Was the original Catholic Church created by power hungry zealots?

Root of Jesse · Oct 31, 2018

mark kennedy said:
Thats not what it says, it says the prayers of the 'holy ones' often translated saints. Job os asked by one of his friends, to which of the saints (lit. holy ones) will you call for help (Job 5:1). Job did something in this discussion that neither of his friends did, he prayed. The entire 6th chapter Job is talking to and about his friends. Then in the seventh chapter he starts direction his ststements not to the saints but to God. "Remember Oh God my life is but breath" (Job 7:7).

The practice of apoealing to the venerated departed goes back a long way. The pagan version of holloween claimed on that night the veil between the worlds was thinner. Job doesn't cry out to one of the saints or an ancestor, he makes his appeal to God himself. Thats the Biblical pattern, invoking the spirits of the departed isn't an Old Testament or New Testament practice. Saul did and sure enough Samuel shows up, but he had to go to a witch to do it.

Grace and peace,
Mark

The Saints are not departed, though. They are alive in heaven, which is proven by Revelation. There was no one but God to pray to in the OT. Saints came after Christ.

Root of Jesse · Oct 31, 2018

Maria Billingsley said:
This is your earthly mother and earthly father. It is part of the Mosaic law.

It's not that narrow. We honor our Church Fathers and Mother(s) too.

Root of Jesse · Oct 31, 2018

eleos1954 said:
Are there any verses where Jesus prayed to anyone other than God the Father?

No, because the saints in heaven came after Christ opened the gates of heaven.

eleos1954 · Oct 31, 2018

Root of Jesse said:
No, because the saints in heaven came after Christ opened the gates of heaven.

and when was that (gates of heaven opened)

Maria Billingsley · Oct 31, 2018

Root of Jesse said:
It's not that narrow. We honor our Church Fathers and Mother(s) too.

Yes-I agree, this is a different kind on honor. I believe we should echo the scriptures.
Blessings

Romans 12:10
Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Outdo yourselves in honoring one another.

mark kennedy · Oct 31, 2018

Root of Jesse said:
The Saints are not departed, though. They are alive in heaven, which is proven by Revelation. There was no one but God to pray to in the OT. Saints came after Christ.

Revelations is simply using the plural form of holy, those prayers are collective. Anyone sanctified is a saint in that sense, which ultimately is everyone who is saved. We know from the opening of the fifth seal what those seals consist of, 'how long before you avenge our blood', not please help Johnny with his term paper.

redleghunter · Oct 31, 2018

truefiction1 said:
Good, to all of this. I've witnesses things personally that give sufficient evidence that in this "intermediate" state you refer to, intercessory prayers are both granted, heard, and answered by the power of God. The wholistic experience of the Orthodox throughout the Church age bears witness to the power of intercessory prayers by departed saints. If this weren't so, then we ourselves would likely not ascribe to this practice of asking of prayers from them.

I surely believe our departed brethren are in bliss in the Presence of Christ Jesus and that as such are part of The Body of Christ His Church. We also those in Christ here on Earth have the same access to the Heavenly and Throne of Grace.

Hebrews 4:16

Ephesians 3:12

Hebrews 10:19

And of course 1 Timothy 2:5

If we who are in Christ have such access to our Savior and Lord directly and boldly, then when in Christian history did this bold and direct access become supplemented with intercession of the venerated departed saints?

Not David · Oct 31, 2018

redleghunter said:
Even Cardinal Newman admits to religious syncretism:

"We are told in various ways by Eusebius [Note 16], that Constantine, in order to recommend the new religion to the heathen, transferred into it the outward ornaments to which they had been accustomed in their own. It is not necessary to go into a subject which the diligence of Protestant writers has made familiar to most of us. The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison [Note 17], are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church. {374}

Greeks dedicate images to devils, and call them gods; but we to True God Incarnate, and to God's servants and friends, who drive away the troops of devils." [Note 18] Again, "As the holy Fathers overthrew the temples and shrines of the devils, and raised in their places shrines in the {377} names of Saints and we worship them, so also they overthrew the images of the devils, and in their stead raised images of Christ, and God's Mother, and the Saints. And under the Old Covenant, Israel neither raised temples in the name of men, nor was memory of man made a festival; for, as yet, man's nature was under a curse, and death was condemnation, and therefore was lamented, and a corpse was reckoned unclean and he who touched it; but now that the Godhead has been combined with our nature, as some life-giving and saving medicine, our nature has been glorified and is trans-elemented into incorruption. Wherefore the death of Saints is made a feast, and temples are raised to them, and Images are painted ... (John Henry Newman [made a cardinal by Pope Leo III in 1879]; Application of the Third Note of a True Development—Assimilative Power, Chapter 8; Newman Reader - Development of Christian Doctrine - Chapter 8)

I'm surprised how you keep repeating that argument when it has been mentioned that Catholics are not the only ones that incorporate non-Christian stuff in their worship. In none of those cases, it is dogma.

Not David · Oct 31, 2018

redleghunter said:
In what manner? You don't believe the actual New Testament was written in the time of the Apostles?

Is there a table of contents in the Original documents?

Not David · Oct 31, 2018

redleghunter said:
It's amazing how not too long after the last Apostle the church incorporated beliefs unknown to the NT church.

Do you have any records of that stuff you said? And if that was the case it is still earlier than 1500 years.

redleghunter · Oct 31, 2018

David Cabrera said:
Is there a table of contents in the Original documents?

Should the curator of the Louvre take credit for the Mona Lisa?

Not David · Oct 31, 2018

eleos1954 said:
That's one belief ... I don't subscribe to it. Denotes immortality and there is only one immortal and that is God Himself.

1 Timothy 6:16

He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light. No one has ever seen Him, nor can anyone see Him. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

"I am the Resurrection and the Life, however believes in me even if dead will live"

redleghunter · Oct 31, 2018

David Cabrera said:
Do you have any records of that stuff you said? And if that was the case it is still earlier than 1500 years.

Sure. There are no Catholic distinctives found in Holy Scriptures.

Not David · Oct 31, 2018

redleghunter said:
Should the curator of the Louvre take credit for the Mona Lisa?

Lol, what does it has to do with anything.
How do you know the Scripture you have is the one you are supposed to have?

redleghunter · Oct 31, 2018

David Cabrera said:
Lol, what does it has to do with anything.
How do you know the Scripture you have is the one you are supposed to have?

How did people determine John the Baptist and Christ were of God? Certainly not the standing Jewish Magisterium.

Not David · Oct 31, 2018

redleghunter said:
Sure. There are no Catholic distinctives found in Holy Scriptures.

Funny, I do not find Protestantism in the Scriptures.

Not David · Oct 31, 2018

redleghunter said:
How did people determine John the Baptist and Christ were of God? Certainly not the standing Jewish Magisterium.

Because God himself was there?

The Barbarian · Oct 31, 2018

HTacianas said:
There is nothing in the bible regarding prayers to saints. But it is one of the oldest traditions of Christianity. All of the original churches pray for the intercession of the saints, not only the Roman Church.

Anyone who follows the basic confession of faith first put forward in the Apostle's Creed around 390 AD, acknowledges the Communion of Saints. I don't know of any Christian denomination that denies it.

Cis.jd · Oct 31, 2018

redleghunter said:
Again not evident from the teachings and practices of the NT. Most were still Jews and nowhere you can find Jews in the Old Testament praying to Moses to intercede after he died.

The reason why Jews did not pray to Moses for intercession (although, it isn't sure that they didn't, based on the trasfiguration) is maybe because they didn't believe he went to heaven. With Elijah though, it's a different story, because they Bible says he was taken to Heaven. Invoking Elijah was common and is still done today.

Why Is Elijah the Prophet Invited to the Seder?

Cis.jd · Oct 31, 2018

eleos1954 said:
Are there any verses where Jesus prayed to anyone other than God the Father?

Why did Jesus make a story in where this rich man was calling Abraham (who has been dead for hundreds of years) for help?
(Luke 16:19-31).

Was the original Catholic Church created by power hungry zealots?

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

Admiral of the Fleet/First Sea Lord

God is Love

Well-Known Member

Natura non facit saltum

Thank You Jesus!

I'm back!

I'm back!

I'm back!

Thank You Jesus!

I'm back!

Thank You Jesus!

I'm back!

Thank You Jesus!

I'm back!

I'm back!

Crabby Old White Guy

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads