A question about 4 Ezra

Anthony16

Active Member
Oct 18, 2018
57
16
21
Private
✟13,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
2 Esdras - Wikipedia

I started reading this book because it’s a very important work in Christian history. The Georgian Orthodox Church, the Armenian Apostolic Church, and the Orthodox Tewahedo Church accepts it as canon as well as Protestants and Catholics who regard it as good to read. So I started reading it and it’s very strange. Ezra seems to regard Uriel as if he was God. Uriel also seems to talk like he is God. Like these verses 5:38-45

5:38 And I said, O Lord that bearest rule, who may know these things, but he that hath not his dwelling with men?
5:39 As for me, I am unwise: how may I then speak of these things whereof thou askest me?
5:40 Then said he unto me, Like as thou canst do none of these things that I have spoken of, even so canst thou not find out my judgment, or in the end the love that I have promised unto my people.
5:41 And I said, Behold, O Lord, yet art thou nigh unto them that be reserved till the end: and what shall they do that have been before me, or we that be now, or they that shall come after us?
5:42 And he said unto me, I will liken my judgment unto a ring: like as there is no slackness of the last, even so there is no swiftness of the first.
5:43 So I answered and said, Couldest thou not make those that have been made, and be now, and that are for to come, at once; that thou mightest shew thy judgment the sooner?
5:44 Then answered he me, and said, The creature may not haste above the maker; neither may the world hold them at once that shall be created therein.
5:45 And I said, As thou hast said unto thy servant, that thou, which givest life to all, hast given life at once to the creature that thou hast created, and the creature bare it: even so it might now also bear them that now be present at once.

This sounds like Uriel will Judges us not God which is not Biblical. I am just reading this wrong?
 

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,520
9,015
Florida
✟325,351.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
2 Esdras - Wikipedia

I started reading this book because it’s a very important work in Christian history. The Georgian Orthodox Church, the Armenian Apostolic Church, and the Orthodox Tewahedo Church accepts it as canon as well as Protestants and Catholics who regard it as good to read. So I started reading it and it’s very strange. Ezra seems to regard Uriel as if he was God. Uriel also seems to talk like he is God. Like these verses 5:38-45

5:38 And I said, O Lord that bearest rule, who may know these things, but he that hath not his dwelling with men?
5:39 As for me, I am unwise: how may I then speak of these things whereof thou askest me?
5:40 Then said he unto me, Like as thou canst do none of these things that I have spoken of, even so canst thou not find out my judgment, or in the end the love that I have promised unto my people.
5:41 And I said, Behold, O Lord, yet art thou nigh unto them that be reserved till the end: and what shall they do that have been before me, or we that be now, or they that shall come after us?
5:42 And he said unto me, I will liken my judgment unto a ring: like as there is no slackness of the last, even so there is no swiftness of the first.
5:43 So I answered and said, Couldest thou not make those that have been made, and be now, and that are for to come, at once; that thou mightest shew thy judgment the sooner?
5:44 Then answered he me, and said, The creature may not haste above the maker; neither may the world hold them at once that shall be created therein.
5:45 And I said, As thou hast said unto thy servant, that thou, which givest life to all, hast given life at once to the creature that thou hast created, and the creature bare it: even so it might now also bear them that now be present at once.

This sounds like Uriel will Judges us not God which is not Biblical. I am just reading this wrong?

It's probably that the title "lord" is used and that a judgment will be pronounced that makes it seem that the angel is God, or that he seems to be usurping the power and title of God.

"Lord" is a title of respect that we normally reserve for God, but that is not the only usage of the title. It means actually a superior, and is used in other instances such as landlord. I once read a letter from George Washington that he wrote to a British general during the revolutionary war. It began, "My Lord...".

The other odd part is that the angel seems to be judging the people. That is correct, but the angel can only judge in what he is commissioned to judge, such as an "avenging angel".
 
Upvote 0

Anthony16

Active Member
Oct 18, 2018
57
16
21
Private
✟13,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It's probably that the title "lord" is used and that a judgment will be pronounced that makes it seem that the angel is God, or that he seems to be usurping the power and title of God.

"Lord" is a title of respect that we normally reserve for God, but that is not the only usage of the title. It means actually a superior, and is used in other instances such as landlord. I once read a letter from George Washington that he wrote to a British general during the revolutionary war. It began, "My Lord...".

The other odd part is that the angel seems to be judging the people. That is correct, but the angel can only judge in what he is commissioned to judge, such as an "avenging angel".
Well I knew that Ezra calling Uriel Lord is like us calling someone sir but still the rest is strange.
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,455
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I am more wondering why an angel seems to be creator. God could give an angel authority to judge (not that I ever heard He will, but at a point it references us humans judging angels). And I agree "Lord" has other uses. But only God creates. So that's the question I would be asking.
 
Upvote 0

Anthony16

Active Member
Oct 18, 2018
57
16
21
Private
✟13,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
it could be God speaking through Uriel.

that is interesting though
That is what I was thinking at first but there is no mention of this unlike when a Prophet is speaking the words of the Lord he makes it quite clear.
 
Upvote 0

Anthony16

Active Member
Oct 18, 2018
57
16
21
Private
✟13,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I am more wondering why an angel seems to be creator. God could give an angel authority to judge (not that I ever heard He will, but at a point it references us humans judging angels). And I agree "Lord" has other uses. But only God creates. So that's the question I would be asking.
2 Esdras 6:1-6 seems to say that Uriel is the creator

2 Esdras 6:1 And he said unto me, In the beginning, when the earth was made, before the borders of the world stood, or ever the winds blew,
2 Esdras 6:2 Before it thundered and lightened, or ever the foundations of paradise were laid,
2 Esdras 6:3 Before the fair flowers were seen, or ever the moveable powers were established, before the innumerable multitude of angels were gathered together,
2 Esdras 6:4 Or ever the heights of the air were lifted up, before the measures of the firmament were named, or ever the chimneys in Sion were hot,
2 Esdras 6:5 And ere the present years were sought out, and or ever the inventions of them that now sin were turned, before they were sealed that have gathered faith for a treasure:
2 Esdras 6:6 Then did I consider these things, and they all were made through me alone, and through none other: by me also they shall be ended, and by none other.

Also 6:49-52 is very strange as well

2 Esdras 6:49 Then didst thou ordain two living creatures, the one thou calledst Enoch, and the other Leviathan;
2 Esdras 6:50 And didst separate the one from the other: for the seventh part, namely, where the water was gathered together, might not hold them both.
2 Esdras 6:51 Unto Enoch thou gavest one part, which was dried up the third day, that he should dwell in the same part, wherein are a thousand hills:
2 Esdras 6:51 Unto Enoch thou gavest one part, which was dried up the third day, that he should dwell in the same part, wherein are a thousand hills:
2 Esdras 6:52 But unto Leviathan thou gavest the seventh part, namely, the moist; and hast kept him to be devoured of whom thou wilt, and when.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,562
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,466,914.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
That is what I was thinking at first but there is no mention of this unlike when a Prophet is speaking the words of the Lord he makes it quite clear.

sure, but it could be assumed since we are writing to a Jewish or Christian audience, who would know that only God created and judges.
 
Upvote 0

Devin P

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2017
1,280
631
31
Michigan
✟99,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
2 Esdras - Wikipedia

I started reading this book because it’s a very important work in Christian history. The Georgian Orthodox Church, the Armenian Apostolic Church, and the Orthodox Tewahedo Church accepts it as canon as well as Protestants and Catholics who regard it as good to read. So I started reading it and it’s very strange. Ezra seems to regard Uriel as if he was God. Uriel also seems to talk like he is God. Like these verses 5:38-45

5:38 And I said, O Lord that bearest rule, who may know these things, but he that hath not his dwelling with men?
5:39 As for me, I am unwise: how may I then speak of these things whereof thou askest me?
5:40 Then said he unto me, Like as thou canst do none of these things that I have spoken of, even so canst thou not find out my judgment, or in the end the love that I have promised unto my people.
5:41 And I said, Behold, O Lord, yet art thou nigh unto them that be reserved till the end: and what shall they do that have been before me, or we that be now, or they that shall come after us?
5:42 And he said unto me, I will liken my judgment unto a ring: like as there is no slackness of the last, even so there is no swiftness of the first.
5:43 So I answered and said, Couldest thou not make those that have been made, and be now, and that are for to come, at once; that thou mightest shew thy judgment the sooner?
5:44 Then answered he me, and said, The creature may not haste above the maker; neither may the world hold them at once that shall be created therein.
5:45 And I said, As thou hast said unto thy servant, that thou, which givest life to all, hast given life at once to the creature that thou hast created, and the creature bare it: even so it might now also bear them that now be present at once.

This sounds like Uriel will Judges us not God which is not Biblical. I am just reading this wrong?
The way I see it, is a bit hard to explain, but I'll try my best. Uriel, in hebrew, means God is my light, or My light is God.

All throughout the bible, we have examples of "Malachim", hebrew for messengers, or angels, coming in the name of God as a type of representative. Uriel in this instance, would be one of those messengers, but he's talking as if He's God, and Ezra is treating Him as if He is God, and He isn't rejecting it. We can gather that this particular Melach (messenger/angel) is an angel of the Lord. Meaning, He is God coming in a form that is observable by humans.

God in His natural state, is too glorious for this creation to handle. It would be destroyed, so merciful as He is, interacts with His creation in a way He knows won't hurt it. Which is why we see various different angels throughout scripture that didn't reject worship. Because they were Him. Those that reject it, aren't, but are Malachim, or messengers.

This is what the cloud and pillar of fire were that led Israel out of Egypt. It was Jesus, the Arm and Name of God, enabling God to interact with His creation without destroying it. So no, it's scriptural, it's just a version of Himself He's using to interact with Creation. Like the three Malachim sent to Abraham.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: “Paisios”
Upvote 0

Anthony16

Active Member
Oct 18, 2018
57
16
21
Private
✟13,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The way I see it, is a bit hard to explain, but I'll try my best. Uriel, in hebrew, means God is my light, or My light is God.

All throughout the bible, we have examples of "Malachim", hebrew for messengers, or angels, coming in the name of God as a type of representative. Uriel in this instance, would be one of those messengers, but he's talking as if He's God, and Ezra is treating Him as if He is God, and He isn't rejecting it. We can gather that this particular Melach (messenger/angel) is an angel of the Lord. Meaning, He is God coming in a form that is observable by humans.

God in His natural state, is too glorious for this creation to handle. It would be destroyed, so merciful as He is, interacts with His creation in a way He knows won't hurt it. Which is why we see various different angels throughout scripture that didn't reject worship. Because they were Him. Those that reject it, aren't, but are Malachim, or messengers.

This is what the cloud and pillar of fire were that led Israel out of Egypt. It was Jesus, the Arm and Name of God, enabling God to interact with His creation without destroying it. So no, it's scriptural, it's just a version of Himself He's using to interact with Creation. Like the three Malachim sent to Abraham.
But Uriel calls himself a Archangel not a Angel of the Lord. Also I believe everytime a Angel of the Lord is shown in the Bible it doesn’t give him a name.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Anthony16

Active Member
Oct 18, 2018
57
16
21
Private
✟13,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
sure, but it could be assumed since we are writing to a Jewish or Christian audience, who would know that only God created and judges.
I quess but still one little mention of Uriel saying “this says the Lord” couldn’t hurt and would clear up any confusion a reader would have.
 
Upvote 0

Devin P

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2017
1,280
631
31
Michigan
✟99,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
But Uriel calls himself a Archangel not a Angel of the Lord. Also I believe everytime a Angel of the Lord is shown in the Bible it doesn’t give him a name.
Michael was an Archangel as well, and He accepted the worship of Joshua.

If Michael was not God, He would've rejected the worship. Just as Uriel, if He wasn't God interacting with His creation, He would've rejected Ezra talking to Him as if He was.

Archangel just means head or chief of people.
 
Upvote 0

Anthony16

Active Member
Oct 18, 2018
57
16
21
Private
✟13,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
2 Esdras 7:1 And when I had made an end of speaking these words, there was sent unto me the angel which had been sent unto me the nights afore:
2 Esdras 7:2 And he said unto me, Up, Esdras, and hear the words that I am come to tell thee.
2 Esdras 7:3 And I said, Speak on, my God. Then said he unto me, The sea is set in a wide place, that it might be deep and great.

So it does seem like maybe Uriel is just telling Ezra a message from God but why does Ezra what he did?
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,562
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,466,914.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
I quess but still one little mention of Uriel saying “this says the Lord” couldn’t hurt and would clear up any confusion a reader would have.

yeah, but Apocalyptic stuff can make assumptions the audience would know
 
Upvote 0

Anthony16

Active Member
Oct 18, 2018
57
16
21
Private
✟13,003.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Michael was an Archangel as well, and He accepted the worship of Joshua.

If Michael was not God, He would've rejected the worship. Just as Uriel, if He wasn't God interacting with His creation, He would've rejected Ezra talking to Him as if He was.

Archangel just means head or chief of people.
Are sure that the Captain of the host of the LORD was Michael? I thought that it was Christ.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Devin P

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2017
1,280
631
31
Michigan
✟99,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Are sure that the Captain of the host of the LORD was Michael? I thought that it was Christ.
It is Christ, but, it's also Michael, because Michael is Christ.

Jos 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?

The one who was captain of the host of the LORD in Joshua 5:14, was Michael.
 
Upvote 0

Devin P

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2017
1,280
631
31
Michigan
✟99,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Are sure that the Captain of the host of the LORD was Michael? I thought that it was Christ.
It's also why, if you read Joshua 6, the very next chapter, Michael is still talking, but He outright calls Himself the Lord.
 
Upvote 0

~Anastasia~

† Handmaid of God †
Dec 1, 2013
31,133
17,455
Florida panhandle, USA
✟922,775.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
By the way, welcome to CF and to TAW. :)

2 Esdras 6:1-6 seems to say that Uriel is the creator

2 Esdras 6:1 And he said unto me, In the beginning, when the earth was made, before the borders of the world stood, or ever the winds blew,
2 Esdras 6:2 Before it thundered and lightened, or ever the foundations of paradise were laid,
2 Esdras 6:3 Before the fair flowers were seen, or ever the moveable powers were established, before the innumerable multitude of angels were gathered together,
2 Esdras 6:4 Or ever the heights of the air were lifted up, before the measures of the firmament were named, or ever the chimneys in Sion were hot,
2 Esdras 6:5 And ere the present years were sought out, and or ever the inventions of them that now sin were turned, before they were sealed that have gathered faith for a treasure:
2 Esdras 6:6 Then did I consider these things, and they all were made through me alone, and through none other: by me also they shall be ended, and by none other.

Also 6:49-52 is very strange as well

2 Esdras 6:49 Then didst thou ordain two living creatures, the one thou calledst Enoch, and the other Leviathan;
2 Esdras 6:50 And didst separate the one from the other: for the seventh part, namely, where the water was gathered together, might not hold them both.
2 Esdras 6:51 Unto Enoch thou gavest one part, which was dried up the third day, that he should dwell in the same part, wherein are a thousand hills:
2 Esdras 6:51 Unto Enoch thou gavest one part, which was dried up the third day, that he should dwell in the same part, wherein are a thousand hills:
2 Esdras 6:52 But unto Leviathan thou gavest the seventh part, namely, the moist; and hast kept him to be devoured of whom thou wilt, and when.

I don't have answers. All I can say is that I'm reminded of the book of Enoch, which is not canon for us but is for I think the Ethiopians. It has to be understood a certain way as well - to take some of it literally would be problematic.

I'm not sure if it's case that we need a certain understanding first to read this. But it sounds like that could be the case.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,562
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,466,914.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Is there examples like this from other Apocalyptic literature?

sure, like in Revelation, the city on 7 hills everyone would know to be a reference to Rome. yet, we know there is also a deeper meaning.
 
Upvote 0