(Jews) Why don't Jews believe that Jesus is the Messiah?

ubicaritas said:

It's only polytheism if you discount the Trinitarian doctrine which affirms the unity of God in substance.

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Bs"d

It is only polytheism when you can count to two.

As long as you can say: 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, then you're good.

And then they say that the Jews are blinded.....

Eliyahu52 said:

Bs"d

It is only polytheism when you can count to two.

As long as you can say: 1 + 1 + 1 = 1, then you're good.

And then they say that the Jews are blinded.....

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First off, I don't say Jews are blinded. As a member of a church that is part of the World Lutheran Federation, we are aware of the Christians negative history with the Jewish people and we do not countenance denigrating the character of Jewish people. But if you come to a Christian forum and expect us to agree with Jewish presuppositions about what the Messiah and God looks like, of course we will disagree.

2,000 years of divergent history have caused us to have different religions and I think that is the best we can agree on, hopefully.

ubicaritas said:

First off, I don't say Jews are blinded. As a member of a church that is part of the World Lutheran Federation, we are aware of the Christians negative history with the Jewish people and we do not countenance denigrating the character of Jewish people. But if you come to a Christian forum and expect us to agree with Jewish presuppositions about what the Messiah and God looks like, of course we will disagree.

2,000 years of divergent history have caused us to have different religions and I think that is the best we can agree on, hopefully.

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Bs"d

What do you think makes more sense: "1 + 1 = 2", or: "1 + 1 + 1 = 1"?

Eliyahu52 said:

Bs"d

What do you think makes more sense: "1 + 1 = 2", or: "1 + 1 + 1 = 1"?

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Does 1 * 1 = 1, or does 1 * 1 = 2?

Eliyahu52 said:

Bs"d

What do you think makes more sense: "1 + 1 = 2", or: "1 + 1 + 1 = 1"?

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One substance, God, revelaed in three persons. That's not bad math at all, it's simply more philosophically sophisticated than the kind of unitarian polemics you present.

Doctor.Sphinx said:

Does 1 * 1 = 1, or does 1 * 1 = 2?

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Bs"d

I see that you don't dare to answer my question. You should give this a lot of thought, because this touches upon the essence of your religion.

But you think that if you want to count all of your gods, then you can say 1 x 1 x 1 = 1.

Well, we all make mistakes in life. Happens to the best of us. Not everybody is comfortable with higher mathematics.
But I'll explain this to you.

When you have three pieces of fruit, and every one of them is an apple, than you have 1 apple + 1 apple + 1 apple = 3 apples.

Then you do not have 1 apple x 1 apple x 1 apple = 1 apple, but then you really have THREE apples.

Even so with gods.

When you have three persons who are all divine, then you have 1 god + 1 god + 1 god = 3 gods.

Then you do not have 1 god x 1 god x 1 god = 1 god, but then you really have THREE gods.

Got it?

ubicaritas said:

One substance, God, revelaed in three persons. That's not bad math at all, it's simply more philosophically sophisticated than the kind of unitarian polemics you present.

Click to expand...

Bs'd

In the beginning of Christianity, somewhere in the third century, a Biblical scholar reared his head, his name was Sabelius, and he claimed that the Christian God, the father, son, and holy ghost, were three different manifestations of of the same God, just like steam, water, and ice, are three manifestations of one substance; H2O.

The result of this brilliant insight was that he was branded a heretic, and excommunicated. Then already the church realized that this is impossible.
When you say that it is all the same God, only in a different form, then you say that God is his own son, and at the same time his own father.

Then when JC prays to his father, God is praying to himself.

Luke 22:41-42; JC is praying, "saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
So here God had a different will than himself?

Even in heaven JC is subjugated to the father according to 1 Corr 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fill 2:9.
So God is subjugated to himself?


When JC was hanging on the cross, he cried out: "My God, my God, why did you forsake me?"
Did God forsake himself?

Col 3:1; "keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God."
God is sitting on his own right hand?

God died on the cross, slaughtered by his creatures?
If so, who resurrected him?

The theory of Sabelius is impossible.

Eliyahu52 said:

Bs'd

In the beginning of Christianity, somewhere in the third century, a Biblical scholar reared his head, his name was Sabelius, and he claimed that the Christian God, the father, son, and holy ghost, were three different manifestations of of the same God, just like steam, water, and ice, are three manifestations of one substance; H2O.

The result of this brilliant insight was that he was branded a heretic, and excommunicated. Then already the church realized that this is impossible.
When you say that it is all the same God, only in a different form, then you say that God is his own son, and at the same time his own father.

Then when JC prays to his father, God is praying to himself.

Luke 22:41-42; JC is praying, "saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
So here God had a different will than himself?

Even in heaven JC is subjugated to the father according to 1 Corr 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fill 2:9.
So God is subjugated to himself?


When JC was hanging on the cross, he cried out: "My God, my God, why did you forsake me?"
Did God forsake himself?

Col 3:1; "keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God."
God is sitting on his own right hand?

God died on the cross, slaughtered by his creatures?
If so, who resurrected him?

The theory of Sabelius is impossible.

Click to expand...

Read your own bible. Genesis 1: 26 - 27
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

As you indicate, God is one (as He declares elsewhere), yet speaks to Himself - "Let us make man". It is clear that there is only one God, yet that there is more than one personality within this one God. Else how could He say "Let us"?

Doctor.Sphinx said:

Read your own bible. Genesis 1: 26 - 27
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

As you indicate, God is one (as He declares elsewhere), yet speaks to Himself - "Let us make man". It is clear that there is only one God, yet that there is more than one personality within this one God. Else how could He say "Let us"?

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Bs'd

Genesis 1:26; "Let us make man" If anybody finds in a text the word "us", would any normal person assume that it refers to one person with a multi-personality disorder? Of course not.

But why then, when Christians see the word "us" in the Bible, do they think that?

Gen 1:26 is used as a 'proof' that there is more than one God, or one God who is not one, eventhough the Bible clearly teaches that there is only one God who is one. and despite the fact that there are several other valid explanations for the plural word "us". One explanation is that it is a majestic plural as used by kings. Another possible explanation is that God was talking to the angels.

Some Christians try to refute the last argument by saying that the angels didn't create. They point to Genesis 1:1; "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." They say: 'God was the creator, and not the angels.' However, it is a given in Jewish law that an emissary is equal to the one who sends him. When a Jewish man marries a woman through an agent, the legal effect is the same as when he marries her personally. A good Biblical example of this is to be found in Genesis 19 where is spoken about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sent two angels to destroy the cities, the angels said to Lot in verse 13: "For we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it." Upon this Lot says to his sons in law: "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." Lot didn't say: "The angels are going to destroy the city" He said: "The LORD (Y-H-W-H in the Hebrew text) is going to destroy the city". And in verse 29 it is written: "So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley...." So the angels were send by God to destroy the cities, but God is considered to be the one who did it, because He was the one who sent them. So why shouldn't the same hold true for the creation?

But one way or the other, no plural created man. Look in Genesis 5:1; "When God created man ..." In Hebrew this is: "bara Elohiem adam" Here the verb "to create", in Hebrew "bara", is in the singular, indicating clearly that Elohiem who created man is one. The same goes for the very first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word created is here written in the singular; it says "bara". If God was a plural, it should have been "baru".


BUT, back to the pronouns, Y-H-W-H says the following:

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

It says "I" am Y-H-W-H. And, as we all know, "I" is singular, and not plural, and therefore no three persons in Y-H-W-H. Otherwise He would have said: "WE are Y-H-W-H."

But no such thing, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H".

No trinity.

Another example of a pronoun:

Nehemiah 9:6 “You alone are Y-H-W-H.”

As we see, it says that YOU, in the Hebrew singular, not plural are Y-H-W-H.

Again, no YOU, plural, are Y-H-W-H, but YOU singular, are Y-H-W-H.

So no three persons in God.

Another one:

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.”

Clear what? It doesn't say: “This is what Y-H-W-H says- Israel's King and Redeemer, Y-H-W-H Almighty: WE are the first and WE are the last; apart from US there is no God.”

No such a thing, it is all SINGULAR.

Another one:

Joel 2:27 “Then you will know that I am in Israel, that I am Y-H-W-H your God, and that there is no other;”

Again, God says: "I am Y-H-W-H", and not "WE are Y-H-W-H" Such a thing simply doesn't exist.

I can go on and on with this, but these examples suffice. There is NO plurality in God.

And the word "us" when God speaks to the angels, does not imply otherwise.

Bs"d

Also, when I read the Tanach, and even the NT, then I see the following:

"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4

"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version

"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"







"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version

"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version

"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible

"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version

"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version

"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version

"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message

"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version







"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version

"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version

"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version

"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version

"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation







"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version

"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation

"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.

"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.

"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version

"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible

"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible




So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.



"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version

"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version

"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible

Eliyahu52 said:

Bs'd

In the beginning of Christianity, somewhere in the third century, a Biblical scholar reared his head, his name was Sabelius, and he claimed that the Christian God, the father, son, and holy ghost, were three different manifestations of of the same God, just like steam, water, and ice, are three manifestations of one substance; H2O.

The result of this brilliant insight was that he was branded a heretic, and excommunicated. Then already the church realized that this is impossible.
When you say that it is all the same God, only in a different form, then you say that God is his own son, and at the same time his own father.

Then when JC prays to his father, God is praying to himself.

Luke 22:41-42; JC is praying, "saying, "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done."
So here God had a different will than himself?

Even in heaven JC is subjugated to the father according to 1 Corr 15:28, Matthew 20:23, Fill 2:9.
So God is subjugated to himself?


When JC was hanging on the cross, he cried out: "My God, my God, why did you forsake me?"
Did God forsake himself?

Col 3:1; "keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God."
God is sitting on his own right hand?

God died on the cross, slaughtered by his creatures?
If so, who resurrected him?

The theory of Sabelius is impossible.

Click to expand...

More importantly for us, God raised the humanity present in Christ from the dead. It is not simply "God raising himself from the dead" (which sounds a bit pointless), but humanity present in Christ rising with him. In that way, we Christians see Jesus resurrection as our own conquest of death, since we are mystically united with him.

Trinitarian doctrine is very subtle and it's one reason we have these sorts of disagreements, even among Christians historically.

I would say God in Christ experienced godforsakenness, the plight of all sinners. That doesn't mean metaphysically that God was separated from Godself, of course not.

Exodus 3:13 - 14
And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

John 8:56 - 59
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

John 2:19
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

Not stone. Jesus was the temple. He did raise up in three days!

Doctor.Sphinx said:

Read your own bible. Genesis 1: 26 - 27
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

As you indicate, God is one (as He declares elsewhere), yet speaks to Himself - "Let us make man". It is clear that there is only one God, yet that there is more than one personality within this one God. Else how could He say "Let us"?

Click to expand...

Many Christan scholars discount this verse as indicating what you are claiming. This article gives a few of them.

https://outreachjudaism.org/trinity-genesis/

Just as a note to all Christians participating, quoting the New Testament at us by itself as an argument is like a Muslim quoting the Quran at you.

Some do. Israeli News Live on youtube is a Messianic Jewish man.

If the Son is a manifestation of the Father, how does this differ from the notions of the ten Sephirot in Jewish mysticism?

Doctor.Sphinx said:

Exodus 3:13 - 14
And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

Click to expand...

Bs"d

There is a bit more to that verse: "Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” 15 Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘Y-H-W-H God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’"

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

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His name is Y-H-W-H.

The name of his son: "And Y-H-W-H said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says Y-H-W-H: “Israel is My son, My firstborn. 23 So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.” ’
Ex 4:21

John 8:56 - 59
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Click to expand...

So he claimed to be God.

In case you didn't know, the mental institution are full of people like that.

God is not a man:


"God is not human, that he should lie" Num 23:19

"He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.” 1 Samuel 15:29

"For I am God, and not a man— the Holy One among you." Hosea 11:9

Lost4words said:

John 2:19
19 Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”

Not stone. Jesus was the temple. He did raise up in three days!

Click to expand...

Bs’d

Why do you think that JC was ressurected?

Even in the New Testament there is NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS of his resurrection. No man saw him get up from the grave and walk away.

Oh, but he appeared to his disciples. Well, in that case, can you explain to me why nobody recognized him? Look in Luke 24:13-35. This speaks about the men on the road to Emmaus. JC met them, but they didn't recognize him.

The same thing happens in John 20:14; "At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, ... "
She thought JC was the gardener....

John 21:4 "Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. He called out to them, ..."

And again they didn't recognize him.

Isn't it strange that they didn't recognize the person with whom they were so close for years?

But the NT gives the answer to that strange phenomena. Look in Mark 16:12-13 "Afterward Jesus appeared IN A DIFFERENT FORM to two of them while they were walking in the country."
So it was a person "in a different form" from the previous well known JC who appeared to them, that's why they didn't recognize him.

A person in different form from the old JC, who was not recognized by the people he interacted with for years, only days before, doesn't that sounds like an impostor who is pretending to be the resurrected JC?

That also explains why some of the disciples doubted when the "resurrected JC" appeared to them: "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." Matt 28:17.

Can you imagine that the authentic JC appears to you and you still doubt?
Apparently he was not so authentic.

If the disciples, who saw the "resurrected JC" with their own eyes, still doubted, why then do the Christians 2000 years later, who have nothing to go by but stories, don't doubt?

Eliyahu52 said:

Bs’d

Why do you think that JC was ressurected?

Even in the New Testament there is NOT ONE SINGLE WITNESS of his resurrection. No man saw him get up from the grave and walk away.

Oh, but he appeared to his disciples. Well, in that case, can you explain to me why nobody recognized him? Look in Luke 24:13-35. This speaks about the men on the road to Emmaus. JC met them, but they didn't recognize him.

The same thing happens in John 20:14; "At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. "Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?" Thinking he was the gardener, she said, ... "
She thought JC was the gardener....

John 21:4 "Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus. He called out to them, ..."

And again they didn't recognize him.

Isn't it strange that they didn't recognize the person with whom they were so close for years?

But the NT gives the answer to that strange phenomena. Look in Mark 16:12-13 "Afterward Jesus appeared IN A DIFFERENT FORM to two of them while they were walking in the country."
So it was a person "in a different form" from the previous well known JC who appeared to them, that's why they didn't recognize him.

A person in different form from the old JC, who was not recognized by the people he interacted with for years, only days before, doesn't that sounds like an impostor who is pretending to be the resurrected JC?

That also explains why some of the disciples doubted when the "resurrected JC" appeared to them: "When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted." Matt 28:17.

Can you imagine that the authentic JC appears to you and you still doubt?
Apparently he was not so authentic.

If the disciples, who saw the "resurrected JC" with their own eyes, still doubted, why then do the Christians 2000 years later, who have nothing to go by but stories, don't doubt?

Click to expand...

Jesus is God. He can appear as He so chooses.

Did God not appear as a cloud in the OT? How about the tongues of fire in the NT? Etc etc..