Revelation 19:3 smoke of the great City ascending forever

ClementofA · Jul 29, 2018

Der Alter said:
And nobody, no how has reviewed anything at your pet website.

You've never provided a single peer reviewed critical article of aionios in BDAG.

Der Alter said:
Your claim was that you specifically addressed the 23 verses I quoted. You did not do that!

But he did. Perhaps within the past few months, certainly within the past year. So did i. And Oldmantook very recently addressed several on the list.

Der Alter said:
Aion/aionios mean eternity/eternal<period> end of argument.

That was convincing.

Der Alter said:
I have PROVED it from a major lexicon and with 23 passages of scripture.

A major lexicon, BDAG, by one man, Danker. I'll put the early church father universalist Greek scholars & native born Koine Greek speakers up against him any day.

As for your 23 passages of Scripture, that has been addressed (see above & this whole thread). And the 23 have also been countered with dozens of other passages.

Der Alter said:
That Jesus said "the end of the "aion" one time does not prove that "aion" cannot mean "eternity."

It wasn't just one time, but several. Additionally there are references to (1) past eons, (2) this eon & the one to come, & (3) multiple future eons. No wonder no one agrees with your theory that eon & eonian always mean "eternal" except when used in hyperbole. You should give it up.

Der Alter said:
Jesus often used figures of speech such as hyperbole.

That is commonly acknowledged, just as grass is green. But you've never provided any evidence or scholarship showing the words aion/ios are - ever - so used. As you say, game, set & match.

Der Alter said:
.Here is another example where one word or phrase is used hyperbolically multiple times.

Matthew 16:26
(26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?[Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]
Act_17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;
Acts 19:27 There is danger not only that our trade will lose its good name, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited; and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty."
Romans 1:8
(8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
1 John 5:19
(8) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
Revelation 12:9
(9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Can a person literally, actually gain the entire planet earth? Was the faith of the Roman church literally, actually spoken of throughout the entire planet earth? Did the entire planet earth literally, actually lie in wickedness? Was the goddess Artemis actually, literally worshipped throughout the world? Did the entire planet earth literally, actually wonder after the beast? Did Satan literally, actually deceive the entire planet earth. What is it called when someone uses exaggeration to emphasize a point? I think it is called hyperbole.

Yet you've never provided a single example of hyperbole re the words aion/ios. Why is that? Because there aren't any?

Butch5 · Jul 31, 2018

Der Alter said:
If the clown that operates that website wants me to eat his lunch he will have to come here. I have been here for about 2 decades and I'm not chasing all over the internet for the next clown who claims "The church has been wrong for 2000 years and I'm the only one with the true truth. Come over here and drink my koolaid."

Ah, the ad hominem. I see you can lash out attack someone who isn't here. I understand if you're afraid to go there and discuss it. Remember the say, 'When the debate is lost, slander is the tool of the loser.

I specified "scholar." "'Peer review'-evaluation of scientific, academic, or professional work by others working in the same field." It may or may not include critiques. The reviewers may or may not hold similar views to the author. And nobody, no how has reviewed anything at your pet website.

You can't even stay with what you said. First you say peer reviewed and then you say anyone can critique a book. Make up your mind. Is it peer reviewed or is just anybody? Regarding your statement about the website being peer reviewed, I'll just leave you in your ignorance.

Wrong as usual. Same old "I'm right and you'e wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" It most certainly does matter who is writing or speaking. Does the clown at that website have any qualifications at all in Hebrew, Greek, Bible history etc? You don't know you simply surfed the internet for something by anybody, any where, that props up your assumptions/presuppositions'

Again, you speak in ignorance. You have no idea what I do. You don't seem to understand critical thinking and logic. An argument either stands or falls on its merits, not the person making it. If Hilter argued that 2+2=4 he wouldn't be wrong simply because he was an evil person. It's becoming very clear to me that you're not a critical thinker. You're insistence on claiming BDAG is correct is spite of clear evidence to the contrary shows that you're simply spreading propaganda.

Your claim was that you specifically addressed the 23 verses I quoted. You did not do that! Referring to one verse by Jesus does not address anything I posted. Since you have not done this you have not closed anything. Game, set, match!

Translation: you can't address what Jesus said because it shows plainly that you're wrong and misunderstanding those 23 verses. And, I didn't claim to address all 23 verses, that just another fallacy. However, I have shown that your understanding of those 23 verses is incorrect.

Either ignoring or twisting my words. Just more jejune "I'm right ans you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" Aion/aionios mean eternity/eternal<period> end of argument. I have PROVED it from a major lexicon and with 23 passages of scripture.

It's funny how you say I'm right and you're by trying to say I said it. Nice try but it doesn't work. All you've proven is that you don't believe Jesus.

You just shot yourself in the foot and blew your argument apart. Your claim

"You've simply drawn a wrong conclusion, that because aion is used in conjunction with God and God is eternal then aion must mean erternal [sic]. That, however, is a non sequitur, a logical fallacy."

Please explain how my conclusion is false. It most certainly is not "non sequitur."
That Jesus said "the end of the "aion" one time does not prove that "aion" cannot mean "eternity." That is a non-sequitur. Jesus often used figures of speech such as hyperbole. You have to prove that Jesus was not using "aion" hyperbolically. You cannot do that. Let us review two verses from my post again.
…..In the NT “aion/aionios” are used to refer to things which are not eternal but are never defined/described, by other words and phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc.
In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul evidently considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous.
The same writer, Paul, in the same letter uses both aidios and aionios to describe God. God cannot be eternal and finite at the same time. The only way you can refute this is prove that aidios never means eternal.
.....Or you could search the NT and find where aionios not only refers to something which cannot be eternal but is also described in the same passage by other adjectives or phrases as finite. Just as I did with Rom 1:10 and 16:26.

Actually, It's you who needs to show that it's being used hyperbolically. You're the one who is claiming it's hyperbole, therefore the onus is on you to prove it.

All I have to do is show that something that is aionios came to an end. That will show that it doesn't mean eternal. You see, the problem you have is that your definition of eternal can't accommodate those passages where aion clearly isn't eternal, my can. You see aion means an age. The length of an age is determined by context or other factors outside of the definition of the word. If you studied the usages of the word throughout the Scriptures as opposed to relying on what you find in a lexicon you'd see that.

13 And thou shalt put upon Aaron the holy garments, and anoint him, and sanctify him; that he may minister unto me in the priest's office.

14 And thou shalt bring his sons, and clothe them with coats:

15 And thou shalt anoint them, as thou didst anoint their father, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office: for their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations. (Exod. 40:13-15 KJV)

11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy.

12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:

13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel. (Num. 25:11-13 KJV)

Here Phinehas is said to have a aiona priesthood. The apostle Paul said that the priesthood was changed to the priesthood of Christ. How could it be an everlasting priesthood if it was changed?

If the priesthood is for an age then there is no problem with aion in this passage. However, if we say aion means eternal we have a problem. On the other hand, if we look at your 23 passages and change everlasting to age or ages it fits just fine and we have no issues. This shows that age or ages is the correct definition and not eternal

Here is another example where one word or phrase is used hyperbolically multiple times.

Matthew 16:26
(26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?[Mark 8:36, Luke 9:25]
Act_17:6 And when they found them not, they drew Jason and certain brethren unto the rulers of the city, crying, These that have turned the world upside down are come hither also;
Acts 19:27 There is danger not only that our trade will lose its good name, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited; and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty."
Romans 1:8
(8) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
1 John 5:19
(8) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
Revelation 12:9
(9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Can a person literally, actually gain the entire planet earth? Was the faith of the Roman church literally, actually spoken of throughout the entire planet earth? Did the entire planet earth literally, actually lie in wickedness? Was the goddess Artemis actually, literally worshipped throughout the world? Did the entire planet earth literally, actually wonder after the beast? Did Satan literally, actually deceive the entire planet earth. What is it called when someone uses exaggeration to emphasize a point? I think it is called hyperbole.

Not sure of your point here. I think we all know what hyperbole is.

Der Alte · Jul 31, 2018

Butch5 said:
...You can't even stay with what you said. First you say peer reviewed and then you say anyone can critique a book. Make up your mind. Is it peer reviewed or is just anybody? Regarding your statement about the website being peer reviewed, I'll just leave you in your ignorance. ..

Go back, carefully read my post and see how you have misrepresented what I said now more than once. Then quote it and show everyone how I said what you claim I said "anyone can critique a book?"

Butch5 · Jul 31, 2018

Der Alter said:
Go back, carefully read my post and see how you have misrepresented what I said now more than once. Then quote it and show everyone how I said what you claim I said "anyone can critique a book?"

As I said, I know what you said. You're trying to spin it. Not gonna work

Der Alte · Aug 1, 2018

What you claim I said.

Butch5 said:
You can't even stay with what you said. First you say peer reviewed and then you say anyone can critique a book. Make up your mind. Is it peer reviewed or is just anybody? Regarding your statement about the website being peer reviewed, I'll just leave you in your ignorance.

What I actually said.

Der Alter said:
What a joke. Talking about things you know nothing about. Anyone knowledgeable in the field can review and critique a book. It is not restricted to scholars that agree with the author. And the material at that website is simply one person's opinion with no review of any kind...

Butch5 · Aug 1, 2018

Der Alter said:
What you claim I said.

What I actually said.

Yeah, you can have someone who is knowledgeable in a field who isn't a scholar. A scholarly work peer reviewed would be reviewed by another scholar

Der Alte · Aug 1, 2018

Butch5 said:
Yeah, you can have someone who is knowledgeable in a field who isn't a scholar. A scholarly work peer reviewed would be reviewed by another scholar

I note you have not acknowledged that you misrepresented what I said.
.....Since I have been talking about "peer review" any reasonable, rational person would understand I was referring to peers, i.e. scholars, when I said "anyone knowledgeable in the field" followed by "it is not restricted to scholars who agree with the author."
.....But the point is I did not say "anyone can critique a book" as you alleged more than once.<period> end of discussion. Now how about those 23 verses?

23 passages.
[post #23]

Butch5 said:
You've simply drawn a wrong conclusion, that because aion is used in conjunction with God and God is eternal then aion must mean erternal. That, however, is a non sequitur, a logical fallacy.

Butch5 · Aug 1, 2018

Der Alter said:
I note you have not acknowledged that you misrepresented what I said.
.....Since I have been talking about "peer review" any reasonable, rational person would understand I was referring to peers, i.e. scholars, when I said "anyone knowledgeable in the field" followed by "it is not restricted to scholars who agree with the author."
.....But the point is I did not say "anyone can critique a book" as you alleged more than once.<period> end of discussion. Now how about those 23 verses?

23 passages.
[post #23]

Now you're projecting. You weren't clear in your statement and somehow that's my fault.

Der Alte · Aug 1, 2018

Butch5 said:
Now you're projecting. You weren't clear in your statement and somehow that's my fault.

It is certainly not my fault that you deliberately, with intent to deceive, misrepresented what I said more than once. Now especially for you.
In the following twenty three verses αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described, by association with other words and phrases, as eternal, everlasting etc.:

1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 16:26.

…..In the NT “aion/aionios” are used to refer to things which are not eternal but are never defined/described, by other adjectives and phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.

[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul evidently considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous.

[3]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.

In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.

In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Does the UR crowd think God is going to replace our destroyed earthly house with an ages long house which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.

In verse 23 “enduring word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”

[8]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting[αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”

[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here means “eternal.”

[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[15]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]

In this verse “aionas” is paired with “shall be no end.” “aionas” cannot be paired with “shall be no end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

[17]John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

In this verse “aionion” and “aiona” are paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand” If “aionion” and “aiona” are only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” and “aiona” by definition here mean eternal.

[18]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.

In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

[19]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.

In this verse “aionion” is paired with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal or everlasting life.

[20]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.

In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]John 8:51
(51) Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé unto the aion] see death."

According to noted Greek scholar MarvinVincent "The double negative “ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying they will die, i.e. see death, unto the age. By definition aion means eternity.

Butch5 · Aug 1, 2018

Der Alter said:
It is certainly not my fault that you deliberately, with intent to deceive, misrepresented what I said more than once. Now especially for you.
In the following twenty three verses αἰών and αἰώνιος are defined/described, by association with other words and phrases, as eternal, everlasting etc.:

1 Timothy 1:17, 2 Corinthians 4:17-18, 2 Corinthians 5:1, Hebrews 7:24, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Timothy 6:16, Galatians 6:8, John 6:58, John 10:20, 1 John 2:17, 1 Peter 5:10, Romans 2:7, Luke 1:33, Revelation 14:11, John 10:28, John 3:15, John 3:16, John 5:24, John 8:51, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 16:26.
…..In the NT “aion/aionios” are used to refer to things which are not eternal but are never defined/described, by other adjectives and phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, as in the following verses.

[1]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[2]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul evidently considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous.

[3]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [αἰών/aion] immortal, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [αἰών/aion] and ever [αἰώνιος/aionios]. Amen.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and be immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[4]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[πρόσκαιρος/proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this passage “aionios” is contrasted with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” a finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[5]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] in the heavens.
In this verse “aionios house” is contrasted with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Does the UR crowd think God is going to replace our destroyed earthly house with an ages long house which will also be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[6]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [αἰών/aion] he has an unchangeable [ἀπαράβατος/aparabatos] priesthood.
In this verse “aion” is paired with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue “for a finite period” and be “unchangeable” at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[7]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[αἰών/aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.
In verse 23 “enduring word of God” is paired with “imperishable.” In verse 25 the word of God “endures εις τον αιωνα unto eternity. ” Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity.”

[8]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [ ̓́αφθαρτος/aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[9]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption;[φθορά/fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[10]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[11]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
Here “aionios” and “aion” are paired with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[12]1 John 2:17
(17) The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever. [αἰών/aion]
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “pass away,” “lives aionios” cannot mean a finite period, A “finite period” is not opposite of “pass away.” Thus “lives aionios” by definition here means “lives eternally.”

[13]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [αιωνιον/aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [ολιγον/oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.
In this verse “aionios” is contrasted with “little while” Does Jesus give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die? Thus “aionios” here means “eternal.”

[14]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers cannot seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[15]Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom there shall be no end.[τελος/τελος]
In this verse “aionas” is paired with “shall be no end.” “aionas” cannot be paired with “shall be no end” if it means only “ages” a finite period. “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.

[16]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[εις αιωνας αιωνων/eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paired with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”

[17]John 10:28
(28) And I give unto them eternal [αιωνιον] life; and they shall never [εις τον αιωνα] perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
In this verse “aionion” and “aiona” are paired with “[no man can] “pluck them out of my hand” If “aionion” and “aiona” are only a finite period then at some time they could be plucked out. “Aionion” and “aiona” by definition here mean eternal.

[18]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “shall not perish.” Believers could perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal life.

[19]John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.
In this verse “aionion” is paired with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, “aionion life” by definition here means eternal or everlasting life.

[20]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
In this verse “aionios” is paired with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from life unto death.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [αἰώνιος] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
In this verse “aionios life” is contrasted with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death, “eternal life” is. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [του αιωνος/tou aionios] and ever! [των αιωνων/ton aionion] Amen.
In this verse “tou aionios ton aionion” is paired with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]John 8:51
(51) Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé unto the aion] see death."
According to noted Greek scholar MarvinVincent "The double negative “ou mé” signifies in nowise, by no means." Unless Jesus is saying they will die, i.e. see death, unto the age. By definition aion means eternity.

Now you can read mind in addition to your other talents. I'll address your list when you address the audios. Remember them? They're the reason for this discussion.

Der Alte · Aug 1, 2018

While I am at it I thought I would also post this little study I did of olam and ad in the OT
Thirty six [36] OT verses which define the word “olam.”

Exodus 3:15
(15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.

In this vs. “name olam” is paired with “unto all generations.” “Age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,”“for ever” does.

Psalms 21:4
(4) He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “length of days”. “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to length of days, “for ever and ever” does.

Psalms 45:17
(17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[עד/ad]

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “in all generations,” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “in all generations”, “for ever and ever” does.

Psa 33:11
(11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, [ עולם] the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

In this vs. “standeth olam” is paired with “to all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “for ever” does.

Psa 146:10 The LORD will reign for ever, [עולם/olam] Thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Hallelujah.[“ all generations” also Ps 100:5, 106:31]

In this vs. “reign olam” is paired with “unto all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “for ever” does.

Psa 37:28
(28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: [ עולם/olam] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

In this vs. “preserved olam” is contrasted with “the wicked shall be cut off,””age(s),”a finite period, is not opposite of “the wicked shall be cut off,” “for ever” is.

Ecc 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:[ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

In this vs. עולם/olam is equated with. “nothing can be added or taken away” from God's acts. “Age(s),“a finite period, does not equate with “nothing can be added or taken away” from God's acts, “for ever” does.

Isa 51:6
(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.

In this vs. “salvation olam” is equated with “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not opposite of “shall not be abolished,” “forever” is.

Isa 51:8
(8) For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my salvation from generation to generation.

In this vs. “righteousness olam” is paired with “from generation to generation” “age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “from generation to generation.” “for ever” does.

Dan 7:14
(14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

In this vs. “olam dominion” is equated with “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed.” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not pass away,””never be destroyed”, “everlasting dominion” does.

Jer 23:40
(40) I will bring on you everlasting disgrace [ עולם]—everlasting shame [ עולם] that will not be forgotten."

In this vs. “olam disgrace and shame” is paired with “will not be forgotten.” “age(s) a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,””everlasting” does.

Jer 50:5
(5) They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting [ עולם] covenant that will not be forgotten.

In this vs. “olam covenant” is paired with “will not be forgotten,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,” ”everlasting” does.

Exo 27:21
(21) In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever [עולם/olam] unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.

In this verse עולם/olam is paired with “unto their generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “unto their generations,” “for ever” does.

Exo 30:21
(21) So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever [עולם/olam] to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.

[“throughout their generations “ also Lev 10:9, 17:7, 23:14, 23:21, 23:41, Num 10:8, 15:15, 18:23, Psa 145;13, Ex 40:15, Lev 7:36][/indent]
In this verse “statute עולם/olam” is paired with “die not” and “throughout their generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “die not” and “throughout their. Generations,” “forever” does.

Psa 45:17
(17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[ עד/ad][“in all generations” also Ps 100:5, 106:31]

In this verse עולם/olam and . עד/ad are paired with “in all generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “in all generations,” “for ever and ever” does.

Psa 148:6
(6) He hath also stablished them for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[ עד/ad] he hath made a decree which shall not pass.

In this verse עולם/olam and עד/ad are paired with “shall not pass.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not pass.” “forever and ever” does.

Isa 55:13
(13) Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting [ עולם/olam] sign that shall not be cut off.”

In this verse “ עולם/olam sign” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting does.

[26]Isa 56:5
(5) Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting [ עולם/olam] name, that shall not be cut off.

In this verse “ עולם/olam name” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting” does.

Jer 32:40
(40) And I will make an everlasting “[עולם/olam] covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

In this verse “עולם/olam covenant” is paired with “I will not turn away” and ”they shall not depart from me.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “I will not turn away” and “they shall not depart from me.” “everlasting” does.

Jer 50:5
(5) They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual [עולם/olam] covenant that shall not be forgotten.

In this verse “עולם/olam covenant” is paired with ”shall not be forgotten” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be forgotten.” “perpetual covenant” does.

Lam 5:19
(19) Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; “[עולם/olam] thy throne from generation to generation.

In this verse “עולם/olam” is paired with “from generation to generation.” “Age(s) does not equate to “from generation to generation”, “for ever” does.

Dan 4:3
(3)(3:33) How great are His signs! and how mighty are His wonders! His kingdom is an everlasting [עלם/alam] kingdom, and His dominion is from generation to generation.[עם־דר ודר/am-dor w’dor]

In this verse [עלם/alam] is paired with “from generation to generation.” “Age(s) does not equate to “from generation to generation”, “for ever” does.

Jer 10:10-11
(10) But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal [עלם/alam] King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.
(11) "Tell them this: 'These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.'"

In this passage the living God, the eternal [עלם/alam] King has been contrasted with false gods which perish “the Living God the age(s)” is not the opposite of false gods that perish, "the living God, the eternal" is.

Der Alte · Aug 1, 2018

Butch5 said:
Now you can read mind in addition to your other talents. I'll address your list when you address the audios. Remember them? They're the reason for this discussion.

This is not Youtube. This is a discussion forum if you can't express it here in your own words it's not worth my time. If someone misrepresents what someone else posted once it could be a mistake but when that person repeats it 3-4 times after the misrepresentation is pointed out, then it becomes deliberate.

Butch5 · Aug 1, 2018

Der Alter said:
While I am at it I thought I would also post this little study I did of olam and ad in the OT
Thirty six [36] OT verses which define the word “olam.”

Exodus 3:15
(15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.
In this vs. “name olam” is paired with “unto all generations.” “Age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,”“for ever” does.

Psalms 21:4
(4) He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]
In this vs. “olam” is paired with “length of days”. “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to length of days, “for ever and ever” does.

Psalms 45:17
(17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[עד/ad]
In this vs. “olam” is paired with “in all generations,” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “in all generations”, “for ever and ever” does.

Psa 33:11
(11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, [ עולם] the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
In this vs. “standeth olam” is paired with “to all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “for ever” does.

Psa 146:10 The LORD will reign for ever, [עולם/olam] Thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Hallelujah.[“ all generations” also Ps 100:5, 106:31]
In this vs. “reign olam” is paired with “unto all generations,”“age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “for ever” does.

Psa 37:28
(28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: [ עולם/olam] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
In this vs. “preserved olam” is contrasted with “the wicked shall be cut off,””age(s),”a finite period, is not opposite of “the wicked shall be cut off,” “for ever” is.

Ecc 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever:[ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
In this vs. עולם/olam is equated with. “nothing can be added or taken away” from God's acts. “Age(s),“a finite period, does not equate with “nothing can be added or taken away” from God's acts, “for ever” does.

Isa 51:6
(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
In this vs. “salvation olam” is equated with “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not opposite of “shall not be abolished,” “forever” is.

Isa 51:8
(8) For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my salvation from generation to generation.
In this vs. “righteousness olam” is paired with “from generation to generation” “age(s),”a finite period, does not equate to “from generation to generation.” “for ever” does.

Dan 7:14
(14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
In this vs. “olam dominion” is equated with “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed.” “Age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not pass away,””never be destroyed”, “everlasting dominion” does.

Jer 23:40
(40) I will bring on you everlasting disgrace [ עולם]—everlasting shame [ עולם] that will not be forgotten."
In this vs. “olam disgrace and shame” is paired with “will not be forgotten.” “age(s) a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,””everlasting” does.

Jer 50:5
(5) They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting [ עולם] covenant that will not be forgotten.
In this vs. “olam covenant” is paired with “will not be forgotten,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,” ”everlasting” does.

Exo 27:21
(21) In the tabernacle of the congregation without the vail, which is before the testimony, Aaron and his sons shall order it from evening to morning before the LORD: it shall be a statute for ever [עולם/olam] unto their generations on the behalf of the children of Israel.
In this verse עולם/olam is paired with “unto their generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “unto their generations,” “for ever” does.

Exo 30:21
(21) So they shall wash their hands and their feet, that they die not: and it shall be a statute for ever [עולם/olam] to them, even to him and to his seed throughout their generations.
[“throughout their generations “ also Lev 10:9, 17:7, 23:14, 23:21, 23:41, Num 10:8, 15:15, 18:23, Psa 145;13, Ex 40:15, Lev 7:36][/indent]
In this verse “statute עולם/olam” is paired with “die not” and “throughout their generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “die not” and “throughout their. Generations,” “forever” does.

Psa 45:17
(17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[ עד/ad][“in all generations” also Ps 100:5, 106:31]
In this verse עולם/olam and . עד/ad are paired with “in all generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “in all generations,” “for ever and ever” does.

Psa 148:6
(6) He hath also stablished them for ever [עולם/olam] and ever:[ עד/ad] he hath made a decree which shall not pass.
In this verse עולם/olam and עד/ad are paired with “shall not pass.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not pass.” “forever and ever” does.

Isa 55:13
(13) Instead of the thorn shall come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it shall be to the LORD for a name, for an everlasting [ עולם/olam] sign that shall not be cut off.”
In this verse “ עולם/olam sign” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting does.

[26]Isa 56:5
(5) Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting [ עולם/olam] name, that shall not be cut off.
In this verse “ עולם/olam name” is paired with ”shall not be cut off.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be cut off.” “everlasting” does.

Jer 32:40
(40) And I will make an everlasting “[עולם/olam] covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
In this verse “עולם/olam covenant” is paired with “I will not turn away” and ”they shall not depart from me.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “I will not turn away” and “they shall not depart from me.” “everlasting” does.

Jer 50:5
(5) They shall ask the way to Zion with their faces thitherward, saying, Come, and let us join ourselves to the LORD in a perpetual [עולם/olam] covenant that shall not be forgotten.
In this verse “עולם/olam covenant” is paired with ”shall not be forgotten” “Age(s)” does not equate to “shall not be forgotten.” “perpetual covenant” does.

Lam 5:19
(19) Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; “[עולם/olam] thy throne from generation to generation.
In this verse “עולם/olam” is paired with “from generation to generation.” “Age(s) does not equate to “from generation to generation”, “for ever” does.

Dan 4:3
(3)(3:33) How great are His signs! and how mighty are His wonders! His kingdom is an everlasting [עלם/alam] kingdom, and His dominion is from generation to generation.[עם־דר ודר/am-dor w’dor]
In this verse [עלם/alam] is paired with “from generation to generation.” “Age(s) does not equate to “from generation to generation”, “for ever” does.

Jer 10:10-11
(10) But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal [עלם/alam] King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.
(11) "Tell them this: 'These gods, who did not make the heavens and the earth, will perish from the earth and from under the heavens.'"
In this passage the living God, the eternal [עלם/alam] King has been contrasted with false gods which perish “the Living God the age(s)” is not the opposite of false gods that perish, "the living God, the eternal" is.

How do you call that a study when you only present the passages you believe support your position? I don't see where you address the uses of olam that clearly can't be eternal.

Butch5 · Aug 1, 2018

Der Alter said:
This is not Youtube. This is a discussion forum if you can't express it here in your own words it's not worth my time. If someone misrepresents what someone else posted once it could be a mistake but when that person repeats it 3-4 times after the misrepresentation is pointed out, then it becomes deliberate.

Like I said, there is no debate with you. You simply dismiss any evidence that you disagrees with you. Let's go back and look at this. What I posted was not posted to you. The OP asked a question and I provided 2 audios for the OP to consider. You then began challenging what I posted. If this isn't Youtube and is a forum why did you even bother to challenge what I posted. If you had no intention of addressing the audios you shouldn't even have posted. Instead you did and you try to copy/paste you typical propaganda. Now you've been shown by several people that aion cannot mean eternity. Jesus spoke of the end of the aion. Now, you've gone and post a supposed study of olam that conveniently leaves out all of the passages that show that olam doesn't mean eternity. It seems your study is built to come to the desired conclusion.

It seems to me that you know that aion doesn't mean eternity and that is why you have no interest in addressing the audios. That would just provide even more evidence that you'd have to dismiss.

Der Alte · Aug 1, 2018

Butch5 said:
How do you call that a study when you only present the passages you believe support your position? I don't see where you address the uses of olam that clearly can't be eternal.

If you think that is a valid study then quit wasting my time with these picayune objections, and spend some time actually studying the scriptures. I did the same thing in the OT I did in the NT. I reviewed every occurrence of olam and ad which was closely associated with other adjectives or adjectival phrases which describes or defines olam and/or ad, either way. I quoted or referred to every verse I found. I did not find any verses where olam or ad were closely associated with other adjectives or adjectival phrases which described or defined either word as something less that eternal/eternity.
.....And let just remember it is a wrong conclusion, that because olam/ad is used in conjunction with something, someone that is not eternal then olam/ad must mean a finite length of time. That, is a non sequitur, a logical fallacy

Butch5 said:
You've simply drawn a wrong conclusion, that because aion is used in conjunction with God and God is eternal then aion must mean erternal. That, however, is a non sequitur, a logical fallacy.

Der Alte · Aug 1, 2018

Butch5 said:
begin

<B5>Like I said, there is no debate with you. You simply dismiss any evidence that you disagrees with you. Let's go back and look at this. What I posted was not posted to you. The OP asked a question and I provided 2 audios for the OP to consider. You then began challenging what I posted. If this isn't Youtube and is a forum why did you even bother to challenge what I posted. If you had no intention of addressing the audios you shouldn't even have posted. Instead you did and you try to copy/paste you typical propaganda. Now you've been shown by several people that aion cannot mean eternity. Jesus spoke of the end of the aion. Now, you've gone and post a supposed study of olam that conveniently leaves out all of the passages that show that olam doesn't mean eternity. It seems your study is built to come to the desired conclusion.<end>

end

Typical heterodox dodge. Anything you disagree with, you don't like or which proves you wrong you blow off as "propaganda." If you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen If you don't want your views challenged, don't post. I see my function here as helping the unwary, those without much study in the word avoid being deceived by heterodox teachings.
.....You accuse me of conveniently leaving out "all the passages that show that olam doesn't men eternity." Good you go to any sources you want to and show me any which include scriptures which contradict their belief that aion does not mean eternity. How about you, have you ever posted a single verse or scholar which shows that aion/aionios/olam/ad means eternity? Don't accuse me of doing exactly what you have done

It seems to me that you know that aion doesn't mean eternity and that is why you have no interest in addressing the audios. That would just provide even more evidence that you'd have to dismiss.

You act like Moses carried those audios down from the mountain. If they are all that why don't you write some of that stuff down and post it here. I do my own work, why don't you try that.

ClementofA · Aug 1, 2018

Der Alter said:
I did not find any verses where olam or ad were closely associated with other adjectives or adjectival phrases which described or defined either word as something less that eternal/eternity.

Der Alter said:
Irrelevant. If you want to prove that then go through the OT and show verses where "olam" is defined by other words or phrases as I did.

Der Alter said:
A verse or verses which define/describe olam or ad as eternal/eternity with another adjective, noun or phrase. .

To use your type of reasoning, in Psa.77:5 olam/aionia is opposite "old[qedem]/ancient=744/Gk. Old & ancient are not eternal, but finite. Therefore Olam/aionia are defined/described as finite.

Similarly in Deut.32:7 olam/aion is opposite generations of generations past which are finite. So olam/aion are finite.

Likewise in Isa.51:9 olam is opposite "of old" which is finite. And aion is opposite the "early time"/"days" past, which is finite.

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. (Psa.77:5)
I have reckoned the days of old,[qedem/6924] The years of the ages.[owlam im] (Psa.77:5)
I considered the days of old, and remembered ancient years.[αἰώνια/166] (Psa.77:5, LXX, Brenton)

Deuteronomy 32:7
"Remember the days of old,[owlam] Consider the years of all generations. Ask your father, and he will inform you, Your elders, and they will tell you.
Remember the days of old,[αἰῶνος/165] consider the years for past ages: ask thy father, and he shall relate to thee, thine elders, and they shall tell thee. (Dt.32:7, LXX, Brenton)

Isaiah 51:9
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; Awake as in the days of old,[qedem] the generations of long ago[owlam-im]. Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces, Who pierced the dragon?
Awake, awake, O Jerusalem, and put on the strength of thine arm; awake as in the early time, as the ancient[αἰῶνος/165] generation. (Isa.51:9, LXX, Brenton)

ἐξεγείρου ἐξεγείρου Ιερουσαλημ καὶ ἔνδυσαι τὴν ἰσχὺν τοῦ βραχίονός σου ἐξεγείρου ὡς ἐν ἀρχῇ ἡμέρας ὡς γενεὰαἰῶνος οὐ σὺ εἶ

"...as in [the] beginning of days[2250], as a generation of an eon[165]" (Isa.51:9b, The Apostolic Bible Polygot: Greek English Intelinear [of the LXX], p.968).

Der Alter said:
So you found 2-3 verses which seem to support your argument.

It was your argument. Using your argument i showed that olam/aion/aionios are described/defined as duration not eternal. Which, according to your argument, refutes your claim that these words always mean (are defined as) "eternal" or forever, except when used in hyperbole.

Der Alter said:
But wait didn't you say that the 35 verses I quoted did not prove that olam means eternal? So how can the verses you quoted prove the opposite?

I'm not claiming they prove the opposite. I'm using the criteria you used to provide verses you requested (and claimed you couldn't find after researching the subject) showing olam/aion/aionios described/defined as duration not eternal.

OLAM pretty much corresponds with AIONIOS in these verses:

Evidently the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) uses aionios of finite duration:

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient(aionios) times. (Psa.77:5)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone, which your fathers have set up. (Prov.22:28)
Don’t move the ancient(aionios) boundary stone. Don’t encroach on the fields of the fatherless: (Prov.23:10)
Those from among you will rebuild the ancient(aionios) ruins; You will raise up the age-old(aionios) foundations;... (Isa 58:12a)
Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because the enemy has said against you, Aha! and, The ancient(aionios) high places are ours in possession; (Ezek.36:2)
Because of thy having an enmity age-during(aionios)... (Ezek.35:5a)
They will rebuild the perpetual(aionios) ruins and restore the places that were desolate; (Isa.61:4a)
I went down to the bottoms of the mountains. The earth barred me in forever(aionios): yet have you brought up my life from the pit, Yahweh my God. (Jonah 2:6)
He beat back His foes; He gave them lasting(aionios) shame. (Psa.78:66)
Will you keep the old(aionios) way, which wicked men have trodden (Job 22:15)
Will it make an agreement with you for you to take it as your slave for life(aionios)? (Job 41:4)
’Will you not fear me?" says The Lord "will you not be cautious in front of my face? The One who appointed the sand to be the boundary to the sea, by perpetual(aionios)
decree, that it will not cross over though it will be agitated it is not able and though the waves resound within her yet she will not overstep it. (Jer.5:22)
Their land will be an object of horror and of lasting(aionios) scorn; all who pass by will be appalled and will shake their heads. (Jer.18:16)
Behold I will send, and take all the kindreds of the north, saith the Lord, and Nabuchodonosor the king of Babylon my servant: and I will bring them against this land,
and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all the nations that are round about it: and I will destroy them, and make them an astonishment and a hissing, and
perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:9)
And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity,
and the land of the Chaldeans; and I will make it perpetual(aionios) desolations. (Jer.25:12)
In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may rejoice, and sleep a perpetual(aionios) sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD. (Jer.51:39)
When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old(aionios),
with them that go down to the pit, that thou be not inhabited; and I shall set glory in the land of the living; (Ezek.26:20)
I will make you a perpetual(aionios) desolation, and your cities shall not be inhabited; and you shall know that I am Yahweh. (Ezek.35:9)
From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian(aionios) life and these to reproach for eonian(aionios) repulsion. (Daniel 12:2)
Thus says Yahweh, “Stand in the ways and see, and ask for the old(aionios) paths, ‘Where is the good way?’ and walk in it, and you will find rest for your souls.
But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ (Jer.6:16)
For my people have forgotten me, they have burned incense to false gods; and they have been made to stumble in their ways, in the ancient(aionios) paths, to walk in byways,
in a way not built up; (Jer.18:15)
Then he remembered the days of old(aionios), Moses and his people, saying, Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock?
where is he who put his holy Spirit in the midst of them? (Isa.63:11)
“Don’t be afraid; for you shall not be ashamed: neither be confounded; for you shall not be disappointed: for you shall forget the shame of your youth(aionios);
and the reproach of your widowhood you shall remember no more. (Isa 54:4)

Dozens of examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/two-questions.8069145/page-4#post-72837159

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-will-not-change.8070705/page-2#post-72885429

Jesus didn't use such words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

Der Alter said:
Here is a word study I did in the OT on the word "olam."

Der Alter said:
verses which define the word “olam.”

What Greek or Hebrew authority tells you the Bible defines words? What degrees in Hebrew or Greek do you have?

"I have never seen ANY word in the New Testament defined by some other word. The writers simply used the words; they didn't define them."

"Association with other words does NOT define a word."

As to your proficiency in Greek, remember this:

Der Alter said:
In order for the phrase to be correctly translated "to the king of the ages" the noun βασιλει/basilei must be in the genitive case, as it is in the 29 times it is translated "king of" in the NT. And that is why the NIV and NET translate 1 Tim 1:17 "king eternal."

Here is a response to your statement from a guy who knows some Greek:

"This is simply false, as ANYONE who has even a smattering of Greek knows. It is simply false that βασιλει would need to be in the genitive case to be correctly translated as "to the king of the ages." No, "των αιωνιον" must be in the genitive to mean "of the ages" and it is."

Have you ever had even one lesson in Koine Greek?

Der Alter said:
Thirty five [35] OT verses which define the word “olam.”

OLAM occurs in verse 31 here:

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

"olam: long duration, antiquity, futurity":
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5769.htm

100 Scriptural Proofs That Jesus Christ Will Save All Mankind
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/ScripturalProofs.html

Butch5 · Aug 2, 2018

Der Alter said:
If you think that is a valid study then quit wasting my time with these picayune objections, and spend some time actually studying the scriptures. I did the same thing in the OT I did in the NT. I reviewed every occurrence of olam and ad which was closely associated with other adjectives or adjectival phrases which describes or defines olam and/or ad, either way. I quoted or referred to every verse I found. I did not find any verses where olam or ad were closely associated with other adjectives or adjectival phrases which described or defined either word as something less that eternal/eternity.
.....And let just remember it is a wrong conclusion, that because olam/ad is used in conjunction with something, someone that is not eternal then olam/ad must mean a finite length of time. That, is a non sequitur, a logical fallacy

Well, it's clearly used of things that are not eternal. Yet, you posted none of these passages. I find it amazing that you say you looked at every passage and didn't see these passages.

And, just for the record, you're argument here is Red Herring. I never said olan or aion mean infinite. I said they are used of things that end.

Der Alte · Aug 2, 2018

Butch5 said:
Well, it's clearly used of things that are not eternal. Yet, you posted none of these passages. I find it amazing that you say you looked at every passage and didn't see these passages.

I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before posting a response. I did not say I didn't see any verses where aion/aionios were used of things that are not eternal. Read this carefully I read every occurrence of aion and aionios in the NT, while they are used of things that are not eternal I did not see even one verse where either word was closely associated with another adjective or adjectival phrase which further defined/described them as finite as in the 23 passages I quoted. In those 23 passages aion/aoionios are closely associated with other adjectives or adjectival phrases which further describe/define them as eternity/eternal.

And, just for the record, you're argument here is Red Herring. I never said olan or aion mean infinite. I said they are used of things that end.

Your argument here is a red herring I never claimed that you said olam and aion mean infinite. I don't even recall using the word infinite.

Butch5 · Aug 2, 2018

Der Alter said:
I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before posting a response. I did not say I didn't see any verses where aion/aionios were used of things that are not eternal. Read this carefully I read every occurrence of aion and aionios in the NT, while they are used of things that are not eternal I did not see even one verse where either word was closely associated with another adjective or adjectival phrase which further defined/described them as finite as in the 23 passages I quoted. In those 23 passages aion/aoionios are closely associated with other adjectives or adjectival phrases which further describe/define them as eternity/eternal.

Your argument here is a red herring I never claimed that you said olam and aion mean infinite. I don't even recall using the word infinite.

Ok, so, let me get this straight. You found places where they weren't eternal. But, you found nowhere where they were described by other adjective as finite. Is that correct? If they are not eternal, what are they? Do you have something in between finite and infinite?

Also, in order to have a logical fallacy one must present an argument. I wasn't. I was simply pointing out that I never claimed that olan nor aion meant finite.

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