How is free will possible?

[timewerx]

So-o-o > if this is philosophically correct, what does this have to do with morals and ethics? I would say that since our character can have much to do with choices we are capable of making, we need to seek God to correct and cure us to become truly unselfish in His love in our nature.

What Jesus wants are worshipers in the Spirit and the Truth.

Loving God and seeking the Truth goes hand-in-hand.

With little knowledge or ignorance, you may love God or love others wrongly, even lead others to damnation, completely unaware of it.

A very good analogy is people trying to help struggling a pupa or caterpillar get out of it coccoon. Not knowing they need the struggle to free themselves to be able to fly. They did it out of ignorance. They think they are doing the pupa a favor but is only killing it.

The Pharisees thought they are helping people by their preaching but is only causing more damage, unaware the theology they preach is false.

A lot of Christians thinks it's okay to have possess lots of money, despite the warnings that Jesus and the saints said about it. Jesus called money "unrighteous wealth". Doesn't matter if you worked hard and honestly for it. Money or profit in the world is mostly made, by marking down someone else's service and marking up sales with unjustified added effort. This is usually achieved by hiring poor, unskilled, disadvantaged workers, taking advantage of the poor and that's evil. Even if you made an honest living, the money your boss or clients gave you comes from that.

This is why Jesus taught us to be extravagantly generous to our brothers and sisters in need or poor to make up for the injustices of acquiring wealth in this world.

And a lot of Christians are willfully ignorant of this fact that supports what is taught in the Bible by Christ.

Thus, what is free will to them if they choose to have eternal life but misses it according to scriptures. You don't have free will if your beliefs and actions is going the opposite direction of what you're trying to achieve. You are simply deceived and kept in the dark by allowing the desires of the flesh to keep you from seeing the truth. We always come back to the Truth is the way to be set free. Never stop at seeking / investigating the Truth and knowledge without the bias of the desires of the flesh.

 

[loveofourlord]

the problem I find with free will and they are extreme, but two people that have head injuries, or due to their makeup at birth, one has pure rage all the time and can't control it, and becomes a abusive killer, turns out there was something wrong with the part of his brain that controls rage, and another someone that can't kill, the very concept sickens them physically and such, does the rage killer have free will to not kill, does the person whose mental makeup makes them physically sick have free will to kill?

 

[Ken-1122]

How does it being part of you imply choice?

As I said; the decision making comes from me.

My argument of determinism is part of you too that being that you are a slave to your biology, just like me and everyone else. We misinterpret desire as choice often because our egos do not like the thought that we are not in control.

That’s like saying I’m forced to do what my mind tells me to do. See how crazy that sounds? When I make decisions, my mind is involved, my biology, my arms legs, eyes, and everything else that makes up “me” is involved. Thats how free will works!

 

[holo]

There are always limits to choices; I can't run 100 mph, I can't hold my breath for an hour, I can't fly like a bird; the list goes on. Just because there are things I can't do doesn't mean I don't have free will concerning the things I can do.

Sure, but the point is you can't choose what you prefer. There can be all sorts of reasons you prefer corn flakes, but you don't choose any of those reasons.

Actually that is an argument FOR free will. When I know the right thing to do, but I choose to do wrong anyway; this is possible BECAUSE of freewill

But why? Why do you choose to sin if your will is free and you might as well have chosen to do the right thing?

 

[holo]

the problem I find with free will and they are extreme, but two people that have head injuries, or due to their makeup at birth, one has pure rage all the time and can't control it, and becomes a abusive killer, turns out there was something wrong with the part of his brain that controls rage, and another someone that can't kill, the very concept sickens them physically and such, does the rage killer have free will to not kill, does the person whose mental makeup makes them physically sick have free will to kill?

There are lots of examples of people losing all self control, for example, because of injuries to their frontal lobe. There are also reports of people going pedophile because of tumors and such. The point is, if they act or feel a certain way because of processes in the brain (healthy or otherwise), then that's true for all of us. It's not like "you" are something outside or apart from your brain. If we influence your brain chemically, electrically, electromagnetically, etc, we influence you.

 

[holo]

That’s like saying I’m forced to do what my mind tells me to do. See how crazy that sounds?

It's true though. You have lots of (often competing) desires in your mind at all times. The strongest desire wins, and it's probably not a conscious choice though it feels that way. Several studies have shown that with fancy brain scanners one can see what people choose to do before they're aware of it themselves. That doesn't disprove free will, but it shows that the decision doesn't happen in our consciousness. Our consciousness doesn't make the decision, it becomes aware of it. But we're wired in a way that makes it feel like it all happened consciously.

I guess we all tend to think that we "are" our consciousness, but that's just a tiny part of all the stuff that makes you you.

 

[Dave L]

Was God controlling John Wayne Gacy when he chose to kill all of those children and bury them under his house?

Were these all sinners? The wages of sin is death.

 

[Dave L]

Is this just your opinion? Or do you have any proof supporting this claim.

“In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” (Ephesians 1:11)

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13)

 

[Dave L]

If God controls us then we have no choice.

Not exactly. People choose what they want for a reason. The reason is beyond their control and God uses it to lead them into the direction they should go.

 

[Ken-1122]

Sure, but the point is you can't choose what you prefer. There can be all sorts of reasons you prefer corn flakes, but you don't choose any of those reasons.But why? Why do you choose to sin if your will is free and you might as well have chosen to do the right thing?

It's true though. You have lots of (often competing) desires in your mind at all times. The strongest desire wins, and it's probably not a conscious choice though it feels that way. Several studies have shown that with fancy brain scanners one can see what people choose to do before they're aware of it themselves. That doesn't disprove free will, but it shows that the decision doesn't happen in our consciousness. Our consciousness doesn't make the decision, it becomes aware of it. But we're wired in a way that makes it feel like it all happened consciously.

I guess we all tend to think that we "are" our consciousness, but that's just a tiny part of all the stuff that makes you you.

Your argument seems to be that I don't have freewill because I am forced to do whatever I want to do. (which sounds absurd to me) So consider a scenario that I DID have freewill; how would my actions be different?

 

[Ken-1122]

Were these all sinners? The wages of sin is death.

Are you asking me if the murdered children were sinners? I don't know, but it doesn't matter. You claimed we are all controlled by God; I asked you if John Gacy was being controlled by God when he killed all of those children. Again; was he?

 

[Ken-1122]

“In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:” (Ephesians 1:11)

“For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13)

Okay, I get it; you're just using your bible as proof. I don't accept what is written in the Bible as truth; but I understand you and many others do. So your arguments will only be convincing to people who believe as you do, not people like me.

 

[Dave-W]

Quantum physics disagrees.

Quantum physics has no bearing on the spirit world.

 

[durangodawood]

...People choose what they want for a reason. The reason is beyond their control....

If you dont have some control, then the choice is not truly yours.

 

[RDKirk]

I guess this belongs in the philosophy forum, but that's closed. But it's relevant to ethics because the idea of free will is a prerequisite for even talking about ethical and moral issues.

Anyway, I'm wondering how a truly free will can even be possible? The reason I doubt it is because absolutely everything, even the tiniest signal between two synapses in your brain, happens for a reason. The only way to alter the outcome of something is to alter the conditions. In other words, if you rewind time for, say, 10 minutes, without changing anything, the exact same thing would happen a million times in a row, whether it's a coin toss or a thought. At what point, and how, does this proposed free will enter the equation?

Note: don't confuse making choices with having free will. We obviously make choices all the time. The question is if the choice could in fact really have been different, given all the things that lead up to that choice. As far as I can tell, the only way for your brain to have made a different choice, is if your brain was different to begin with.

There are many secular philosophers who are on the spectrum of Determinism and deny free will to some extent. I think most philosophers are on that spectrum.

It seems like Christians (and not all of them) are the only people claiming absolute free will.

 

[RDKirk]

So we want to recognize what philosophers are saying when they describe libertarian free will. It is that despite certain biological, psychological and other limits, as well as external limits, given multiple courses of action I am free to use my judgement to determine which one will achieve my goals.

Determinists deny that claim as do compatiblists. The Bible assumes it every time it tells you to gain wisdom or choice a right or wise action. It assumes free will when it tells people to eschew evil acts. It assumes free will when it tells you to study. Judgement assumes your actions are based on your free will not determinism.

I would disagree. Scripture denies free will when it tells us that every person is a slave that must obey a master, and that our only choice is in which master we will be enslaved to. Only those enslaved to Christ have a choice in eschewing evil acts; the man enslaved to sin has no choice but to sin, and is in fact being obedient to his own master in sinning.

 

[Tom 1]

I guess this belongs in the philosophy forum, but that's closed. But it's relevant to ethics because the idea of free will is a prerequisite for even talking about ethical and moral issues.

Anyway, I'm wondering how a truly free will can even be possible? The reason I doubt it is because absolutely everything, even the tiniest signal between two synapses in your brain, happens for a reason. The only way to alter the outcome of something is to alter the conditions. In other words, if you rewind time for, say, 10 minutes, without changing anything, the exact same thing would happen a million times in a row, whether it's a coin toss or a thought. At what point, and how, does this proposed free will enter the equation?

Note: don't confuse making choices with having free will. We obviously make choices all the time. The question is if the choice could in fact really have been different, given all the things that lead up to that choice. As far as I can tell, the only way for your brain to have made a different choice, is if your brain was different to begin with.

Free will isn't just an abstract thing we can exercise regardless of influence, but we do have the ability to choose and also form to some extent our influences. We can learn, and choose to some degree what we experience, and thereby have our choices influenced by what we choose to learn and experience. Malcolm X summed it up pretty neatly, I can't find the exact quote but paraphrased the basic idea is 'if you change your philosophy, you change the way that you think. If you change the way that you think, you change the way that you act.' That is certainly true in my experience.

God intended us to live in community, in a godly community with a godly focus, all directed towards good outcomes - i.e. outcomes that are beneficial and promote life, close relationships, a functioning community etc. Within a community like that our limited free will can operate within a useful, beneficial structure and, over time and with experience, we can explore the limits of that in a useful way, as in Hebrews 5:14, Titus 3:8, Romans 10:5, Proverbs 22:17-18 - this leads to a certain amount of freedom in how we act, in the sense of a self-imposed framework for action, as in 1 Peter 2:16. Problem is most of us don't live in that sort of community, so we have to work harder to build the right mental environment through discipline, application etc, in order for our choices to become better over time, as in 1 Peter 1:13, 2 Pet 2:5-9. That's how I see it.

 

[Dave L]

If you dont have some control, then the choice is not truly yours.

You choose based on what you want most. What you want by nature is beyond your control, and under God's control.

 

[Dave L]

Okay, I get it; you're just using your bible as proof. I don't accept what is written in the Bible as truth; but I understand you and many others do. So your arguments will only be convincing to people who believe as you do, not people like me.

How can anything not true be proof?

 

[Dave L]

Are you asking me if the murdered children were sinners? I don't know, but it doesn't matter. You claimed we are all controlled by God; I asked you if John Gacy was being controlled by God when he killed all of those children. Again; was he?

We are a corrupt race of sinners. Babies who never consciously sin die because the wages of sin is death.