Bible condones poisoning yourself with ethanol?

Fish14 said:

I drank that horrendous, lethal poison for the second time in my life last night. It is ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING! First it felt kind of good, but memorizing that, it was more about losing self-control than being happy. I possibly lost my reputation by sending drunken messages to everyone, in the morning I will see! Or maybe I will stay at home due to hangover. I wish there was a worlwide prohibition for the next thousand years or so because no one needs to drink that anti-life, anti-happiness, Satanic psychoactive narcotic poison. At least 50 000 000 000 life years, or 50 BILLLION, have been lost directly due to this chemical during the history of mankind, and much more because of lost productivity and thus less charity to help poor countries in birth control and food security.

Now why does the Bible have verses such as these:

1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine...

Ecclesiastes 9:7
...drink your wine with a joyful heart...

In John 2:3-11, our beloved God turns jarfuls of delicious water into disgusting wine. Why?

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In the Bible you will find many examples that seem to much on the topic of drinking alcohol. Such examples include:

• Leviticus 10:9
• Numbers 6:3
• Deuteronomy 29:6
• Judges 13:4, 7, 14
• Proverbs 20:1; 31:4
• Isaiah 5:11,22; 24:9; 28:7; 29:9; 56:12

However, sometime it gets confusing because other examples seem to have a positive light on alcohol. Such examples include:

• Ecclesiastes 9:7
• Psalm 104:14-15
• Amos 9:14
• Isaiah 55:1

It is important to note that there is a difference between drinking alcohol and being a drunkard. Scripture clearly commands Christians to avoid drunkenness (Ephesians 5:18) and its effects (Proverbs 23:29-35) and to not be mastered by anything (1 Corinthians 6:12) (2 Peter 2:19)

It has been scientifically proven that alcohol can lead to addiction and a physical dependency. Many recovering alcoholics struggle through their recovery process and many relapse because being around people who are drinking creates a temptation for them that they fail to overcome. Scripture tells Christians that we shouldn't do anything that would cause others to fall into temptation (1 Corinthians 8:9-11) which is why most pastors and other leaders abstain from alcohol to prevent anyone in the congregation to fall to the temptation and not necessarily because they consider it sinful to consume alcohol. Furthermore, drinking excessively to the point of drunkenness goes against Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians 10:31-33 which states "So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved."

It is important to note that Jesus' first miracle was changing water into wine at a wedding feast (John 2) and he instructed His disciples to drink wine during the last supper (Matthew 26: 27-29). Bumble Bee is correct when she noted the poor water sanitation so it was common for people at that time to drink wine or grape juice because it was considered much safer. This is why Paul gives instructions to Timothy to "Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses (1 Timothy 5:23). Timothy's frequent stomach illness is likely a result of drinking contaminated water. Yes, wine in those times were fermented but did not contain nearly as much alcohol as it does today which is why it was consumed relatively frequently.

In conclusion, consuming alcohol is not a sin. However, drinking excessively to the point of drunkenness and addiction is a sin. Because the temptation is great for a recovering alcoholic to relapse, it is often best for a Christian to abstain. Especially in public setting when surrounded by people they may not be aware to be recovering alcoholics.

JustRachel said:

You've also got to read the verses about drunkenness.

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I mentioned those in post 41.

Fish14 said:

And what about pain? Well, alcohol is quite a pain in itself so I wouldn't drink it to any small pain. But for amputation, large operations and such, again understandable. However, this is a rare use of alcohol and doesn't quite explain the widespread use of it.

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I explained it in post 41.

Fish14 said:

I drank a fourth of a strong vodka bottle and still suffer from nausea and headaches. I hope I won't touch thay stuff ever again. Glass of wine was pleasant? Do you mean the wobbly feeling and gay mood?

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I think we need to define what "moderation" means.


BTW, the definition of a standard drink is:

Tree of Life said:

There's no such thing as alcoholic genes. But if you wish to abstain then God bless you in your abstinence.

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Not entirely true. Genetics play a significant factor in ones tolerance and likelihood that they will become physically dependent.

Genetics of Alcohol Use Disorder | National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA)

By the way, I used to be a Substance Abuse Control Officer for my military unit.

Fish14 said:

I drank that horrendous, lethal poison for the second time in my life last night. It is ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING! First it felt kind of good, but memorizing that, it was more about losing self-control than being happy. I possibly lost my reputation by sending drunken messages to everyone, in the morning I will see! Or maybe I will stay at home due to hangover. I wish there was a worlwide prohibition for the next thousand years or so because no one needs to drink that anti-life, anti-happiness, Satanic psychoactive narcotic poison. At least 50 000 000 000 life years, or 50 BILLLION, have been lost directly due to this chemical during the history of mankind, and much more because of lost productivity and thus less charity to help poor countries in birth control and food security.

Now why does the Bible have verses such as these:

1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine...

Ecclesiastes 9:7
...drink your wine with a joyful heart...

In John 2:3-11, our beloved God turns jarfuls of delicious water into disgusting wine. Why?

Click to expand...

So you made a bad decision, abused something, and now you are blaming it instead of yourself? That's like blaming a condom for premarital sex, or women dressing a certain way for sexually harassing them.

It is like overweight people who blame genetics (there are extremely extraordinary cases where this is true). It's like saying a gun killed someone. I could go on.

When you blame someone or something else for your bad decisions, you have given yourself over to Satan. You have surrendered your own control. You are not taking responsibility.

We cannot ban anything (that is, criminalize, throw people in jail for) that we personally misuse in an attempt at absolving our guilt. Virtue is a concept that has been completely forgotten. Virtue is correct human behavior. You can do something too little, or too much. You can work too much and you can also work too little. You can trust too much, or not trust enough. Everything must be done in moderation.

50 billion people have not died due to alcohol. That's half the number of homo homo sapiens that have ever existed.

Fish14 said:

In my opinion, drunkenness is the same as drinking alcohol. The "drunk" effect doesn't begin suddenly but increases in correlation with the amount of poison drunk.

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In many ways you are correct. Studies have show that after consuming only one standard drink, your ability to make rational decisions is degraded long before you feel the physical effects. Which is why it is so easy to go for that second, third, fourth... drink after you had your first. Even at a BAC of less than .04 (half the legal limit to drive in the US), studies have shown a drastic decline in the areas of the brain that are responsible for your cognitive and rational thinking.

martymonster said:

Of course drinking alcohol is evil. As soon as Christ had finished turning the water into wine, he rebuked the people for being drunk, and gave a sermon on the evils of drinking.

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So people drank alcohol for thousands of years without abusing it?

Does anyone really believe Jesus gave people bread? Bread is full of carbs and causes obesity. It is undeniable that low carb diets have been very successful. Am I to believe Jesus tried to lead His flock to gluttony?

Why do churches make the mistake of feeding their flocks booze and carbs???

The bible doesn't mean "bread" when it says "bread." It's actually referring to loaves made of high protein beans. This bread wasn't "bread" as we understand it.

Fish14 said:

In my opinion, drunkenness is the same as drinking alcohol. The "drunk" effect doesn't begin suddenly but increases in correlation with the amount of poison drunk.

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It isn't. There's a threshhold below which you are not drunk at all, because the body is processing it. And then there's a level at which the intake overwhelms the processing and the body and mind are more and more seriously affected. So no, drinking alcohol is not the same as drunkenness.

And yes, the Bible does condone drinking alcohol. In fact, Jesus pretty much compels drinking a little of it - he turned water into wine for a wedding (where they were obviously drinking more than a little and tending towards drunkenness, probably), and he had a reputation among wags as a "winebibber", and at at the Last Supper, he turned the Passover Seder wine into the cup of his blood, the blood of the new covenant. And of the wine-blood he said elsewhere: unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life in you.

So yeah, the Bible not only condones drinking alcohol, but actually commands drinking a little of it.

That said, if you have strong alcoholic tendencies and it makes you sick, don't. Drinking is not required in life, and it doesn't seem likely that God is going to really condemn anybody for not taking a sip of communion wine. (But if you are the fearful Biblical literalist type, then discipline yourself to take one sip of wine once a year at communion, to fulfill the commandment, and drink no more besides that. Many, many alcoholics manage THAT without a relapse.)

Fish14 said:

• Because I was stupid.
• Okay, sounds nice.
• I wanted to express my feelings towards alcohol to other people. But you're right, maybe I should keep my own decisions to myself and let others enjoy their drinks...

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I wouldn't beat yourself up too much. I think it is quite responsible and mature of you to make an honest assessment of your limits. Even if it is learning that hard way. Most people just deny that they have a problem and continue onto addiction. BTW, did you know that alcohol is one of the few substances that you can actually die from withdraw if you become physically dependent? Its true. I have actually had cases where I had to send someone to the hospital with a six pack of beer because their organs were shutting down as a result of alcohol withdraw.

Tree of Life said:

Correlation is not causation.

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Let me try to explain. Everyone has a "trigger point" for alcohol addiction. That trigger point varies with every individual and genetics play a huge part of where exactly your "trigger point" is. Some peoples "trigger point" is much higher than other. The important part is that nobody knows exactly where their "trigger point" is. The more frequently you excessively consume alcohol and the higher your tolerance becomes, you creep ever closer to your trigger point like a game of Russian Roulette. It's not a question of "if" but "when" that trigger is going to pull. Once the "round of addiction" fires, there is no taking the bullet back. You are now physically addicted and need to go to rehab or else you will suffer the symptoms of withdraw. Furthermore, after that trigger point is reached, abstinence is the only option of a recovering alcoholic because the proteins in the brain that caused the addiction never go away. It can literally take only one drink and a recovering alcoholic will relapse back into addiction.

Fish14 said:

I drank that horrendous, lethal poison for the second time in my life last night. It is ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING! First it felt kind of good, but memorizing that, it was more about losing self-control than being happy. I possibly lost my reputation by sending drunken messages to everyone, in the morning I will see! Or maybe I will stay at home due to hangover. I wish there was a worlwide prohibition for the next thousand years or so because no one needs to drink that anti-life, anti-happiness, Satanic psychoactive narcotic poison. At least 50 000 000 000 life years, or 50 BILLLION, have been lost directly due to this chemical during the history of mankind, and much more because of lost productivity and thus less charity to help poor countries in birth control and food security.

Now why does the Bible have verses such as these:

1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine...

Ecclesiastes 9:7
...drink your wine with a joyful heart...

In John 2:3-11, our beloved God turns jarfuls of delicious water into disgusting wine. Why?

Click to expand...

I don't know why there isn't a black and white stance on alcohol or why those verses are the way they are. Except I thought 1 Timothy 5:23 was for a sick person? Anyway...

I don't drink at all. I stopped when I became a Christian although I never drank heavily. I think if you read the Bible and think drinking is a good idea I would ask you to reconsider. I don't think prohibition would even work though tbh. Are most people even professing to be Christian in the first place?

if you can't hold your liquor, you should drop it.

Fish14 said:

According to some studies (I googled quickly so don't trust me completely) about half of the chance of alcoholism is due to genes. Other half is due to upbringing, environment etc. But of course, I believe in free will and that everyone could stop using any drug (sometimes with nearly impossible amounts of "willpower")

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I don't agree there is tendency to alcoholism in the genes, but addiction, which can be genetic in personality traits. My family definitely has that gene.

Drinking too much vodka and getting sick from it is miserable. I've done it myself. If you are not enjoying drinking, I don't blame you from abstaining in the future.

There is nothing wrong with drinking in moderation for most people. However, it you cannot handle alcohol consumption for whatever reason then you should not drink.

Alcohol in small amounts is just a nice relaxer. You know what else is nice, a coffee to wake you up. But not everyone likes or reacts the same to coffee either. Why do people act like God views joy as a sin? I'm pretty sure prayer would feel like a punch to the face instead of a comforting thing if this were the case. And the Bible would not have been written so finely if God didn't like joy. It would've been an instruction manual that repeated "toughen up kid!" a lot.

Fish14 said:

I possibly lost my reputation by sending drunken messages to everyone, in the morning I will see!

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I look at it this way, some people have less brake fluid in their brains than others do.
It's like we have a leak in the brake lining.
The more you use the brakes, the less fluid you have.
Then one day, no brakes.
You generally don't realize this is going on though while it's happening
And since it's gradually becoming your one and only coping mechanism for life
(while at the same time destroying your life)
You'll fight to the death to deny the problem and keep it.

That is, if you are anything like me.
If you are, then I think you should put it down
And not pick it up again.

Jesus himself drank wine but he never got drunk. Drunkenness is wrong, wine itself is not. If you drink so much that you're buzzed or not feeling like yourself, then you're drinking too much.

And again, everyone is different. I for example plan to never drink alcohol because I have a very addictive personality. So one sip for me could drag me down a dark path. Some people have no problem drinking a glass of wine every night and then others do.

It's about understanding yourself and moderation.

Several things people are ignoring here.

#1. Our thoughts are not God’s thoughts.

#2. People are pleasure driven. They are in favor of alcohol even before they read Scripture and they have bias towards alcohol because it is a substance of acceptance within this world and it makes them feel good. If you drink, you are cool, and you are one of the guys and you can get a buzz from a hard working day. So they read the Bible with alcoholic glasses. But Jesus says to take up your cross and deny yourself.

#3. Dictionaries define the word “wine” as either an unfermented fruit juice or a fermented fruit juice.

#4. Historical documents tell us that the Israelites had diluted their wine with water so as to drink it (So it was low in alcoholic content - unlike today’s wines). The Bible also alludes to wine being mixed with water among the Israelites and or the Jews.

#5. There are 6 strong reasons in Scripture that Jesus did not make alcoholic intoxicating fermented wine.

#6. A study in the UK shows that moderate use of alcohol consumption shrinks the brain. Do you want a shrunken brain? Then keep drinking.

#7. Alcohol is a drug and not a food and it has habit forming and addictive and can lead you to ruin your family, your job, and or to hurt or kill your fellow neighbors. One sip can easily lead to drunkenness.

#8. If you drink now to ease a hard work day, where will you turn to when a real life challenge comes your way (like a death of a loved one, etc.)? A person should go to God instead of the bottle after a hard work day and after a life challenge in their life.

#9. Can you imagine a Pastor or street preacher sipping a glass of wine every time they preached? Would they take him seriously?

#10. Your children. You set an example for your children. Do you really want your kids drinking? What if they are one of those who can get horribly addicted? God will hold you accountable for your actions if you made them think alcohol was okay. What did God say would happen to a person if they lead a child into sin?

The word "wine" instantly conjures up the idea of alcoholic wine in people's minds because of our party like culture. But this is not how the Dictionary defines it.

Websters 1913 Dictionary:

Wine:
The expressed juice of grapes, esp. when fermented; a beverage or liquor prepared from.grapes by squeezing out their juice, and (usually) allowing it to ferment.

A liquor or beverage prepared from the juice of any fruit or plant by a process similar to that.for grape wine; as, currant wine; gooseberry wine; palm wine.

Source:
Wine | Definition of Wine by Webster's Online Dictionary
(Please click on the link)

1828 Webster’s Dictionary defines the word “must” as “new wine-wine pressed from the grape, but not fermented.” Note that the unfermented grape juice is here explicitly called “new wine.”

The 1759 Nathan Bailey’s New Universal English Dictionary of Words and of Arts and Sciences offers the following definition for “wine”: “Natural wine is such as it comes from the grape, without any mixture or sophistication. Adulterated wine is that wherein some drug is added to give it strength, fineness, flavor, briskness, or some other qualification.”

The etymology of the word "wine":
"Old Irish fin, Gaelic fion. Essentially the same word as vine.