Absolute Predestination

Dave L said:

But God can lead you into the devil's temptation.

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James 1:14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

God doesn't lead us into temptation. Rather, it is our own lust.

Dave L said:

That's why we pray it. Those who do not are fed to the devil.
“Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.” (1 Timothy 1:20)

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So if you don't pray that prayer today or tomorrow, God will feed you to the devil, correct?

Dave L said:

Only God knows.

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It sounds like you know.

Dave L said:

If God removes his restrains on any, they are nothing more than cannibals. It was a judgement he used at times.

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So, when a man is tempted by his own lusts, this is a judgement of God, correct?

Dave L said:

Let scripture settle it.

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But I don't find that in the Bible.

[QUOTE="DeaconDean, post: 73325644, member: 118307"



Funny, scripture says we don't know what to pray for:

""Likewise the spirit also helpeth our infirmities; for we know not what we should pray for as we ought." -Rom. 8:26

Not to mention that prior to regeneration, you want us to believe that an unsaved person knows exactly what to pray for and when?

Haha, your funny.

God Bless

Till all are one.[/QUOTE]Well, that's what I mean. Since we don't know how to pray as we ought, the Holy Spirit joins in, just like is says in the Bible, especially in your passage reference above. Yours is the very Scripture I had in mind when I wrote about the Holy Spirit's help in prayer.

But if we don't pray, will the Holy Spirit come to help us by His grace to pray as we ought? Does our Lord teach us not to pray, because the Holy Spirit automatically does this for us? Doesn't the Lord teach us to be asking, knocking, seeking? And that if we do ask, knock, and seek, the Father will by no means fail to give us the Holy Spirit? (Luke 11:9-13)

Believers "keep" (Greek word "tereo" - watch over, guard, keep intact) His commandments as the demonstrative evidence of having come to know Him and not as the meritorious means of receiving eternal life.

In 1 John 2:3, we read - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence) if we keep (watch over, guard, keep intact) His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

*Salvation is not obtained by sinless, perfect obedience to all of God's commandments. None of us have perfectly obeyed all of God's commandments - (Ecclesiastes 7:20; Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8-10). Salvation is obtained through faith in Christ and is not based on the merits of our performance/works. (Romans 3:22-28; 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9)

bcbsr said:

Sounds contradictory and double talk to me. If God is in control of every particular thing, as Calvinists would have it, then we are but puppets.

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Well, no.

bcbsr said:

Choice is no choice if there is only one option.

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Not at all. Compatabilist free will says that I make the choice that I want to make, even if that choice has been predestined.

bcbsr said:

What God ordained was for people to have free will, contrary to Calvinism, and that resolves the problem of evil.

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You obviously don't understand the different definitions of free will.

Albion said:

It is not implied by that doctrine that every last action and thought we do or have has been scripted in advance by God, just that that matter of the individual's salvation--or not--has been settled.

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The doctrine of "providence" is quite commonly understood to include predestination of everything (see Matthew 10:29-30)

• "We believe that this good God, after creating all things, did not abandon them to chance or fortune but leads and governs them according to his holy will, in such a way that nothing happens in this world without God’s orderly arrangement" (Belgic Confession, 1561)
• "God’s works of providence are his most holy, wise, and powerful preserving and governing all his creatures and all their actions" (Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, 1871).
• "Predestination ... taken in its widest meaning, is every Divine decree by which God, owing to His infallible prescience of the future, has appointed and ordained from eternity all events occurring in time... Taken in this general sense, predestination clearly coincides with Divine Providence" (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1911)
• "We must say, however, that all things are subject to divine providence, not only in general, but even in their own individual selves" (Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, 1.22.2)

Radagast said:

The doctrine of "providence" is quite commonly understood to include predestination of everything (see Matthew 10:29-30)

• "We believe that this good God, after creating all things, did not abandon them to chance or fortune but leads and governs them according to his holy will, in such a way that nothing happens in this world without God’s orderly arrangement" (Belgic Confession, 1561)
• "God’s works of providence are his most holy, wise, and powerful preserving and governing all his creatures and all their actions" (Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, 1871).
• "Predestination ... taken in its widest meaning, is every Divine decree by which God, owing to His infallible prescience of the future, has appointed and ordained from eternity all events occurring in time... Taken in this general sense, predestination clearly coincides with Divine Providence" (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1911)
• "We must say, however, that all things are subject to divine providence, not only in general, but even in their own individual selves" (Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, 1.22.2)

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That's called meticulous providence. There's a big problem with it, though: It makes God the author of evil on one hand, or denies the existence of evil on the other hand.

James Murphy said:

That's called meticulous providence. There's a big problem with it, though: It makes God the author of evil on one hand

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It's historic Christian orthodoxy (both Catholic and Protestant). And, no.

• "... Yet God is not the author of, and cannot be charged with, the sin that occurs. For God’s power and goodness are so great and incomprehensible that God arranges and does his works very well and justly even when the devils and the wicked act unjustly." (Belgic Confession, 1561)

Dave L said:

How often do you read your bible?

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Will it magically appear if I read my Bible 20x a day?

Dave L said:

It helps to know what scripture says about a given subject.

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Hey, I'm up to be shown where it is.