Democrats try to cut ‘so help me God’ from committee witness oath,

RaymondG said:

I understand. Would you say that this would be a negative thing?....not allowing scriptures on walls and open prayer etc.... If so, you would be for the allowance of muslim scriptures on walls, and the discussion of Mohammed and the teaching of Muslim prayers in the schools your children attend? Or do you feel that the desires of those, only, in the Christian religion so be respected in politics?

Click to expand...

Absolutely... This country and the US would be much better places if people knew about the religions of the people that they live beside and around. They would know what, exactly, this religion believes to be true and acceptable.

It was not uncommon, in my day, to have a class on religions of the world... Why would that be wrong.

I bet you could get a class on Islam in a school long before you could get a class on Christianity.

In fact.. what is the mandate or command that Christ gave?

Matthew 28:16-19 New International Version (NIV)
The Great Commission
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go.17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Is this not exactly what the enemy wants to stop by removing God from the schools? Oh, the other religions will get their prayer rooms and be allowed their religions freedoms... but... Christianity? It offends people.....

Ringo84 said:

Correct.



This is not correct. As long as you're not disruptive, you can pray whenever you like.

Click to expand...

"As long as you're not disruptive" Very key point... Christianity is "disruptive to anyone who is against it. Try using that for any other freedoms of other religions... not politically correct for sure.

Ringo84 said:

Students are not banned from mentioning God in essays and assignments.

Click to expand...

Not banned but.... check out the grade they will get.

Ringo84 said:

I definitely think that the reason many of these controversies exist is not because of an effort to "kick" God out of schools, but because school administrators hear some Christians say that "we can't mention God", believe them, and act accordingly.

Click to expand...

So, you think that the administrators act on false assumptions of Christians and impose policies based on them? Seriously?

Shiloh Raven said:

America wasn't founded on Christian principles. It was founded on white supremacy of the WASP and racism against minorities and that continued for 188 years until the Civil Rights Movement in 1964.

Since we're discussing some of our problems, I think I'll chime in and share some of mine. I have a problem with right wing Christians wanting to impose their preferred version of Christianity into the secular government of this country by insisting that a Ten Commandments plaque be on display on government property or insisting that their preferred version of Christian prayer be led by Christian teachers and Christian students in a public school where non-Christian children attend. I also have a problem with these Christians insisting that non-Christians swear an oath to affirm the Christian God.

I have a problem with these Christians attempting to usurp the civil rights and equality of LGBTQ American citizens because they don't approve of their sexual orientation and lifestyle. And all the while these Christians support and defend a twice divorced adulterous philander who said he's never asked God for forgiveness and couldn't find a specific chapter in the Bible if his life depended on it, unless it was Two Corinthians. Never mind he's married to his former mistress and his affair with a inappropriate content star.

Click to expand...

Where oh where to begin... I have no time to untangle this mess.

RaymondG said:

Do you discriminate against other religions?

Click to expand...

No.

JacksBratt said:

"As long as you're not disruptive" Very key point... Christianity is "disruptive to anyone who is against it. Try using that for any other freedoms of other religions... not politically correct for sure.

Click to expand...

That's not what I meant at all. Any religious practice - of any religion - that interfered with the lesson or got in the way of instructional time would be frowned upon, in the same way that firing up a Game Boy in the middle of class would be.

Not banned but.... check out the grade they will get.

Click to expand...

Which would likely be taken to the school administration and be overturned.

So, you think that the administrators act on false assumptions of Christians and impose policies based on them? Seriously?

Click to expand...

Yes. In a lot of cases, I think that's absolutely what happens. I also think that certain types of faith leaders and Christians* push the line deliberately in order to feed the "Christians are persecuted and God was 'kicked out' of public school" narrative.

What many American Christians* seem to fail to understand is that they're not the only faith group that exists in this country. The rights of all the faiths that represent the tapestry of America must be balanced with the rights of Christianity, and that's why the government must remain neutral. It cannot claim to be an impartial judge that protects the rights of all its citizens if it takes sides on theological issues.

Many American Christians* don't like to hear that because they're entitled and selfish, only worried about their rights and failing to even consider that people with other ideas and beliefs even exist.
Ringo

* I don't necessarily include you in these groups.[/quote]

Shiloh Raven said:

You're taking the wind out of their political jab at Democrats when you point facts out like that.

Click to expand...

Idk why folks come to a Christian forum & then misrepresent things on account of wanting to make political jabs at the folks they see as their political opponents. All it does is just the opposite

redleghunter said:

WASHINGTON, D.C., January 30, 2019 (LifeSiteNews) – Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives plan to strike “so help me God” from the oath witnesses take before testifying to one of the committees they now control, according to a draft of a rules package obtained by Fox News.

The draft governing procedures of the House Committee on Natural Resources contains the standard oath, “Do you solemnly swear or affirm, under penalty of law, that the testimony that you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,” Fox reported Tuesday, with “so help you God” set in red brackets to denote a deletion. It apparently was to be replaced with the phrase “under penalty of law.”

The draft also reveals Democrats intend to purge gender-specific pronouns, replacing “his or her” with “their” and “Chairman” with “Chair.”

Following Fox News’ original report, the committee voted to keep “so help you God” and Chairman Rep. Raul Grijalva, D-AZ, claimed its would-be removal was simply a “mistake,” IJRreports.


Remainder of article: Democrats try to cut ‘so help me God’ from committee witness oath, backtrack after outcry

Click to expand...

Matthew 5:34 KJV
But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
Matthew 5:35-36 KJV
Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. [36] Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

Ringo84 said:

That's not what I meant at all. Any religious practice - of any religion - that interfered with the lesson or got in the way of instructional time would be frowned upon, in the same way that firing up a Game Boy in the middle of class would be.

Click to expand...

Here's the problem with schools these days. A kid can be as disruptive as they want. The teacher have absolutely no power to discipline. Due to each child having the "right" to education and time in the classroom, teachers are wearing face masks to protect from spitting, Kevlar arm sleeves for protection from biting, all in the class have to wear ear muffs to avoid hearing damage due to screaming... No joke. My sister is a teacher and many of my coworkers spouses are teachers... It is awful. The teacher must allow the child their rightful time in the class...

BUT.... standing up and saying the Lords Prayer... bet that gets a note home and maybe more.

Ringo84 said:

Which would likely be taken to the school administration and be overturned.

Click to expand...

You're pretty optimistic. Like the teacher is the one making the guidelines. I doubt it.

Ringo84 said:

Yes. In a lot of cases, I think that's absolutely what happens. I also think that certain types of faith leaders and Christians* push the line deliberately in order to feed the "Christians are persecuted and God was 'kicked out' of public school" narrative.

Click to expand...

Seriously, that is preposterous... Christians are not people who go around looking for things to complain about. We are happy to be on our own with our rights...
That's actually funny that you would believe such a thing.

Ringo84 said:

What many American Christians* seem to fail to understand is that they're not the only faith group that exists in this country.

Click to expand...

Oh, I doubt that very much. Where are you getting your ideas?

Ringo84 said:

The rights of all the faiths that represent the tapestry of America must be balanced with the rights of Christianity,

Click to expand...

That would be nice.. to have balance that is.. While they are stopping the lords prayer and taking down the ten commandments.. they were opening up prayer rooms for Muslims and giving them time out of class for prayer.

A family was going to lose their foster children for not telling their kids that there was an Easter bunny... Pah... lease...

Christian couple that lost foster children for refusing to lie about Easter Bunny vindicated by Ontario court

And you think Christian rights are balanced with non Christian beliefs?

Ringo84 said:

and that's why the government must remain neutral. It cannot claim to be an impartial judge that protects the rights of all its citizens if it takes sides on theological issues.

Click to expand...

I agree. The government should remain neutral... that means "not taking rights from Christians".

Ringo84 said:

Many American Christians* don't like to hear that because they're entitled and selfish, only worried about their rights and failing to even consider that people with other ideas and beliefs even exist.

Click to expand...

No, Christians are legitimately worried about losing any right to worship Christ at all.

You really need to get out of the cloak of academia... and see the real world. Talk to some pastors and educators who are Christian...

I am a Canadian but I thank God for His hand in waking up the US public and avoiding a federal government in the US under Hillary Clinton...

I like this change. I always found it uncomfortable to be required to swear to God on a stack of bibles in a legal system. I don't believe we are supposed to do oaths in general to God, and resent being forced to state something I don't believe in doing with my faith due to court rules.

JacksBratt said:

You're pretty optimistic. Like the teacher is the one making the guidelines. I doubt it.

Click to expand...

There's nothing optimistic about it. If your civil rights are being violated, the administration will overturn it for you.

Seriously, that is preposterous... Christians are not people who go around looking for things to complain about. We are happy to be on our own with our rights...
That's actually funny that you would believe such a thing.

Click to expand...

Really? Could've fooled me. Too many Christians who live in this country seem to have a chip on their shoulder about religious freedom that they dare the government to knock off.

Oh, I doubt that very much. Where are you getting your ideas?

Click to expand...

You....doubt that other faith groups exist in this country?

Am I on Candid Camera here?

That would be nice.. to have balance that is.. While they are stopping the lords prayer and taking down the ten commandments.. they were opening up prayer rooms for Muslims and giving them time out of class for prayer.

Click to expand...

Balance is the name of the game. That's why public schools don't allow the Ten Commandments: to make their schools safe for people of all religions and ideas.

A family was going to lose their foster children for not telling their kids that there was an Easter bunny... Pah... lease...

Christian couple that lost foster children for refusing to lie about Easter Bunny vindicated by Ontario court

And you think Christian rights are balanced with non Christian beliefs?

Click to expand...

Sure do. It's not the government's function to determine which beliefs are valid and which aren't.

I agree. The government should remain neutral... that means "not taking rights from Christians".

Click to expand...

Your rights are not being taken away. At all.

No, Christians are legitimately worried about losing any right to worship Christ at all.

Click to expand...

Then their worry is misplaced, because as long as we separate church and state we won't lose any right to worship whomever we please - or not worship, if we so choose.

You really need to get out of the cloak of academia... and see the real world. Talk to some pastors and educators who are Christian...

Click to expand...

Maybe you're not seeing the "real world". I posted an ACLU link that showed the rights that American public school students have to pray, read, and even worship as long as they're not disruptive. Your idea that somehow Christians are going to lose the right to worship is not founded on fact, but paranoia.
Ringo

NW82 said:

The really disturbing thing is that people who profess to be Christians are arguing to remove God from anything to do with our Country.

Click to expand...

It will be the same "Christians" who will head the torture and persecution of those they deem not the right type of Christians.

Ringo84 said:

There's nothing optimistic about it. If your civil rights are being violated, the administration will overturn it for you.

Click to expand...

The administration is the problem.

Ringo84 said:

Really? Could've fooled me. Too many Christians who live in this country seem to have a chip on their shoulder about religious freedom that they dare the government to knock off.

Click to expand...

You and I know a totally different group of Christians. Maybe that's where you should start.

Ringo84 said:

You....doubt that other faith groups exist in this country?

Click to expand...

I'm starting to see why you are so confused. Simple comprehension.. I certainly believe that there are other faith groups... I doubt that Christians believe that they are the only ones.

Ringo84 said:

Balance is the name of the game. That's why public schools don't allow the Ten Commandments: to make their schools safe for people of all religions and ideas.

Click to expand...

Oh.. I see.. the ten commandments are very dangerous... removal of them makes the school safer.. Who would want to tell kids to respect their parents, not steal, not lie, not kill, not swear.... What was I thinking?

Ringo84 said:

Sure do. It's not the government's function to determine which beliefs are valid and which aren't.

Click to expand...

So the government should take foster kids out of a home because the parents don't tell the kids about the Easter bunny.. and...... that is the government NOT determining which beliefs are or aren't valid?

Pinch me please... candid camera indeed.

Ringo84 said:

Your rights are not being taken away. At all.

Click to expand...

Soon it will be illeagal to dicipline your children, teach them about Christ, tell them what is right and wrong.... WHY? because it will no longer be the right of the parent to teach their children anything.. the children will have the right to believe whatever they decide.

I watched a guy on you tube go to a US university and start by telling people that he identified as a woman.. then as an Asian woman... NOBODY had the guts to call him out..

By the end..he had everyone telling him that if he identified as a 7 year old, six foot tall Asian woman.. then it was ok with them and he should be accepted as such...

OH MY GOODNESS.. GOD HELP AMERICA..

He hooked them with the whole "I identify as a woman" From there they could not challenge any other of the absurd statements.. They knew that they were out to lunch but due to the way the world is today...

You cannot tell anyone that what they think about themself or believe about reality is wrong... because everyone has a right to their own reality.
How sad and mixed up are we?

Ringo84 said:

Then their worry is misplaced, because as long as we separate church and state we won't lose any right to worship whomever we please - or not worship, if we so choose.

Click to expand...

Oh man... I wish that were true. If you do not see it yet... I don't know what we can do for you... Christianity is under attack along with all that it stands for.

Ringo84 said:

Maybe you're not seeing the "real world". I posted an ACLU link that showed the rights that American public school students have to pray, read, and even worship as long as they're not disruptive. Your idea that somehow Christians are going to lose the right to worship is not founded on fact, but paranoia.
Ringo

Click to expand...

The ACLU.. really? Your idea of rights is based on the ACLU? Seriously?

The ACLU.. the same one that wanted a cross taken down because it was offensive..

Seriously, Ringo... the ACLU is the most anti-Christian organization in the USA.

JacksBratt said:

The administration is the problem.

Click to expand...

No, the problem is a misunderstanding - often deliberate - of the First Amendment and what is says.

You and I know a totally different group of Christians. Maybe that's where you should start.

Click to expand...

You live in Canada. Maybe it's different up there, but many - not all - American Christians act awfully entitled.

I'm starting to see why you are so confused. Simple comprehension.. I certainly believe that there are other faith groups... I doubt that Christians believe that they are the only ones.

Click to expand...

Some of them certainly act like their beliefs are the only ones that count.

Oh.. I see.. the ten commandments are very dangerous... removal of them makes the school safer.. Who would want to tell kids to respect their parents, not steal, not lie, not kill, not swear.... What was I thinking?

Click to expand...

I didn't say they were dangerous. I said that if they want to create a learning environment where people of all faiths feel welcome, then it is inappropriate for schools to place blatantly religious monuments - of any kind - on the walls. You can't claim to represent everyone if you take sides.

So the government should take foster kids out of a home because the parents don't tell the kids about the Easter bunny.. and...... that is the government NOT determining which beliefs are or aren't valid?

Pinch me please... candid camera indeed.

Click to expand...

I read the article and although I don't necessarily agree with what they did, I think your framing is misleading. It said:

article said:

The CAS said the children were not removed for the foster parents refusing to lie about the bunny but for refusing to support the birth mother’s wishes and failing to be respectful of cultural needs of the children.

Click to expand...

This reads like they were trying to look out for the children's welfare. It may - or may not - be that they were overzealous, but it hardly seems like an example of "persecution".

Soon it will be illeagal to dicipline your children, teach them about Christ, tell them what is right and wrong.... WHY? because it will no longer be the right of the parent to teach their children anything.. the children will have the right to believe whatever they decide.

Click to expand...

You definitely are paranoid.

I watched a guy on you tube go to a US university and start by telling people that he identified as a woman.. then as an Asian woman... NOBODY had the guts to call him out..

By the end..he had everyone telling him that if he identified as a 7 year old, six foot tall Asian woman.. then it was ok with them and he should be accepted as such...

OH MY GOODNESS.. GOD HELP AMERICA..

He hooked them with the whole "I identify as a woman" From there they could not challenge any other of the absurd statements.. They knew that they were out to lunch but due to the way the world is today...

You cannot tell anyone that what they think about themself or believe about reality is wrong... because everyone has a right to their own reality.
How sad and mixed up are we?

Click to expand...

This is a completely different issue than religious freedom in school, but whether someone identifies as a woman is really not your concern; especially in college.

Oh man... I wish that were true. If you do not see it yet... I don't know what we can do for you... Christianity is under attack along with all that it stands for.

Click to expand...

Quite frankly, you don't know what you're talking about. You keep pronouncing doom and gloom but have nothing to really show except a single article about a child welfare issue in Ontario and anecdotes about people in college.

The ACLU.. really? Your idea of rights is based on the ACLU? Seriously?

The ACLU.. the same one that wanted a cross taken down because it was offensive..

Seriously, Ringo... the ACLU is the most anti-Christian organization in the USA.

Click to expand...

The ACLU has done more - and better - work for defending religious freedom for Christians than Christians themselves:
The ACLU Fights for Christians
Ringo

redleghunter said:

WASHINGTON, D.C., January 30, 2019 (LifeSiteNews) – Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives plan to strike “so help me God” from the oath witnesses take before testifying to one of the committees they now control, according to a draft of a rules package obtained by Fox News.

The draft governing procedures of the House Committee on Natural Resources contains the standard oath, “Do you solemnly swear or affirm, under penalty of law, that the testimony that you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,” Fox reported Tuesday, with “so help you God” set in red brackets to denote a deletion. It apparently was to be replaced with the phrase “under penalty of law.”

The draft also reveals Democrats intend to purge gender-specific pronouns, replacing “his or her” with “their” and “Chairman” with “Chair.”

Following Fox News’ original report, the committee voted to keep “so help you God” and Chairman Rep. Raul Grijalva, D-AZ, claimed its would-be removal was simply a “mistake,” IJRreports.


Remainder of article: Democrats try to cut ‘so help me God’ from committee witness oath, backtrack after outcry

Click to expand...

Who cares? People who lie under oath aren’t going to suddenly tell the truth upon swearing “so help me God” because they lack respect for what God evokes, and those who do respect what God evokes don’t need to say “so help me God” in order to display integrity.

Monk Brendan said:

Believe it or not, "so help me God" is not part of the presidential oath as given in the Constitution.

Click to expand...

Correct. According to tradition those words were added by George Washington. There have been Presidents who have not used those words.

Sounds okay to me to take it out as part of the default oath. I don't know why it's in there. It's not as if this country has ever been unified in faith. Jefferson didn't even believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.

Ringo84 said:

No, the problem is a misunderstanding - often deliberate - of the First Amendment and what is says.



You live in Canada. Maybe it's different up there, but many - not all - American Christians act awfully entitled.



Some of them certainly act like their beliefs are the only ones that count.



I didn't say they were dangerous. I said that if they want to create a learning environment where people of all faiths feel welcome, then it is inappropriate for schools to place blatantly religious monuments - of any kind - on the walls. You can't claim to represent everyone if you take sides.



I read the article and although I don't necessarily agree with what they did, I think your framing is misleading. It said:



This reads like they were trying to look out for the children's welfare. It may - or may not - be that they were overzealous, but it hardly seems like an example of "persecution".



You definitely are paranoid.



This is a completely different issue than religious freedom in school, but whether someone identifies as a woman is really not your concern; especially in college.



Quite frankly, you don't know what you're talking about. You keep pronouncing doom and gloom but have nothing to really show except a single article about a child welfare issue in Ontario and anecdotes about people in college.



The ACLU has done more - and better - work for defending religious freedom for Christians than Christians themselves:
The ACLU Fights for Christians
Ringo

Click to expand...

Ringo, I really feel for you. You are blind to the anti Christian events and powers that surround you. Yes, I live in Canada, but we are like twins. We have very similar agenda's that are driving our countries away from the liberties and freedoms that Christians enjoy.

Just by your posts, here, I can tell that you mean well. However, it's all a lie. If you want to know why your country is being plagued by natural disasters as well as a crumbling of the system that is supposed to provide safety while the citizens of your country pursue happiness..... It is because you are pushing God out of your country... You are telling God to leave you alone... He is complying.

All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good people to do nothing. And.. look... people here are blind to the evil that is condemning the Bible being studied in schools.... Not only that.. but these are admitted Christians.... How sad.

Anyway, the time it would take to systematically educate you on the multi faceted and complex agenda that is in play here, would take far more time than I have available.

Just let me say.. the US, and Canada for that matter, dodged a bullet when Hillary was defeated.... It set the events of the New World Order back about a decade.

Now, our little narcissist, Justin Trudeau, will be taken down in the fall... as people are waking up to his destruction of our Country.

But, it will not last. The days are short and Christians will be put to death when they refuse the mark of the beast.. It is closer than you think...

Just watch what you are drinking... stay away from the Koolaid.

Tropical Wilds said:

Who cares? People who lie under oath aren’t going to suddenly tell the truth upon swearing “so help me God” because they lack respect for what God evokes, and those who do respect what God evokes don’t need to say “so help me God” in order to display integrity.

Click to expand...

This is correct. I think it's offensive to be forced to say these words, and you look suspicious if you refuse because of your faith, even if you're telling the truth. Being forced by the government to swear to God makes no sense to me.

archer75 said:

Sounds okay to me to take it out as part of the default oath. I don't know why it's in there. It's not as if this country has ever been unified in faith. Jefferson didn't even believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

It's all about cultural symbols of religious hegemony.

As I pointed out earlier, Jesus clearly said oaths were foolish and misguided, and encouraged people to just be honest. Yet some of his supposedly greatest fans didn't get the memo, and are outraged.