The pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Daniel 7

BobRyan said:

Well we start with Daniel 9 where every Bible scholar on the planet freely (a generalization) admits that ...

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... Daniel 9 has no ancient fulfillment ...

DaDad

YeshuaFan said:

Actually, the Empires are Greece, Persian/mede, Babylonian, and Rome!

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Please find FIVE, as both Scripture and History provide ...

Thanks,
DaDad

BobRyan said:

I do not know where you get Bronze-Clay-Silver ...

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When my wife goesmakes TWO shopping lists. The first one is according to the chronological order (Intelligent Design) that she runs low on. Before she goes to the store she rewrites it according to the aisles in the store (Intelligent Design), and throws away the first list.

GOD uses Intelligent Design. Please throw away the first list (chronological) and use the SECOND one.

After you receive the significance of GOD's second list (i.e., that there are FIVE world empires) then please apply the Chapter 7 FOUR BEASTS as those concurrent participants in that FIFTH "divided kingdom".

Thanks,
DaDad

BobRyan said:

... Indeed it did -- it predicted the first coming of Christ as almost all Bible scholars freely admit.

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Are you saying that Jesus sinned? Apparently so! Of the 39 instances of mashiyach [H4899] the commentators decided to CAPITALIZE only TWO instances OF THE SAME WORD. And coincidentally enough, BOTH CAPITALIZATIONS are in Daniel 9. But it's the SAME WORD for ALL 39 instances. Me smells a rat.

If mashiyach [H4899] is a reference to Jesus, then apparently a provision had to be made for HIS sin. OR -- maybe NONE of the 39 references are for Jesus, and we've been lied to once again by the "church".

But then again, as my favorite aunt used to tease, "My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts", or so we practice.

And of course, if one considered the observation by Young, Keil, & Kliefoth, one should accept that the word "weeks" ("sevens") is in the unusual inconcise Masculne gender text, rather than the usual concise Feminine gender text:


Or, once again, we can ignore Scripture and believe that which isn't as though it were, but of such is are "christians".

Thanks,
DaDad

YeshuaFan said:

The remaining 7th Week many take to be the Great tribulation time for Israel, to prepare her to meet their Messiah, Jesus Christ at His second coming, and nothing to do with 1260 years and the Middle Ages as Sda holds!

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You are 100% correct my friend. Thanks for the imput.

DaDad said:

Leviticus 4:3 If the priest that is anointed [H4899] do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.​

Are you saying that Jesus sinned? Apparently so! Of the 39 instances of mashiyach [H4899] the commentators decided to CAPITALIZE only TWO instances OF THE SAME WORD. And coincidentally enough, BOTH CAPITALIZATIONS are in Daniel 9. But it's the SAME WORD for ALL 39 instances. Me smells a rat.

If mashiyach [H4899] is a reference to Jesus, then apparently a provision had to be made for HIS sin. OR -- maybe NONE of the 39 references are for Jesus, and we've been lied to once again by the "church".

But then again, as my favorite aunt used to tease, "My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts", or so we practice.

And of course, if one considered the observation by Young, Keil, & Kliefoth, one should accept that the word "weeks" ("sevens") is in the unusual inconcise Masculne gender text, rather than the usual concise Feminine gender text:

In the book, “Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation,” John Walvoord writes regarding the interpretation of the seventy “weeks:”

“... as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’”[1]

“...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keil and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.”[2]

[1] John Wolvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217
[2] IBID, p. 218​

Or, once again, we can ignore Scripture and believe that which isn't as though it were, but of such is are "christians".

Thanks,
DaDad

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If it runs like a RAT, and looks like a RAT, and smells like a RAT, then there is a real good chance that it is a RAT!

YeshuaFan said:

The prophecy states that it was to be given to future Israel, "Your own people", as it relates to us the terrible time of Antichrist and the Jews people in last days!

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Correct. When the word "SAINTS" are used by Daniel, it is a referrance to the JEWS and has nothing to do with Gentiles or the church.

Daniel 7:18...…….
"But the saints (JEWS) of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever."

BobRyan said:

Jesus is God (YHWH) in the OT - and also "the Son of man" in Daniel 7. He is infinite God the Son , second person of the Godhead in all ages -- that includes the OT.

However in Genesis 18 God (YHWH) appears to Abraham "as one of 3 men" walking toward him. That does not mean God is "merely a man" it only means he took on that appearance for Abraham.

John 1 says no one (on Earth) has seen the Father at anytime - so the member of the infinite eternal Godhead that Abraham sees in Genesis 18 - is God the Son who has veiled His glory to appear in the form of a man to Abraham.

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All of the appearance in the Old Test. are called "CHRISTOFANIES" = a Visual Manifestion of Christ.

He was clothed in a body of flesh for the message He wanted to give to those who needed it....ie, Moses, Abraham, Joshua etc.

GingerBeer said:

Too much like abacus calculations for me. I can't see the value in it all. It's unlikely Daniel was writing about Jesus specifically. Maybe he made some comments like Isaiah did that can be applied to Jesus but the idea that he had a time table and abacus calculations all worked out to predict the exact year of Jesus's birth or Jesus' baptism smacks of after the fact reading of events into the prophecy.

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That may be true, OR it may be that Daniel was absolutely correct in what he said.

Actually, what Danielo said 400 years before the event happened on the EXACT day He said.

BobRyan said:

DaDad said:

Leviticus 4:3 If the priest that is anointed [H4899] do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.

Are you saying that Jesus sinned? Apparently so!
...
If mashiyach [H4899] is a reference to Jesus, then apparently a provision had to be made for HIS sin.

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No - I said nothing of the kind. Not sure where you get that.
...

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If you use Scripture as provided then you must apply it across the board. Thus apparently Jesus had to have some means for atoning HIS sin.

BobRyan said:

Some bad guessing there. Nothing of the sort in Dan 9 and as we all know Hebrew is a "high context language" where the word alone does not determine the meaning - but rather context+word. Exegesis matters.

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Yeah, a lot of people use words "selectively" when they don't wish to tell the truth. For example: "It depends on what the meaning of is is." Perhaps Scripture is CORRECT and your "version" is INCORRECT. But to prove your point, you should defend each aspect of your Daniel 9 "context", starting with WHY you disobeyed the angels instructions in 12:4 & 9 which DEMANDS that these prophecies are not ancient, but are preserved for the era approximate to 1948.


I might have missed it, but I didn't think mass transit (Many shall run to and fro) and computers (and knowledge shall increase) existed during Jesus' time, -- but I could be wrong.

And after you've defended your disobedience to 12:4 & 9, then maybe we can discuss if the "going forth of the word" was from a Persian man/king, -- to keep things in "context".

Thanks,
DaDad

Major1 said:

Correct. When the word "SAINTS" are used by Daniel, it is a referrance to the JEWS and has nothing to do with Gentiles or the church.

Daniel 7:18...…….
"But the saints (JEWS) of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever."

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Well, sometimes doctrines fail us in significant ways. It's clear that the Scholars see things which they cannot resolve, but that doesn't keep the commentators from spinning their ~best lie~ in some type of attempt to ~exhort~ the church that ~scripture is true~.

Take the Book of Daniel. Many are convinced that this Book is written to the Jews, and everything in the OT is Jewish centric. But the Book of Daniel is different. It's written to the nations, -- with the ONLY exception in Daniel 9 where Daniel had to don Jeremiah's mantle so that he could prophesy to his kinsmen. But ALL other instances, including the account of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed′nego is a testimony and/or prophecy for the nations.

Perhaps the commentators should have waited until the "end time" before they attempted to unseal this Book.

DaDad

GingerBeer said:

... It's unlikely Daniel was writing about Jesus specifically. ...

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FINALLY, someone who has some perception.

There is absolutely NOTHING in Daniel 9 which remotely supports a "Jesus" fulfillment. The text, context, and history all refute any such premise.

... Now there are a couple of "kings" which DO fulfill the text, context, and history, -- but you won't find them in ANY commentary. Perhaps the commentators should have followed the angel's instructions in 12:4 & 9.

Thanks,
DaDad

Daniel 2:

Dan 2:16 Then Daniel went in, and desired of the king that he would give him time, and that he would shew the king the interpretation.

Dan 2:22 He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.
Dan 2:23 I thank thee, and praise thee, O thou God of my fathers, who hast given me wisdom and might, and hast made known unto me now what we desired of thee: for thou hast now made known unto us the king's matter.

Dan 2:24 Therefore Daniel went in unto Arioch, whom the king had ordained to destroy the wise men of Babylon: he went and said thus unto him; Destroy not the wise men of Babylon: bring me in before the king, and I will shew unto the king the interpretation.

Dan 2:25 Then Arioch brought in Daniel before the king in haste, and said thus unto him, I have found a man of the captives of Judah, that will make known unto the king the interpretation.

Dan 2:28 But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;
Dan 2:29 As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.
Dan 2:30 But as for me, this secret is not revealed to me for any wisdom that I have more than any living, but for their sakes that shall make known the interpretation to the king, and that thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart.

Nebuchadnezzar was a student of prophecy, and was interested in the subject, and is what brought him to know Jesus Christ, even as it is written:

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

The interpretation is given by God (through Daniel), as it is written (Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20).

The Dream itself of what Nebuchadnezzar and Daniel both saw, from God (and no one many change the order of it)

[0] a great image (of the shape of a man, a single unit (kingdom), divided by various elements); Daniel 2:31

Dan 2:31 Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible.

[1] Head of fine gold; Daniel 2:32a

Dan 2:32 This image's head was of fine gold

[2] Breast (chest) and arms of silver; Daniel 2:32b

Dan 2:32 This image's ... his breast and his arms of silver,

[3] belly (waist) and thighs (upper leg to the knee) of brass; Daniel 2:32c

Dan 2:32 This image's ... his belly and his thighs of brass,

[4A] legs (the calves, the knees area to the upper ankle) of iron; Daniel 2:33a

Dan 2:33 His legs of iron ...

[4B] feet (upper ankles to the tips of the toes) of iron mixd with clay; Daniel 2:33b

Dan 2:33 ... his feet part of iron and part of clay.

Notice that the feet, are not entirly a new elemental kingdom, but a division of the previous, having the same material, "iron" in it, though being mixed with an additional element, "clay". Thus it is a continuation of the previous, with additional material dividing it into a weaker state of existence.

[End A] a stone smashes the image upon the feet, braking them to pieces; Daniel 2:34

Dan 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

[End B] the smashed pieces are blown away, as chaff of the "summer threshing floor" (Matthew 24:32; Mark 13:28; Luke 21:30; Jeremiah 8:20; Isaiah 18:6), and the stone becomes a great mountain, filling all the earth; Daniel 2:35

Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

That is the Dream, the Vision, the Symbol.

Dan 2:36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.

Now, Daniel gives the interpretation, which no man after him can alter:

[1] The head (of a man, of the Image) of gold = the "kingdom" of Babylon, of which at the time, was presently being ruled by its "ruler", the "King" Nebuchadnezzar (and later his descendants, unto Belshazzar); Daniel 2:37,38

Dan 2:37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
Dan 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.

Isaiah, before Daniel, also identitified Babylon as the "golden" city, the glory of Kingdoms:

Isa 13:19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

Isa_14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

Ezekiel also identified the King of Babylon, as the "king of kings":

Eze_26:7 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people.

Thus, chiasmus:

Daniel 2:32 (Symbol) = Daniel 2:37,38 (Interpretation of Symbol)

[2] Breast (chest) and arms of silver = "another (second) kingdom" that "after thee (head of gold)" "shall arise" being "inferior to thee (gold)"

Dan 2:39a And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee,

Daniel 2, does not immediately identify by name this next kingdom, but it doesn't need to, as Isaiah (Isaiah 13:17, 21:2,6 (Elam (Persia))), Jeremiah (Jeremiah 25:25, 51:11,28), and Daniel (later; Daniel 5:28, 6:8,12,15, 8:2,3,20, 9:1, 10:1,13,20, 11:2) do, being the "kingdom" of Media-Persia (later Persia-Media; Esther 1:3,14,18,19, 10:2; Daniel 8:3,20).

[3] belly (waist) and thighs (upper leg to the knee) of brass = "another third kingdom" of "brass", which shall "bear rule over all the earth"

Daniel 2:39b ... and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Daniel 2, does not immediately identify by name this "third" kingdom, but it doesn't need to as Isaiah (Isaiah 66:19), Ezekiel (Ezekiel 27:13,19, "brass"), and Daniel (later; Daniel 7:19, 8:8,21, 10:20, 11:2) and Zechariah (Zechariah 9:13) do, being the "kingdom" of Grecia/Javan (aka: "Isles of the Sea" (Gentiles); Esther 10:2; Daniel 11:2)

[4A] legs (the calves, the knees area to the upper ankle) of iron = "the fourth kingdom" which is "as strong as Iron", conquering everything

Dan 2:40A And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: ...

Daniel 2, does not immediately identify by name this "fourth kingdom", but it doesn't need to as Moses (repetition; Daniel 28:48-53, "iron", "eagle", "fierce countenance"; Daniel 8:23), Daniel (later; Daniel 7:7, "iron", "fourth", 7:17,19, "four, fourth, of iron", 7:23, "fourth kingdom", "break it in pieces"; 9:26, 11:20, "be destroyed (broken to pieces)") and others do (Matthew 24:28; Luke 17:37, "eagles"; John 11:48; Acts 2:10, 16:21,37,38, 18:2, 19:21, 22:25,26,27,29, 23:11,27, 25:16, 28:14,16,17; Romans 1:7,15; 2 Timothy 1:17; Revelation 12:3-4), being the "kingdom" of (Pagan) Rome ("Caesar"; Matthew 22:17,21; Mark 12:14,16,17; Luke 2:1, 3:1, 20:22,24,25, 23:2; John 19:12,15; Acts 11:28, 17:7, 25:8,10,11,12,21, 26:32, 27:24, 28:29; Philippians 4:22; also the "taxes";
Daniel 2:40, 11:20; Matthew 10:3, 22:17-21; Mark 2:14, 12:14,16,17; Luke 2:1,3,5, 5:27,29, 19:2, 20:22,24,25, 23:2; Romans 13:7)

[4B] feet (upper ankles to the tips of the toes) of iron mixd with clay = the 'broken' (divided) "kingdom" of Iron, that has become mixed wih "clay"

Daniel 2:40B ... and as iron that breaketh all these (Gold, Silver, Brass), shall it (Iron) break in pieces and bruise.
Dan 2:41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Dan 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

Dan 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.

Daniel 2, does not immediately identify by name this "fourth" kingdom 'broken', but it doesn't need to as the previous prophets and persons already identified the "fourth kingdom" when it was whole, and Daniel also mentions this broken fourth kingdom (Pagan Roman empire divided, and becomes Papal Rome) in further chapters (Daniel 7:7, "ten horns" (a division), 7:8, "another little horn" with "eyes of a man", (man was made of "clay"; Job 10:9, 13:12, 33:6; Psalms 40:2; Isaiah 29:16, 45:9, 64:8; Jeremiah 18:4, 18:6; John 9:6,11,14,15; Romans 9:21); ; thus differing from the previous, 7:20, "ten horns that were in its head" (a division), 7:20, "the other (horn) which came up", having "eyes" and "mouth" of a man (who was made of "clay"); 8:20, "understanding dark sentences" (proverbs, prophecy, etc, thus it understands religion of the Bible), 11:20, "be destroyed (broken to pieces)", Daniel 11:21, then comes in the "vile person" (man of sin, son of perdition), which is later given an army (Daniel 11:31); 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4; Revelation 13:1-2)

This division lasts until the second Advent.

[End A] a stone smashes the image upon the feet, braking them to pieces = Second Advent of Jesus Christ, the Corner Stone, whose 2nd coming destroys the kingdoms of this world:

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

The "Stone" is Jesus Christ (Psalms 118:22; Isaiah 28:16; Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17; Acts 4:11; 1 Corinthians 10:4; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:6,7), and He obtains the Kingdom (Daniel 7:14; Revelation 11:15), and at His Second Advent all the kingdoms are smashed, but the lives are prolonged for a season (1,000 years in the grave) until their execution in the 3rd Advent (Isaiah 24; Revelation 20, etc), see also Daniel 7:26, 11:45, 12:1-3; Revelation 20:1-3.

[End B] the smashed pieces are blown away, as chaff of the "summer threshing floor" (Matthew 24:32; Mark 13:28; Luke 21:30; Jeremiah 8:20; Isaiah 18:6), and the stone becomes a great mountain, filling all the earth = the 3rd Advent, New Heavens and New Earth, Saints inherit all things

Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Daniel 2:45 in listing "iron", "brass", "clay", "silver", "gold", is simply listing the 5 elements that make up the great Image, and is not listing them in specific order. No man can re-interpret what Daniel, and the other prophets before and ofter identified the elements/kingdoms as.

Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Deu 5:16 Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Isa_65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa_66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Dan 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

2Pe_3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev_21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

BobRyan said:

Well we start with Daniel 9 where every Bible scholar on the planet freely (a generalization) admits that

1. Dan 9 is apocalyptic text
2. Dan 9 is using day-for-year expansion
3. This 70 week, 490 year timeline works out to predict the first coming of Christ.

from 457 B.C. to A.D. 27 the baptism of Christ at 69 weeks (483 years) and the remaining 7 years including the 3 and one half year ministry of Christ at which point He is "cut off" - crucified... and the remaining 3.5 years taking us to the stoning of Stephen and the start of Paul's ministry to the gentiles.






I am asking that because you are jumping into the middle of a discussion with GingerB where he is arguing against the idea that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 are in fact "70 weeks of years" as all Bible scholars argue that it is.



All Bible timelines are contiguous. Thus the 70 years of Jeremiah mentioned in Daniel 9:1-7 cannot be diced and sliced and scattered all over the timeline. Bits-and pieces with gaps of undefined time inserted into the middle.

But even if you do not follow the details on that point - you are posting as if you believe that the 70 weeks are 70 "weeks of years" and not merely a literal year and 18 weeks long. Which is the whole point Ginger is debating.



Indeed it did -- it predicted the first coming of Christ as almost all Bible scholars freely admit.

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The 70th week still ahs yet to be fulfilled, cannot happen until the prince to come, the Antichrist, is set up and tries to destroy Israel!

liberty of conscience said:

Daniel 2:45 in listing "iron", "brass", "clay", "silver", "gold", is simply listing the 5 elements that make up the great Image, and is not listing them in specific order. No man can re-interpret what Daniel, and the other prophets before and after identified the elements/kingdoms as.

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Yep, and when my wife make a grocery list (Intelligent Design -- chronological) and then re-writes it according to the store aisles (Intelligent Design) and throws away the first, -- apparently SHE's SMARTER THAN GOD! Because GOD is often confused, disoriented, distracted, or simply random -- and seldom uses Intelligent Design in HIS explanations to his creation.

And of course, who would be so gullible to think that our present "kingdom" is "divided" between three superpowers and the United Nations. (Ref. 2:41) What rubbish.

MOST of us are -- Smarter than GOD!
DaDad