The historical problem of "Judaization": When is the line drawn?

TheLostCoin · Aug 13, 2018

So, as we know, several times in the history of the Church and Christianity in general, there have been accusations of impiously adopting Mosaic practices in the Church's life - the most famous example is the Roman Church and the Eastern Churches accusing each other of Judaizing the Eucharist, with Thomas Aquinas believing that the Eastern Churches adopted Leaven Bread due to the Jews using Leavened Bread throughout the year, while the Eastern Churches accuse the Roman Church of using unleavened bread because the Jews used unleavened bread during the Passover. Another one is the famous story of the Easter controversy, with certain Churches in Asia following the Jewish calendar for Passover.

However, my question is, when do the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and Roman Catholics draw the lines of when Judaization is unacceptable?

Even though it is a Christian belief that these disciplinary practices "of the Law" were separate from the Covenant and specifically connected to the Nation of Israel, while the Church has allowed the Covenant to expand to include non-Jews, while those who reject Christ are outside the Covenant, nevertheless it seems that the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, and the Oriental Orthodox Church have in different degrees adopted certain Jewish practices, which are based on the Torah.

For example, in Eastern Orthodoxy, there is clearly a Jewish inheritance of the treatment of women and men of "ritual uncleanliness" (as both men and women naturally do unclean things) as well as the period of time to when the soul departs. More than that, eating blood-meat is unacceptable for the Orthodox as well, which seems to have its origins in the Jewish idea that the blood is where the soul is contained (Abel's blood crying out to the Lord, for example), and even in discipline, the growing of hair and not-cutting it for monastics seems to have connections to the Nazarite vow.

In Roman Catholicism, these practices are noticeably absent - however, there are some unique Roman Catholic practices which seem to be Jewish in origin - for example, the monastic tonsure of the West seems to be connected to Judaism, with Elisha being bald, and not to mention the usage of the Zucchetto (whose connection to Judaism is debated). The Syriac Orthodox also use the Zucchetto.

However, some Oriental Orthodox go above and beyond this - mainly, the Ethiopian Orthodox, who follow Jewish Kosher law, and how they remove their shoes from their feet in connection to Moses and the burning bush during liturgy, as well as requiring circumcision for men. The Ethiopians also recognize the Saturday Sabbath (while seeing the Sunday as the New Sabbath, they still hold to the rule of relaxing on the Sabbath on Saturday).

So, it seems that in history, different cultures and the churches therein have adopted different praxis as it regards to what Jewish ideas are acceptable and what aren't in terms of the disciplinary works of the law. However, in light of all these variances, what made the Churches in Asia who adopted the Jewish Pasch unacceptable (considering it was before Nicaea)? Or what made the use of unleavened bread unacceptable? What made the controversies of the Judaizers during the time of Saint Paul, and the following centuries, unacceptable?

I'm unsure, considering that all the churches which have a historical connection to the Ancient Church, how these lines were drawn even in the Ancient Church, and that's the question I'm asking.

Thanks.

Dicran · Aug 13, 2018

Hello Livenotonevil ,Interesting your post , people as far back as we can reach have looked to The One God .

The Hebrew kept the best records and The Christ did walk in what we call the Holy Land ```
Yes many things came for the Hebrew ~ The rounded area over the alter represented the Tent ,several other things . The Bread is Totally Christian , yeast or no and is Christs instruction .
The holy practice of the Hebrew is Now done by no one anywhere today , that I know of .

SeekingServant · Aug 13, 2018

following...

TheLostCoin · Aug 13, 2018

Dicran said:
Hello Livenotonevil ,Interesting your post , people as far back as we can reach have looked to The One God .

The Hebrew kept the best records and The Christ did walk in what we call the Holy Land ```
Yes many things came for the Hebrew ~ The rounded area over the alter represented the Tent ,several other things . The Bread is Totally Christian , yeast or no and is Christs instruction .
The holy practice of the Hebrew is Now done by no one anywhere today , that I know of .

In the Eastern Orthodox communion, the usage of unleavened bread seems more scandalous, in contrast to the Oriental Orthodox communion, where the unleavened bread is used by the Armenians. The Eastern Orthodox Church has a Western Rite, where a modified Anglican and Tridentine Mass is used, and even there leavened bread is mandated.

I don't know if there is anything theologically wrong with it, but if the Eastern Orthodox can schism over the way the Sign of the Cross is made (Old Believers schism) and a calendar (Genuine Orthodox schism), good luck trying to maintain unity with unleavened bread.

buzuxi02 · Aug 13, 2018

Judaizing is introducing or requiring gentile Christians to adopt jewish holidays and rituals. For example in the early 1st century church many gentiles were asked to be circumcised before baptized because there was a belief that you were converting into a jewish sect. It is the conscience of the Church itself that determines what practises are neccesary and what are not.

dzheremi · Aug 13, 2018

LivenotoneviL said:
The Syriac Orthodox also use the Zucchetto.

Hmm. Reading it over at wiki and comparing that with what is found over at Syriac Orthodox Resources about the phiro, it seems that the phiro is much less varied -- the vast majority of those you'll find will be black, as that is the color which is worn by priests (while bishops and patriarchs may use red), and being constructed and decorated slightly differently.

It is interesting to read at S.O.R. that this was inherited from the days of the Ottomans, where it was required by the authorities to mark Syriac Orthodox priests in particular. I'm not sure how it could be taken as an example of Judaization, then, as I doubt the Muslim Ottomans cared at all or even recognized Jesus' Jewish heritage. (Remember, to Muslims Jesus is a Muslim.)

However, some Oriental Orthodox go above and beyond this - mainly, the Ethiopian Orthodox, who follow Jewish Kosher law

The Ethiopians don't keep kosher -- just closer it as a group than any other Christians. They won't eat pork, true, but there are plenty of Ethiopian dishes that mix milk and meat, which is a definite problem with regard to Jewish dietary law. Niter Kibbeh (Ethiopian ghee) is clarified butter, and while there is a version that uses olive oil instead (can't remember what it's called right now, but it's obviously what is then used in fasting dishes), the regular stuff goes into the stews into which various types of meat are placed to make doro wat (chicken), sega wat (beef), etc. (Which are all delicious, by the way, if you ever get the chance to try them.)

and how they remove their shoes from their feet in connection to Moses and the burning bush during liturgy, as well as requiring circumcision for men.

Yes to the former (in common with the Copts), no to the latter. In truth, circumcision was not practiced by any OO before about the 9th century, IIRC (it is recorded in the History of the Patriarchs of Alexandria as being an innovation, most likely borrowed in imitation of the Muslims rather than the Jews, though that could have been written with regard to the Egyptians and not the Ethiopians, since at the time the two were administered together; I don't know anything more specific regarding the Ethiopian justification for it in particular), and as far as I can tell from having asked about it, it is not a law, but a custom associated with the 'old country'. (And at that level I'd imagine it to be no different than, say, the segregation of the sexes in worship, which is far less controversially kept to by OO, and is something that EO here have told me their church also used to do, but is today only found in monastic settings.)

This other stuff regarding leavened vs. unleavened bread came up later for the EO and RC in particular, as that was a big and obvious difference between the two, whereas from what I understand with regard to the Armenians, their practice of using unleavened dates back to before Chalcedon (I wish I could find the reference now, but it was a long title in Armenian, which I don't speak, so I've since forgotten it; it was a kind of compendium with quotes dating back to the 4th century regarding various Church matters), and hence didn't become a problem for them in particular until after that, when the Armenians could suddenly point to it as something which likewise distinguished them from the Byzantines. (By the late 6th century we have Armenian Catholicoi refusing overtures to unite with the Byzantine Church by saying that they will not cross the river to eat leavened bread with the Greeks...ooof...such attitude these people have!)

In that case it is more definitely not connected to anything Judaic, however, as the Armenian rationale for this is that in their tradition leaven represents sin, and hence since Christ had no sin, their Eucharist is unleavened. (Oddly enough, in the modern Coptic Orthodox Church I've heard the same understanding voiced, at least by fellow laypeople, for our symbolic meaning as to why we used leavened bread -- Christ being the One Who took upon Himself the sins of the world. So there ya go. It can go either way, I suppose.)

Barney2.0 · Aug 13, 2018

The Church doesn’t adopt the laws of the Old Testament, it’s not Judaization to have some Jewish practices or a Jewish cultural background in the Church. After all we must remember the Orthodox Church is of Jewish origins and was founded by Jews.

com7fy8 · Aug 13, 2018

LivenotoneviL said:
accuse the Roman Church of using unleavened bread because the Jews used unleavened bread during the Passover

As a non-Catholic, I'll offer my take, if I may >

For one thing, I would not assume that all Eastern Orthodox people would bring themselves down to making such an accusation.

And my personal thing is that it depends on how each person understands bread being unleavened > we need to eat the bread of life, meaning the spiritual food which is not leavened with "bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking" and "malice" (Ephesians 4:32) and unforgiveness and strife and lusts of the flesh. So, in case this is what is represented by eating unleavened communion bread, I would say fine > 1 Corinthians 5:8.

And let each person speak for oneself about what one means by eating an unleavened host.

And let each group speak for one's own self, and do not go by what some nonmember of the group might claim in order to put others down and praise and exalt oneself. I think there are Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox people who know better than to get into such accusing and comparing > 2 Corinthians 10:12.

ArmyMatt · Aug 13, 2018

the line is drawn to distinguish Christians from Jews, and when the practical side of the Law becomes of theological necessity for Gentiles

TheLostCoin · Aug 13, 2018

dzheremi said:
Hmm. Reading it over at wiki and comparing that with what is found over at Syriac Orthodox Resources about the phiro, it seems that the phiro is much less varied -- the vast majority of those you'll find will be black, as that is the color which is worn by priests (while bishops and patriarchs may use red), and being constructed and decorated slightly differently.

It is interesting to read at S.O.R. that this was inherited from the days of the Ottomans, where it was required by the authorities to mark Syriac Orthodox priests in particular. I'm not sure how it could be taken as an example of Judaization, then, as I doubt the Muslim Ottomans cared at all or even recognized Jesus' Jewish heritage. (Remember, to Muslims Jesus is a Muslim.)

The Ethiopians don't keep kosher -- just closer it as a group than any other Christians. They won't eat pork, true, but there are plenty of Ethiopian dishes that mix milk and meat, which is a definite problem with regard to Jewish dietary law. Niter Kibbeh (Ethiopian ghee) is clarified butter, and while there is a version that uses olive oil instead (can't remember what it's called right now, but it's obviously what is then used in fasting dishes), the regular stuff goes into the stews into which various types of meat are placed to make doro wat (chicken), sega wat (beef), etc. (Which are all delicious, by the way, if you ever get the chance to try them.)

Yes to the former (in common with the Copts), no to the latter. In truth, circumcision was not practiced by any OO before about the 9th century, IIRC (it is recorded in the History of the Patriarchs of Alexandria as being an innovation, most likely borrowed in imitation of the Muslims rather than the Jews, though that could have been written with regard to the Egyptians and not the Ethiopians, since at the time the two were administered together; I don't know anything more specific regarding the Ethiopian justification for it in particular), and as far as I can tell from having asked about it, it is not a law, but a custom associated with the 'old country'. (And at that level I'd imagine it to be no different than, say, the segregation of the sexes in worship, which is far less controversially kept to by OO, and is something that EO here have told me their church also used to do, but is today only found in monastic settings.)

This other stuff regarding leavened vs. unleavened bread came up later for the EO and RC in particular, as that was a big and obvious difference between the two, whereas from what I understand with regard to the Armenians, their practice of using unleavened dates back to before Chalcedon (I wish I could find the reference now, but it was a long title in Armenian, which I don't speak, so I've since forgotten it; it was a kind of compendium with quotes dating back to the 4th century regarding various Church matters), and hence didn't become a problem for them in particular until after that, when the Armenians could suddenly point to it as something which likewise distinguished them from the Byzantines. (By the late 6th century we have Armenian Catholicoi refusing overtures to unite with the Byzantine Church by saying that they will not cross the river to eat leavened bread with the Greeks...ooof...such attitude these people have!)

In that case it is more definitely not connected to anything Judaic, however, as the Armenian rationale for this is that in their tradition leaven represents sin, and hence since Christ had no sin, their Eucharist is unleavened. (Oddly enough, in the modern Coptic Orthodox Church I've heard the same understanding voiced, at least by fellow laypeople, for our symbolic meaning as to why we used leavened bread -- Christ being the One Who took upon Himself the sins of the world. So there ya go. It can go either way, I suppose.)

Thank you for your patience with me and my ignorance.

dzheremi · Aug 13, 2018

You are welcome, my friend. I hope nothing I write is seen as overbearing or belittling or anything like that. I don't think it's ignorant at all to assume things about others if those assumptions are built on things commonly believed about those people, as is the case with the often-repeated idea that Ethiopian Orthodox keep kosher. Heck, in Israel proper (as in the modern state), Ethiopian Jews -- not even Orthodox Christians -- are often seen as 'not Jewish enough' (with some truly disgusting consequences, like being pulled off their jobs so that the workplace can get a stricter kosher certification), so something tells me that Ethiopian Orthodox Christians are not going to make the cut, either.

After all, despite the western fascination with their claimed Hebrew roots, it should be known that the Ethiopians openly state in their liturgy "Therefore let us not be circumcised like the Jews, for we know that He Who fulfilled the law of Moses has come." There is a hard line to be drawn here, even if outwardly it seems like different traditions may draw it in different places. Anything that would seek to turn a Christian into a Jew is rejected, though you can certainly have Christians of Jewish background who therefore may preserve their roots within the Church, as Fr. Alexander Winogradsky Frenkel of the Russian Orthodox mission in Jerusalem does by praying in Hebrew, for instance:

No doubt some (silly) people would probably think that this is somehow a 'Judaization' (why Hebrew? Why not Greek or Russian? Is outrage!), but if you look at it in terms of who the mission is likely preaching to, the priest's own background and the likely background of many of his congregants, and other practical concerns, it makes total sense.

To the best of my knowledge, there was never any practical concern behind matters like circumcision and so forth (it was only to make those Christians Jews/to appease the Judaizers within the Church), so such things were not forced upon the Gentiles, as per the decree of St. James and the gathered Church at Jerusalem in the apostolic council. To the extent that you do still find it, then, it is either because of rather recent Western trends (not even based in religion, as in the United States), or something adopted from non-Christians within a particular culture without the idea of making anyone Jewish (as in Egypt; Lord have mercy). I know converts to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church who refused to have it done to their children, and they were not in any way disciplined. And why should they be? It's not a law, just a custom. Same as nobody can make eat salted fish for Sham Al Nissim (Egyptian holiday celebrated by Christian and Muslim alike), thank God.

~Anastasia~ · Aug 13, 2018

We (EO) use leavened bread because we receive the risen Christ. For that reason it is theologically important to us.

When the Schism had not yet taken place there were strong discussions on the topic, and it was appropriate. What is the Church going to do?

But now we are separate, and it's not really our place to have anything to say about what the Catholics or others do. We are concerned with keeping our house in order. It's not our place to rail about or try to dictate to others. The door is always open though, if they believe as we do and wish to return.

dzheremi · Aug 13, 2018

I don't think there's anything wrong with the discussion, even among churches that aren't separated. The Syriac Orthodox and the Armenians had a lot of tension over exactly this issue in the late Middle Ages, with the Syriacs, including some big names like Dionysius Bar Salibi (prolific 12th century writer and bishop of Mabbug/modern Manbij, Syria) openly criticizing the Armenian use of unleavened bread and calling them ignorant of the true Orthodox practice. I'm not sure the details of the reconciliation (I don't think it ever quite reached the point of open schism between the two churches, but it certainly seemed to be headed that way), but in the end they were able to resolve it to both sides' satisfaction. It is a chance to (re)affirm our theology, as well as to root out potential problems.

This stuff is really important, and if you're going to be weird (like the Armenians are with regard to this practice, relative to the rest of the communion), then yeah, people are going to wonder what the heck you are up to. Nobody wants Judaizers. They lost already at the apostolic council circa AD 50, which everyone accepts.

Dicran · Aug 13, 2018

Churches sqabble, brothers argue ~ not a problem ~ leavening is our choice or not ~ Christians founded Christianity, Orthodox Christianity is the Church ~ where ever we gather ~ the Orthodox Church is in many countries ~ in all our flavors ```

There is much in what you brothers have written ~ I admit to not reading everything , every thread ~ but I will later when ~ I get settled in ~ which bunk is mine ``` Earley Orthodox Christianity was the first Churches ~ still are ~ started by Christians ~ there were Christians ~ before there was the Universal ~ when they/we got together in one place or places ~ the were/are the Church ~ Universal ```

God love you ~ I shall return ~ happy to have found you ```

Dicran

Dicran · Aug 13, 2018

I don't know anyone who claims Hebrew roots ~ the jews ~ mostly can't claim that root ~ most who identify as Jewish are Hazar or Kazar ~ However you spell it and were converted to the religion they practice long after the Birth of Christ ~ and ~ do not practice the faith of the Hebrew ~ don't you think ```

gurneyhalleck1 · Aug 13, 2018

I truly don’t understand the utter fascination with Judaism among Christians nowadays. Evangelicals tie Israel to everything. “I stand wuth Izruhl!” Sigh....

You see people ever since the Mel Gibson movie think it’s hip and cool to call the Lord “Yeshua” (even though they don’t call Simon “Shimon” or Samuel “Shamul” or Jacob “Yacub.” Another sigh....

People think modern atheist secular socialist apartheid Israel is somehow where the Third Temple will be built and the Messiah will come. You see evangelicals collecting money taking it to Jews in Israel and our government panders more to them than anybody.

Orthodoxy is the fulfillment of Judaism. It is the new Israel. I wish we’d stop looking back to a bunch of unfulfilled folks with hunger pangs anxiously awaiting a Messiah we already know has come, died, and risen!

dzheremi · Aug 13, 2018

Except for one occasional poster on this subforum whose name is escaping me right now (probably for the better; I don't really want to put anyone on the spot), I've never seen or heard of anyone in Eastern Orthodoxy looking back to the Jews in anything. And even that was just some idiosyncratic name choices and doing that thing where they type G_d instead of God because 'old Israel' hates the letter O, for some reason. _i vey!

gurneyhalleck1 · Aug 13, 2018

There have been a few Judaizing posters in here, trust me. And I know some "I stand wuth Izruhl!" types at church who never purged the weird Evangelical residue! LOL

dzheremi said:
Except for one occasional poster on this subforum whose name is escaping me right now (probably for the better; I don't really want to put anyone on the spot), I've never seen or heard of anyone in Eastern Orthodoxy looking back to the Jews in anything. And even that was just some idiosyncratic name choices and doing that thing where they type G_d instead of God because 'old Israel' hates the letter O, for some reason. _i vey!

Dicran · Aug 13, 2018

I've got to run away ~ as to un leaven bread ~ when wifey made Mas ~ yes it was un leaven ~ frankly it wouldn't mater to me one bit if it were Leaven ~ if I were doing the presentation of the Chalice ~ these are little things ~ but ~ once the Mas is Blessed it becomes the body of Christ and the wine The Blood ~ this I believe ```

Pari kisher

Dicran

~Anastasia~ · Aug 14, 2018

Dicran said:
Churches sqabble, brothers argue ~ not a problem ~ leavening is our choice or not ~ Christians founded Christianity, Orthodox Christianity is the Church ~ where ever we gather ~ the Orthodox Church is in many countries ~ in all our flavors ```

There is much in what you brothers have written ~ I admit to not reading everything , every thread ~ but I will later when ~ I get settled in ~ which bunk is mine ``` Earley Orthodox Christianity was the first Churches ~ still are ~ started by Christians ~ there were Christians ~ before there was the Universal ~ when they/we got together in one place or places ~ the were/are the Church ~ Universal ```

God love you ~ I shall return ~ happy to have found you ```

Dicran

Hello and welcome to CF and to TAW. We are very glad to have you join us as well.

Please let us know if you need any help with the forums or have questions about CF - always happy to help if we can.

God be with you!

The historical problem of "Judaization": When is the line drawn?

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