What particular Church can claim the most martyrs?

timothyu

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"Therefore, we ought to have nothing in common with the odious people of the Jews"

Making Christianity over in the gentile image.

Luke 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. 27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth. 28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations. 29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
 
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helmut

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I'm not disputing USSR times, since that is what the entire OP was about.
Confused - what do you want to tell me?

Lol people live in Siberia you know?
Yes, people live there. Nevertheless, not everyone survived banishment to siberia.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Yes, people live there. Nevertheless, not everyone survived banishment to siberia.

Find an estimated death count of prisoners in Tzarist Katorahs

Sources needed not your estimations.
 
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helmut

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You misunderstood what I said. Yes Paul was a Roman citizen, but he was a Jew. My point was actual Romans IN Rome.
Residence does not change the relation to a people. Pilatus was no less Roman in Judaea than in Rome.

Do you want to imply that Romans who were Jews were bad Roman citizens? This sounds like 1st-century antisemitism ;)

There were Arabs throughout the region.
Really? There were Jews, Idumeans (many of them Jews, because Judaeized by the Maccabees), Phoenicians, Aramaic people - but Arabs? Somewhere east of Pella (a region east of Jordan, politically part of Galilee) was the Nabataean kingdom, the "Arabia" Paul mentions in Galatians, but he probably meant the northern part which for some times even included Damascus (cf. 2.Cor 11,32), an area inhabited by Aramaeans, not Arabs.

The people mentioned above were Arabized after the conquer by the Muslim Arabs, only some Aramaeans are left over by now (Jews were driven out by the Romans in 135, so I don't count them as local people), but they were definitely no Arabs in NT times, with the exception of the Nabataeans (but true Arabs lived more in the south).
 
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☦Marius☦

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The people mentioned above were Arabized after the conquer by the Muslim Arabs, only some Aramaeans are left over by now (Jews were driven out by the Romans in 135, so I don't count them as local people), but they were definitely no Arabs in NT times, with the exception of the Nabataeans (but true Arabs lived more in the south).

Bedouin tribes are responsible for the rise of Islam, and have lived all throughout the middle east since the days of Ishmael. Bedouin tribes are Arabic, they speak the Arabic language, and make up a multitude of sub ethnicities.
 
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helmut

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You can NOT have Passover (the 14th) and the resurrection on the same day...
Really? Resurrection day can be before 14th Nisan, as in 2016 (Easter: 22.3./14th Nisan: 22.4.) or 2024 (31.3./22.4.), and most often it is after 14th Nisan, as in 2019 (14th Nisan: 19.04., Easter: 21.4.), so I conclude they might coincide in some years. Do You have a proof to the contrary?

And since the Jews celebrate the feast for one week, 2019 is an instance where Easter coincides with Jewish Passover (pessakh).

in the East it is called Pascha....not easter.
This is not a question of East or West, it is a question of language. Easter is "pascha" in Latin, and hence most Romanic languages have a term derived from that (e.g.French Pâques, Portuguese Páscoa, and Portugal is very western;)), and there are also several non-Romanic languages (e.g. Swedish påsk).
It were Celtic missionaries which used the word "Easter" to translate the name of this feast, and the Anglo-Saxon missionaries that worked in what is now western Germany carried this term into our language (Ostern - the sound change proves the term was derived from east ("Osten" in German). AFAIK no non-Germanic language uses this term, but rather "passah" or "feast of resurrection".
 
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☦Marius☦

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Really? Resurrection day can be before 14th Nisan, as in 2016 (Easter: 22.3./14th Nisan: 22.4.) or 2024 (31.3./22.4.), and most often it is after 14th Nisan, as in 2019 (14th Nisan: 19.04., Easter: 21.4.), so I conclude they might coincide in some years. Do You have a proof to the contrary?

And since the Jews celebrate the feast for one week, 2019 is an instance where Easter coincides with Jewish Passover (pessakh).


This is not a question of East or West, it is a question of language. Easter is "pascha" in Latin, and hence most Romanic languages have a term derived from that (e.g.French Pâques, Portuguese Páscoa, and Portugal is very western;)), and there are also several non-Romanic languages (e.g. Swedish påsk).
It were Celtic missionaries which used the word "Easter" to translate the name of this feast, and the Anglo-Saxon missionaries that worked in what is now western Germany carried this term into our language (Ostern - the sound change proves the term was derived from east ("Osten" in German). AFAIK no non-Germanic language uses this term, but rather "passah" or "feast of resurrection".

That wasn't his point. All of the Latin church has adopted the term Easter (after the pagan goddess eostra), while the east maintained the original.
 
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helmut

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Bedouin tribes are responsible for the rise of Islam
Bedouin denotes a lifestyle, not a people. In parts of North Africa, Bedouins are "Hamitic" people (Berber, Kabyle, and so on), while the Arabs (which are Semitic) are city-dwellers.

In times of Muhammad, the core of the Muslims were residents of cities (especially Yathrib, which was called "town [medina] of the Prophet"), while old Muslim sources complain the Bedouins were non-believing hypocrites - many of them left Islam when Muhammad died and had to be taken back to Islam by force.

In later days, the Arabs took the "Bedouin" lifestyle as a sort of ideal, even when they never lived similar to it. This is the source of the connotation of Arabs with Bedouins.

In short: Some Arabs are Bedouins, and many Bedouins are Arabs, but they are two distinct groups, which happen to overlap in membership.

Phoenicians were no Bedouins, neither Aramaeans in NT time (Laban was a Bedouin, like Isaak and Jacob), Idumaeans were also by and large no Bedouins, as to the Nabataeans, I'm unsure. I don't recall any figure in the NT which was Bedouin.
 
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helmut

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That wasn't his point. All of the Latin church has adopted the term Easter (after the pagan goddess eostra), while the east maintained the original.
Most researchers think there was no such Goddess. There is no reliable source for her existence besides some rumors.

Any "evidence" claimed by some people for her existence can be explained as reference "east", not to "eostra" or "austera/ostera".
 
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helmut

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All of the Latin church has adopted the term Easter
Nonsense. As I said, the Latin word used is PASCHA. "Easter" is an English word, "Ostern" is a German word, and these are the only languages I know that use this term. Maybe there are more Germanic languages, but I'm next to sure there is no non-Germanic language that uses easter/Ostern for this feast.

A Church which does neither speak German or English, but, say, Swedish, will use a term derived from "passah", like Swedish påsk. And a Latin church will use Latin, of course, i.e. it will use "pascha", the Latin word for "Easter".
 
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☦Marius☦

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Nonsense. As I said, the Latin word used is PASCHA. "Easter" is an English word, "Ostern" is a German word, and these are the only languages I know that use this term. Maybe there are more Germanic languages, but I'm next to sure there is no non-Germanic language that uses easter/Ostern for this feast.

A Church which does neither speak German or English, but, say, Swedish, will use a term derived from "passah", like Swedish påsk. And a Latin church will use Latin, of course, i.e. it will use "pascha", the Latin word for "Easter".

Except the Latin Church barely uses Latin anymore. Latin is just the cultural term.

Also provide a source for the Eoster claim if "most researchers" deny it.

Also Latin is based heavily on Greek. The term Pascha is actually Greek.
 
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helmut

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Nonsense. As I said, the Latin word used is PASCHA. "Easter" is an English word, "Ostern" is a German word, and these are the only languages I know that use this term.
If you doubt, just look at "Easter" in Wikipedia and then chose another language from the language list on the left. You will find many languages which use a form of "passah", some (at least 2) languages which use "Easter/Ostern", some (quite more than 2) that use "resurrection" - and of course languages where you are not sure what kind of term is it, because you don't understand the language or even can't read the script. I can tell that Korean 부활절 means "resurrection feast", but as to 復活節, it is Chinese to me:help::D

Corrected the type "Waster" for "Easter"
 
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☦Marius☦

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Bedouin denotes a lifestyle, not a people. In parts of North Africa, Bedouins are "Hamitic" people (Berber, Kabyle, and so on), while the Arabs (which are Semitic) are city-dwellers.

In times of Muhammad, the core of the Muslims were residents of cities (especially Yathrib, which was called "town [medina] of the Prophet"), while old Muslim sources complain the Bedouins were non-believing hypocrites - many of them left Islam when Muhammad died and had to be taken back to Islam by force.

In later days, the Arabs took the "Bedouin" lifestyle as a sort of ideal, even when they never lived similar to it. This is the source of the connotation of Arabs with Bedouins.

In short: Some Arabs are Bedouins, and many Bedouins are Arabs, but they are two distinct groups, which happen to overlap in membership.

Phoenicians were no Bedouins, neither Aramaeans in NT time (Laban was a Bedouin, like Isaak and Jacob), Idumaeans were also by and large no Bedouins, as to the Nabataeans, I'm unsure. I don't recall any figure in the NT which was Bedouin.

Bedouins spread out over the pastures of the Arabian Peninsula in the centuries C.E., and are descendants from the first settlers of the Southwestern Arabia (Yemen), and the second settlers of North-Central Arabia, claimed descendants of Ishmael, who are called the Qayis. The rivalry between both groups of the Bedouins has raged many bloody battles over the centuries.

The fertile crescent of Arabia was known for its lucrative import trade with southern Africa, which included items such as exotic herbsand spices, gold, ivory, and livestock. The oases of the Bedouins were often mobile markets of trade, as their lifestyle involved frequent migrating of the herds in search of greener pastures. The Bedouins were often ruthless raiders of established desert communities, in a never-ending conquest for plunder and material wealth. Equally, they practiced generous hospitality, and valued the virtue of chastity in their women, who were their ambassadors of generosity and hospitality. They followed their code of honor religiously, governed by tribal chieftains, or Sheikhs, who were elected by tribal elders.

In the first few centuries C.E., many Bedouin were converted to Christianity and Judaism, and many Bedouin tribes fell to Roman slavery. By the turn of the seventh century, most Bedouins had been converted to Islam.

Cities were created by two trends: Beduin traders becoming more sedentary, and Jews migrating from Palestine. The Jews were expelled from Palestine by the Romans after the 70 and 132 insurrections. Yathrib (Medina) is an example of an Arabian city that was originally settled by Jews. There were Jewish merchants, Jewish Bedouins, Jewish farmers, Jewish poets, Jewish warriors. There developed a symbiotic relationship between Jews and Arabs (Jews heavily Arabized, but Arabs heavily influenced by Jewish beliefs).

One city played a unique role in the Arabian peninsula: Mecca. Mecca was not situated at the crossroad of any major trading route, but it was situated near a oasis marked by a black cube, the Kaba. Legend had it that the kaba was placed there by the first man, Adam, and then rediscovered by the Jewish prophet Abraham (known as Ibrahim in Islam). Over the centuries it became a sanctuary for many gods. The Mecca before Mohammed was a model of religious tolerance. Pilgrims came from all over the peninsula to worship their gods, particularly during an annual pilgrimage (haji) to Mt Arafat. There were idols to the Nabataean gods (e.g., Kutba), to the goddess Uzza (Isis, Aphrodites), to Jesus and Mary. The chief god was Hubal, the Syrian god of the moon, chief god of Mecca. There was also a god named Allah, lord of the kaba, the Arab name for Enlil, an ancient Mesopotamiam god. who had three daughters: Manat, Allat, AlUzza. Oracles (kahin) interpreted the gods through ecstatic poetry, a procedure modeled after Delphi's oracle. Since there were 360 idols and the Pilgrims were expected to rotate around the kaba seven times, Mecca was probably also a cosmic metaphor (360 days of the year, seven astral bodies).

The only monotheists were the "hanif" (poets and visionaries), notably Zayd bin Arm who opposed both Judaism and Christianity but believed in only one God.

In the 4th century a man named Qusayy gained control of Mecca, collected the nearby idols, created a monopoly of pilgrimage and established the tribe of Quraysh as the wardians of the shrine ("the tribe of Allah"). Qusayy created an economic empire based on the lucrative captive market of pilgrims and on the advantages provided by the Kaba (Mecca as a sanctuary was exempt from warfare, the great commercial fairs coincided with the pilgrimage cycle). But the wealth of the Meccan elite violated the egalitarian spirit of the tribe and created social layers, with the Quraysh elite at the top. Usury became commonplace. Accumulation of individual wealth replaced the communitarian spirit of the Beduin tribe. Individual inheritance became commonplace, and this led to a patrilinear society.

There was much wealth in Arabia, although it was mostly traveling across it. Arabian trade routes to India became strategic to the Romans because of continuous warfare against the Sassanids.

At one point the Arabs were surrounded by Christians: Byzanthium in the north, Yemen in the south and Ethiopia to the east. Then there were the Zoroastrians of the Persian empire, and the Jews who had settled in the Arabian peninsula itself. Therefore the Arabian peninsula was the only place in the world where the three monotheistic religions met.

Somehow this religious tolerance upset many people, and several "prophets" emerged during the sixth and seventh centuries. One of them eventually succeeded.

Mohammed, an orphan at young age, was raised by his uncle with his younger cousin Ali. He worked as a caravan trader and married a widow who was much older than him. This widow, Khadija, was an exception in a male-dominated society: she was rich and she was powerful. It is likely that it was thank to her that young Mohammed became respected. It was in fact Khadija the first one who believed in Mohammed's visions. One can speculate that maybe it was Khadija who manufactured the whole story of the "messenger from Allah". After all, her only way to gain power in Mecca was through her husband. (Khadija was exposed to monotheism way before Mohammed: her cousin Waraqah ibn Nawfal was a Christian monk who had translated part of the Old Testament from Hebrew into Arabic).
 
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☦Marius☦

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Mohammed's rise to power was one of become the leader of his (beduin) tribe. The cities followed the beduin system of law and culture as well as their pantheon.

The whole cityscape of Arabia was beduin.
 
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helmut

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Except the Latin Church barely uses Latin anymore.
A Church not using Latin is no Latin Church. If You mean the RC Church, it is Roman, and uses Latin in "international" issues, but the local language otherwise. So they say Pasqua in Italy, Paskah in Indonesia and so on. If they don't use anything which is derived from "passah", this is a matter of language, nothing more.

Also provide a source for the Eoster claim if "most researchers" deny it.
I see that there is a difference between German and English Wikipedia. In the English Wikipedia, the Matronae Austriahenae is seen as crucial evidence for the existence of Eostre/Austara. In the German Wikipedia it is stressed that Austria-* just means "east-*", cf. Austria, the name of the former eastern part of Bavaria.

As I said: there is no evidence for the existence of this goddess that cannot be explained as to referring to the eastern geographic direction, not a deity. As to experts, there seems to be a different state of the debate in German and English circles.

Also Latin is based heavily on Greek. The term Pascha is actually Greek.
Correct. I didn't claim Latin is original in any way, I mentioned Latin because this was the language of the biggest western Church until recently.
 
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☦Marius☦

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A Church not using Latin is no Latin Church. If You mean the RC Church, it is Roman, and uses Latin in "international" issues, but the local language otherwise. So they say Pasqua in Italy, Paskah in Indonesia and so on. If they don't use anything which is derived from "passah", this is a matter of language, nothing more.


I see that there is a difference between German and English Wikipedia. In the English Wikipedia, the Matronae Austriahenae is seen as crucial evidence for the existence of Eostre/Austara. In the German Wikipedia it is stressed that Austria-* just means "east-*", cf. Austria, the name of the former eastern part of Bavaria.

As I said: there is no evidence for the existence of this goddess that cannot be explained as to referring to the eastern geographic direction, not a deity. As to experts, there seems to be a different state of the debate in German and English circles.
Also Latin is based heavily on Greek. The term Pascha is actually Greek.[/QUOTE]
Correct. I didn't claim Latin is original in any way, I mentioned Latin because this was the language of the biggest western Church until recently.[/QUOTE]

Forgive me, as Orthodox we refer to the Roman Catholic Church as the Latin church, regardless of it's language.

You are correct about the Italians however.
 
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helmut

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Bedouins spread out over the pastures of the Arabian Peninsula in the centuries C.E.
The Fulbe Bedouins are not descendants from Arabsm, to mentioned an unequivocal counterexample.

And what about Bedouins like Jacob, son of Isaac, the founder father of Israel?

This is going to be off-topic, if you want to discuss more about Bedouins and Arabs, open a new theme and let me know. I tould you the facts, and if you still want to mix Bedouin and Arab, it is your problem.
 
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☦Marius☦

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The Fulbe Bedouins are not descendants from Arabsm, to mentioned an unequivocal counterexample.

And what about Bedouins like Jacob, son of Isaac, the founder father of Israel?

This is going to be off-topic, if you want to discuss more about Bedouins and Arabs, open a new theme and let me know. I tould you the facts, and if you still want to mix Bedouin and Arab, it is your problem.

Lol I'm literally posting from encyclopedia Brytannica.

You keep saying it's a way of life and not a people group. But that's not entirely accurate. Anyone can live nomadically in the desert, but the beduin have specific tribal governments and culture that differ from say, patriarchal Jewish nomads.
 
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