How is free will possible?

durangodawood · Nov 1, 2018

Dave L said:
You choose based on what you want most. What you want by nature is beyond your control, and under God's control.

So the buck doesnt stop with you. Its stops with God. So its Gods choice, not yours.

Dave L · Nov 1, 2018

durangodawood said:
So the buck doesnt stop with you. Its stops with God. So its Gods choice, not yours.

Ultimately yes. But you want to choose what you do so you incur the guilt.

durangodawood · Nov 1, 2018

Dave L said:
Ultimately yes. But you want to choose what you do so you incur the guilt.

You just said a post or two ago that our wants are determined by God.

jayem · Nov 1, 2018

holo said:
Anyway, I'm wondering how a truly free will can even be possible? The reason I doubt it is because absolutely everything, even the tiniest signal between two synapses in your brain, happens for a reason. The only way to alter the outcome of something is to alter the conditions. In other words, if you rewind time for, say, 10 minutes, without changing anything, the exact same thing would happen a million times in a row, whether it's a coin toss or a thought. At what point, and how, does this proposed free will enter the equation?

Note: don't confuse making choices with having free will. We obviously make choices all the time. The question is if the choice could in fact really have been different, given all the things that lead up to that choice. As far as I can tell, the only way for your brain to have made a different choice, is if your brain was different to begin with.

I agree. We don’t have absolute free will. As you note, our behavior at any point in time is a product of the neural circuitry in our brain. And if our brain is in exactly the same state at another time, we would behave exactly the same. But a physiologically normal brain is dynamic. It’s always changing. It’s constant receiving and processing sensory input (even during sleep.) New neural pathways are continually forming and re-forming. So, the chance that our brain is ever in exactly the same state at two different times is vanishingly remote. This gives us the impression that we have a free will to make different choices. But I call it a relative free will. It’s not absolute.

Dave L · Nov 1, 2018

durangodawood said:
You just said a post or two ago that our wants are determined by God.

He gives us our nature. We cannot choose our nature.

Strathos · Nov 1, 2018

Dave-W said:
Quantum physics has no bearing on the spirit world.

OP was only describing the physical world so I was pointing out that even by those criteria he was wrong.

RDKirk · Nov 1, 2018

Dave-W said:
Quantum physics has no bearing on the spirit world.

It might ultimately be the spirit world. The spirit world is a created realm, after all, just as the material realm is a created realm. We don't know that there is no relationship between the two created realms, and it's more likely that there is.

durangodawood · Nov 1, 2018

Dave L said:
He gives us our nature. We cannot choose our nature.

But is there anything that we, and no one else, can ultimately choose?

Dave L · Nov 1, 2018

durangodawood said:
But is there anything that we, and no one else, can ultimately choose?

We always choose for the reason we like best. But God presents us with the reasons we choose what we do.

durangodawood · Nov 1, 2018

Dave L said:
We always choose for the reason we like best. But God presents us with the reasons we choose what we do.

I'm fine if you're trying to describe a paradox, something that doesnt make sense..... just so long as you're aware it doesnt make sense.

Dave L · Nov 1, 2018

durangodawood said:
I'm fine if you're trying to describe a paradox, something that doesnt make sense..... just so long as you're aware it doesnt make sense.

It makes sense that you would choose to respond to this thread for reasons beyond your control.

com7fy8 · Nov 1, 2018

loveofourlord said:
does the rage killer have free will to not kill, does the person whose mental makeup makes them physically sick have free will to kill?

What they do have is their character which makes them able to hurt or to do good. Their will is attached to their character.

So, in case a person has the nature of love >

"Love does no harm to a neighbor;" (in Romans 13:10)

Going by this scripture, I personally understand that a person can not hurt others if the person has the nature of God's love > 1 John 4:17. So, in case a person is able to kill and hurt others, out of rage, this is because of the person's character, deeper than one's will and mind, which determines what one can will and think.

So, a person's will, if this is correct, is limited to how one's character is.

But God is able to change a person and draw someone to Jesus.

loveofourlord · Nov 1, 2018

com7fy8 said:
What they do have is their character which makes them able to hurt or to do good. Their will is attached to their character.

So, in case a person has the nature of love >

"Love does no harm to a neighbor;" (in Romans 13:10)

Going by this scripture, I personally understand that a person can not hurt others if the person has the nature of God's love > 1 John 4:17. So, in case a person is able to kill and hurt others, out of rage, this is because of the person's character, deeper than one's will and mind, which determines what one can will and think.

So, a person's will, if this is correct, is limited to how one's character is.

But God is able to change a person and draw someone to Jesus.

then thats not free will if it can be changed by someone else.

Uber Genius · Nov 1, 2018

RDKirk said:
I would disagree. Scripture denies free will when it tells us that every person is a slave that must obey a master, and that our only choice is in which master we will be enslaved to.

So why does Paul use the analogy you use (slavery to sin) and yet plead with people to be saved? That is not possible on your view of determinism. No appeal to individuals to think one way, or evidentiary appeal, or appeal to act would make any sense whatsoever on your view, yet Paul makes those pleas in every book he writes.

MoneyGuy · Nov 1, 2018

We have free will to make our own decisions. God knows what decisions we will make.

I don’t see a contradiction.

Ken-1122 · Nov 1, 2018

Dave L said:
How can anything not true be proof?

People use false information to support their claims all the time! But their claims are as faulty as the false information they use as proof.

Dave L said:
We are a corrupt race of sinners. Babies who never consciously sin die because the wages of sin is death.

So is that a yes? So it is your position that God used John Wayne Gacy to torture and murder those children because they were born sinners?

Dave L · Nov 1, 2018

Ken-1122 said:
People use false information to support their claims all the time! But their claims are as faulty as the false information they use as proof.

So is that a yes? So it is your position that God used John Wayne Gacy to torture and murder those children because they were born sinners?

Probably because of their sinful lifestyle choices, but only God knows for sure.

durangodawood · Nov 1, 2018

Dave L said:
It makes sense that you would choose to respond to this thread for reasons beyond your control.

No it doesnt. You are destroying the idea "choose" to make that statement.

Dave L · Nov 1, 2018

durangodawood said:
No it doesnt. You are destroying the idea "choose" to make that statement.

Your nature is driving your decisions.

holo · Nov 1, 2018

Ken-1122 said:
Your argument seems to be that I don't have freewill because I am forced to do whatever I want to do. (which sounds absurd to me) So consider a scenario that I DID have freewill; how would my actions be different?

Yeah, it does sound kind of absurd. The point is that even if you choose to do what you want to do, you don't get to choose what it is that you want. Like when the bible says a sinner can't not sin. You may say he sins because he wants to sin, but wanting to sin isn't a choice. So even though we make choices all the time, the things that decide what choices we make are beyond our control, and often even beyond our awareness.

How is free will possible?

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