our sin offends God highly and the result is we have no fellowship with Him.

Psa 66:18 - If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:

Isa 59:2 - But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

That's the result of sin. God does not hear our prayers. Fellowship is broken.

The Bible teaches that believers cannot be out of fellowship with the Lord and be saved:

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Being cleansed of sin is salvation; If you were to contrast this with 1 John 2:4, it says that person who says they know the Lord and does keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

#8. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5).

Jason0047 said:

We need to endure in our faith to continue to be saved:

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Acts 11:23 - When he arrived and saw the grace of God, he was glad and encouraged all of them to remain true to the Lord with devoted hearts,

Acts 14:22 - strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith and that "through many tribulations it behooves us to enter into the kingdom of God."

Neither of these verses include any warning of loss of salvation if one doesn't remain true, or continue in the faith.

In spite of your two very long posts, with great verses in both, you have STILL NOT provided ANY verse that says that salvation can be lost.

All you've got is presumption.

What I have are the direct words of Jesus Christ.

Jesus said whoever believes HAS (right now!) eternal life. John 5:24, 6:47

Jesus said He gives eternal life. John 10:28a

Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28b

So, from the MOMENT a person believes in Christ, they POSSESS (right now!!) eternal life and shall never perish.

So, all your effort in trying (vainly) to prove that salvation can be lost, is nothing more than an attempt to discredit the Lord Jesus and try to prove Him a liar.

If there were ANY verse that actually said that salvation could be lost, then that would PROVE that Jesus IS a liar and the Bible cannot be trusted at all.

So, knock yourself out. Go ahead and try to prove that.

But, it can't be done. The Bible is just way too clear.

People see a sin and still be saved gospel because that is what they want to see. There is definitely something to gain in a sin and still be saved gospel. Obviously it would be whatever sin a person desires or craves. This is a selfish motive. God is not about allowing His people to justify sin or evil.

A person can serve both God and sin.
But Jesus says we cannot serve two masters, for he will hate the one and love the other.

Jason0047 said:

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:

(Here are a List of Verses):

Click to expand...

Actually, none of your list of verses says anything close to your claim here.

However, here is what the Bible says and very clearly:

Eph 2;8,9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Salvation is by grace through faith
Salvation is not from ourselves
Salvation is the gift of God
Salvation is NOT by works. Of any kind

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

Click to expand...

Given the context, it is obvious that justification here refers to being justified in the eyes of others, not God.

These verses speak to the fact that others observe the Christian and we are to live our lives without hypocrisy, so as to be justified in the eyes of others:

Rom 12:17 - Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone.

Rom 14:18 - because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval.

2 Cor 8:21 - For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of man. How could this be any more clear?

Col 4:5 - Be wise in the way you act toward outsiders; make the most of every opportunity.

1 Tim 3:7 - He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap. iow, be unjustified in the eyes of outsiders.

1 Thess 4:12 - so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody. iow, be justified in their eyes

1 Pet 2:15 - For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people.

1 John 3:18 - Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth. The exact same principle was described by James in 2:15,16.

Jason0047 said:

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Click to expand...

There is no doubt that a believer can cease to believe. Jesus said so clearly.

Luke 8:13 - Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

But, instead of "fall away" refer to loss of salvation, it clearly means to cease to believe.

From Jesus' parable, the testing/temptation causes these ones to lose their faith. They cease to believe.

Again, in spite of your extremely long lists of great verses, NONE of them state in clear words that salvation can be lost.

Batting average: .000

Jason0047 said:

Maybe if it was just one or two verses, the Belief Alone Proponent might be on to something, but the sheer number of so many pieces of Scripture being against a sin and still be saved type belief is pretty high.

Click to expand...

Except I just refuted your claims. And pointed out that NONE of your long list of verses says anything about losing salvation.

Jason0047 said:

People see a sin and still be saved gospel because that is what they want to see.

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Only on your side do people see ONLY WHAT THEY WANT TO SEE. You've still not provided any verse that says in clear words that salvation can be lost.

Jesus was clear: whoever believes possesses RIGHT NOW (present tense) eternal life, and those He gives eternal life (whoever believes) shall never perish.

All you're doing is try to contradict what Jesus said. So sad.

BCsenior said:

Here's a simple example:
What do you think about several people
who have visited hell and came back ...
saying that some are in hell for not tithing?
(Can't remember if it's never tithing, or tithing little.)
They say God takes tithing very seriously, and
does not take kindly to people robbing Him, etc.

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God can take anything we have because its already His. Robbing God would be seen in this scripture below. Its not tithing a certain percentage of our income, and its not giving it to a rich prosperity preacher either, but is giving to those in need who we encounter in life.

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not [e]take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Some argue Ephesians 2:8-9 for Belief Alone-ism. They say salvation is by God's grace through faith and not of themselves. While Belief Alone-ism is false, the statement in Scripture from Ephesians 2:8-9 is true. Salvation is indeed by God's grace through faith and not that of ourselves. We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace.

I explain this in post #274; In fact, the reason why Paul talked the way he did in Galatians, Romans, and Ephesians because he was arguing against "Circumcision Salvationism." I provided verses for this.

In this post, I also provided good reasons (biblically) why the salvation equation is:


Oh, and while gifts can be free, a person does have to take care of certain gifts in life in order to maintain them. If a man received a car as a free gift, that does not mean he can run red lights, hit pedestrians, and drive drunk, etc. and expect to keep his car (that is a free gift).

If a man prayed to the Lord for a Christian spouse (soul mate), and God answered his prayer, he could regard this woman as a gift from God. But if the man chose to cheat on her later on, there is no guarantee that she will stay with him. So the man can lose his gift by his unfaithfulness. God is the same way. If we are unfaithful and sin against God, this is basically telling God that you don't want to be with Him anymore because holiness and God are inseparable. A mere belief alone does not convey your loyalty to God.

Jesus says why do you call me, Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? (Luke 6:46).

BCsenior said:

So, you don't agree with my equation, which
also insists on endurance and obedience?

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Again, no need to assume that I do not believe this.
Do you not see endurance and obedience as a part of believer's "works of faith"?
Is endurance a work?
Does obedience play a part in our works?

I already said in post #274 this:

In Post #275, I said this:

I hope this helps;
And may God bless you (even if I disagree with the way you are presenting Conditional Salvationism).