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And as I said, maybe he didn't think contemporaries of Jesus would be willing to die for something they would know was a lie.
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Jesus of History and Myth
- Thread starter Steve Petersen
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No, I didn't miss your point. There's a difference. Jesus' contemporaries would know if His story was a lie and I don't think they would have been willing to die for it.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Is contemporaries the right word ? Most living then might never believe Him,
though the ones immersed in His Name, those who repented of their sin, believed Him and knew He always lived the truth, and spoke the Truth from His Father.
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cvanwey
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People die for beliefs all the time. Many of which are not Christian... So how is this even relevant?
Again, Josephus offers nothing to substantiate a resurrection claim, even if everything you assert were true; which it isn't, and you have made absolutely no effort to refute my conclusion that the golden paragraph was a later addition after hid death.
Moving forward, the only way to substantiate a one time claim, is by eyewitness testimony. I guess that rules Josephus out
And since all we have are contemporaneous inconsistent and bias Gospels, demonstrating growing legendary embellishment, where does one go from there?
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cvanwey
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Okay, lets completely grant everything you just stated without contest. Now I will ask you a very simple question....
By what authority or account have you concluded that all these individuals died as martyrs, as you assert?
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Jesus' disciples didn't die for a belief only; they saw Him resurrected.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Not available to unbelievers.
Jesus when He was Raised from the dead did not appear to anyone who did not believe.
Without FAITH, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God.
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cvanwey
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No reliable source even discloses 'how' any of the said disciples died; not really much even in the Bible itself. Non-partisan sources, like National Geographic, even states the following, due to the underwhelming and scarce available claimed sources Channel Homepage:
'Jesus’ death on the cross, as described in the New Testament, has become one of the most famous events. But what happened to the 12 disciples who were his closest followers? Not as much information has survived about their fates, but here is what’s available from various sources, including the a) New Testament itself, b) apocryphal texts, c) early Christian historians, d) legends and lore.'
a) Using the New Testament, to prove the New Testament, is just as circular as using the Quran to validate their claimed Islamic martyrs located in Chapter 3, Verse 169 (and) Chapter 46, Verse 14.
b) Apocryphal means - '(of a story or statement) of doubtful authenticity, although widely circulated as being true.' - Oxford Dictionary
c) A Christian historian will be bias towards their belief, just like a Muslim historian would be towards their beliefs.
D) Legends and lore is most likely the main culprit, as with many growing tales over time. The New Testament Bible was written decades after such claimed events, by way of oral tradition and/or claimed inspiration from god. Repeated story telling leads to fabrication, addition, subtraction, tales, and manipulation. Claims to authors receiving inspiration from god, especially from the anonymous authored sources, rely upon nothing other than faith to be true. Faith is belief in place of, or instead of, evidence. Please also remember we do not even have the original manuscripts.
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I told you already. Their belief didn't hold at the crucifixion, they panicked and denied Him. Seeing someone you knew was dead would be convincing to the point of martyrdom I would think.
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yeshuaslavejeff
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Jesus is REAL. I am His Servant. I abide in Him, and His Word Abides in me.
You rejected Him, and rejected God, so as Jesus says it is not me, but Him, that you reject. He is the judge, or perhaps your own words will judge you , as He Says.
He is the Only Way to the Father. There is no other Way.
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cvanwey
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No different than Abu Ghraib, where Muslim terrorists were tortured repeatedly, only to never recant their beliefs or information
So I'm still not seeing your point of how this makes it true, where the Muslims are false? The meter-stick is the same for both claims of opposing belief. Being tortured for belief is not a litmus test for truth.
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Are you for real?No different than Abu Ghraib, where Muslim terrorists were tortured repeatedly, only to never recant their beliefs or information
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cvanwey
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No, we are in the Matrix
But seriously.... There exists no evidence that such disciples were martyred. This is wishful thinking by later believers in an attempt to further substantiate or justify what they already believed. This is evidence by the fact that we have no accounts of such, other than from the bias source itself, the Bible.
By default, this did not happen. The onus is on the ones whom state it did. And the evidence is severely lacking for such a claim. And yet, for many other acts of martyrdom, we have much evidence. But the conclusion remains regardless.... How does dying for a belief make it true - (especially opposing belief systems)?
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Nope. You seem to be making some other point that isn’t directly related to what the discussion started with, which was about the nature of the gospels, the style in which they were written. If you want to make some other point, why not write a blog post?
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