Christian Perfectionism: Proofs Unsuccessful

justbyfaith said:

Actually, the Nazarene Church is very much against speaking in tongues for the most part.

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But Pentecostals were Charismatic which is totally alien to Anglicanism and Wesley never expressed any Apologetics for them, unlike the majority of Christian denominations.

mark kennedy said:

The form of perfectionism I'm most familiar with, if it's properly called that is the Wesleyan entire sanctification doctrine. John Wesley believed that if a person could do everything from a motive of love (agape) such a person could be sinless.

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No, he said you can avoid committing sins. But not *all* sins:


You are twisting Methodist theology into something more like Once Saved Always Saved, which is a doctrine viewed in a very negative light by Methodists.

Fascinated With God said:

I edited the post. It is probably because speaking in tongues is totally alien to Methodism and Anglicanism, so while talking about theology I wouldn't think to bring it up. And I have never met an English speaking Pentecostal before I moved to NY.

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Well I will grant you that I never heard of Methodists or Anglicans speaking in tongues - but Pentecostals do it all the time.

BobRyan said:

Well I will grant you that I never heard of Methodists or Anglicans speaking in tongues - but Pentecostals do it all the time.

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Which exemplifies my point that these supposedly "Wesleyan" Holiness movements that were mostly Pentecostal or non-denominational used Wesley's statements for their own purposes and have no theological descent from the Wesley brothers themselves.

Tree of Life said:

The Biblical "proofs" put forward in favor of Christian perfectionism are unsuccessful. Christian perfectionism is a doctrine taught by Pelagians, Semi-pelagians, Roman Catholics, some Arminians, some Wesleyans, and some others. It is the idea that a redeemed person can, in this life, attain to a state of sinless perfection wherein they no longer sin. It's a false and unbiblical teaching that diminishes the true requirements of God's Law and misunderstands the profundity of the sinful human heart. Here are the "proofs" often put forth in support of perfectionism and a few brief words as to why they are unsuccessful.

1. The Bible commands believers to be holy and perfect. Scriptures like Matthew 5:48, James 1:4, and 1 Peter 1:16 (among others) call believers to a life of perfect holiness. Because believers are called to perfection, it is supposed that it is indeed possible and perhaps necessary for believers to reach perfection. The problem with this is that the Scriptural demands for holiness and perfection are not limited to believers. All people - even the unregenerate - are called to be holy and perfect. The Law of God demands holiness from all and it has never been revoked. If the command implies that the one to whom it comes is able to fulfill the command, then we should expect that the unregenerate are also able to be perfect and holy.
   
   
2. Believers are often called "holy" and "perfect" in Scripture. Consider 1 Corinthians 2:6, Ephesians 5:27, Philippians 4:13 and others. If believers are called holy and perfect, it must mean that they are without sin and therefore believers can be without sin. The problem with this, though, is that being called "holy" does not necessarily mean that a person is without sin. Someone may be "holy" in an objective or positional sense but not holy in an existential, moral sense. The Old Testament priests were, for example, holy - set apart for service to God. But this did not mean that they were morally perfect or existentially holy. Likewise, the children of believers are called "holy" in 1 Corinthians 7, but this does not mean that they are without sin.
   
   
3. There are Biblical examples of people who lived perfect lives. Consider Noah, Job, Asa (Genesis 6:9, Job 1:1, 1 Kings 15:14). The problem with this is that the holy men in Scripture are obviously not sinless, these people included. Noah, Moses, Job, Abraham, and all the faithful men of Scripture are presented as very conflicted individuals who have all kinds of faults and unbelief.
   
   
4. John says that those born of God do not sin. 1 John 3:6-9, 1 John 5:18. The problem here though is that John is not saying that a believer cannot or does not commit a sinful act. John is saying that a believer cannot continue in habitual sin as a way of life. John makes it clear elsewhere that believers still have sin in their lives (1 John 1:8-10). Furthermore, the sinless perfectionist cannot use John's words to prove their point because they would end up proving too much. The sinless perfectionist wants to say that sinless perfection is possible. But John would seem to be saying that believers are indeed sinlessly perfect if we take John's words as the sinless perfectionists want us to take them.

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Hi,

I believe you have misrepresented the Wesleyan position. The traditional Wesleyan formulation of Christian Perfection does not define Christian perfection as the attainment of "...a state of sinless perfection wherein they no longer sin." For example, they allow for sin arising from ignorance, and also what could be been understood as sin through “infirmity” (Rom. 6:19; 8:26).

BobRyan said:

So then in your mind you are slave to sin -- slave to sinning .. .because you have a sinful nature and nothing God has provided in the Gospel frees you from that slavery??

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Well, yes and no.

Sin is just like our DNA. It is a part of us that we will have to contend with all our lives.

Even scriptures tells us that we'll only be "perfect" when we are made just like Him.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." -1 Jn. 3:2 (KJV)

Paul admits that he still struggled with sin in his great passage in Rom. 7.

And whoever the writer of Hebrews was, told us that there are some sin(s) that still trouble us and we could easily slip up and commit:

"let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us," -Heb. 12:1 (KJV)

For some, like my wife, road rage is her sin "which doth so easily beset" her.

I am not saying we shouldn't sin at all. What I am saying is that since the Christ event in our lives, has that one single event so cleaned us, so sanctified us, that we cannot sin anymore? Are we so led by the Holy Spirit that we cannot err? Has the Christ event in our lives so changed us as to "erase" the sin nature we were born with? Since the Christ event in our lives, has any one of us walked perfectly and not sinned?

No?

Neither could Peter, nor Paul.

Before the Christ event in our lives, yes, we were in bondage to sin, slaves of it. But..

"Ye shall know the truth and the truth will set you free".

We sin because we are sinners by nature.

"In Psalm 51:5 David said, “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” He wasn’t just talking about himself there. From the moment of conception we all had a sin nature and sinful behavior would become one of the defining characteristics of our life. The phrase “sin nature” means it’s in our nature to sin, and that will be the case until we die or are raptured.

That means even after we’ve been saved and have the seal of the Holy Spirit we can’t completely stop sinning because being saved does not remove our sin nature. Christians who think they no longer sin don’t understand how pervasive our sin nature really is. They believe sin is just a type of behavior, when actually it’s a built in flaw in the system that controls way we think and feel. Therefore, it’s not what we do that makes us sinners, it’s who we are that makes us sinners."

Source

The only time when we (Christians) will not sin, that our "sin nature" will be completely eradicated, purged from us, is the day we see our Lord and are made "just like Him".

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean said:

The only time when we (Christians) will not sin, that our "sin nature" will be completely eradicated, purged from us, is the day we see our Lord and are made "just like Him".

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Where does the Bible say or imply "just like" Christ or God? Once we eat of the Tree of Life humans will "become like one of us" -Gen. 3:22. Us being the angels. So we will bodily resurrect and have our sin nature taken away, but the angels still have limited comprehension, even if superhuman.

Tree of Life said:

By the power of the Holy Spirit we can begin to love our enemies. But we can never do so perfectly in this life because of the sin that accompanies all our thoughts and actions.

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So then in your mind you are slave to sin -- slave to sinning .. .because you have a sinful nature and nothing God has provided in the Gospel frees you from that slavery??

DeaconDean said:

Well, yes and no.
Sin is just like our DNA. It is a part of us that we will have to contend with all our lives.

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Sin -- or "sinful nature"??
Does a child molester "have" to molest children all his life - even after being saved?

DeaconDean said:

Even scriptures tells us that we'll only be "perfect" when we are made just like Him.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." -1 Jn. 3:2 (KJV)

Paul admits that he still struggled with sin in his great passage in Rom. 7.

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Struggles as in "gets victory over" or "struggles" as in fails?

If you define struggle to be "fail" then the child molester is stuck with doing that

DeaconDean said:

And whoever the writer of Hebrews was, told us that there are some sin(s) that still trouble us and we could easily slip up and commit:

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Hebrews does say that we are allowing some sins to easily beset us - but "easily" and "lay aside" - means that they are not a doom sentence, but a command to give it up instead of allowing it to easily beset.

"let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us," -Heb. 12:1 (KJV)

I am not saying we shouldn't sin at all. What I am saying is that since the Christ event in our lives, has that one single event so cleaned us, so sanctified us, that we cannot sin anymore?

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"cannot sin" is not the question
"will not sin" -- 1 Cor 10 "no temptation but such as common to man and God is faithful who will not ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are able"

"Will" as in using our "will" enabled by the Holy Spirit to withstand in the evil day as Ephesians 6 points out.

Are we so led by the Holy Spirit that we cannot err? Has the Christ event in our lives so changed us as to "erase" the sin nature we were born with?

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Both sides would argue that we still have a sin nature - the sinful nature.

We sin because we are sinners by nature.

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also true of the child molester

But Romans 6 declares freedom from slavery to sin - slavery to our sinful nature. We will have that sinful nature but we are empowered to resist it.

That means even after we’ve been saved and have the seal of the Holy Spirit we can’t completely stop sinning because being saved does not remove our sin nature.

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That is a false conclusion--- we have a sinful nature still - but are not enslaved to obeying it's "bent" to sin its desire to be at war with the Law of God - rather we are freed from that slavery --- see Romans 6.

Christians who think they no longer sin don’t understand how pervasive our sin nature really is.

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1. It is not a question of claiming that you no longer sin.
2. Sinful nature is always there - but no longer required to obey it

DeaconDean said:

The only time when we (Christians) will not sin, that our "sin nature" will be completely eradicated, purged from us, is the day we see our Lord and are made "just like Him".

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You have conflated two entirely different things.
1. The sinful nature
2. The act if sinning.

Adam had no sinful nature - and yet sinned.
We have sinful natures - and are commanded not to sin.

We are never commanded "not to have a sinful nature". Just not to sin -- 1 John 2:1

And Romans 6 points out that our slaver to sinning ends the moment we are saved.

Romans 8:4-11 says only wicked are in a condition where not only do they not choose subjection to the Law of God - but in fact they "can not" subject themselves to obedience to God.

To the Original Poster (@Tree of Life), and to those who are opposed to the doctrine of entire sanctification: I wonder if you could give explanation of the following verses together:

1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6.

Jude 1:24 and 2 Peter 1:10-11 are also of interest to me as to what your understanding might be.

Since I am kjv-superior in my understanding, could you please give your understanding of them as they are rendered by the kjv?

1 John 3:7, Little children, let no man decieve you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 3:3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

1 John 2:6, He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Jude 1:24, Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.

2 Peter 1:10-11, Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall; For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

DeaconDean said:

Even scriptures tells us that we'll only be "perfect" when we are made just like Him.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." -1 Jn. 3:2 (KJV)

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You failed to read on to the next verse:

1 John 3:3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Fascinated With God said:

Where does the Bible say or imply "just like" Christ or God? Once we eat of the Tree of Life humans will "become like one of us" -Gen. 3:22. Us being the angels. So we will bodily resurrect and have our sin nature taken away, but the angels still have limited comprehension, even if superhuman.

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"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." -1 Jn. 3:2 (KJV)

God Bless

Till all are one.

BobRyan said:

You have conflated two entirely different things.
1. The sinful nature
2. The act if sinning.

Adam had no sinful nature - and yet sinned.
We have sinful natures - and are commanded not to sin.

We are never commanded "not to have a sinful nature". Just not to sin -- 1 John 2:1

And Romans 6 points out that our slaver to sinning ends the moment we are saved.

Romans 8:4-11 says only wicked are in a condition where not only do they not choose subjection to the Law of God - but in fact they "can not" subject themselves to obedience to God.

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Not once in this thread have I argued against anything your saying.

What I have said, time and time again, is that the only time we (Christians) will ever truly be "sin free", "perfect" is when Christ returns, and we are made "just like" Him.

God Bless

Till all are one.

justbyfaith said:

You failed to read on to the next verse:

1 John 3:3, And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

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Here again, have you achieved "purity"?

No?

God Bless

Till all are one.

DeaconDean said:

Here again, have you achieved "purity"?

No?

God Bless

Till all are one.

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I will say that I have the hope in Him that is spoken of there; but I would be crossing the line to state the logical conclusion of the matter.

Fascinated With God said:

I edited the post. It is probably because speaking in tongues is totally alien to Methodism....

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HI,

Why do you say this? Wesleyan Methodism affirms the spiritual gift of what it calls known tongues. Are you referring to unknown tongues (sometimes referred to as angelic or heavenly language)?

Fascinated With God said:

There is only one Methodist Church. We do not have sub-denominations like Lutherans, Baptists, and Pentecostals.

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I don't believe that is accurate.

AACJ said:

HI,

Why do you say this? Wesleyan Methodism affirms the spiritual gift of what it calls known tongues. Are you referring to unknown tongues (sometimes referred to as angelic or heavenly language)?

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Never heard of either.

AACJ said:

I don't believe that is accurate.

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Well, the UMC has no denominational relationship with any of these other groups.