Is The Rapture and Jesus' 2nd Coming Really Two Separate Events?

gomerian said:

And here's your verse, fixed... :--

Ezekiel 37:21-23
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God.

Which you could also read happening in Hosea, a bit farther on... and to the exact same people God put away in the first chapters... which He is seen here redeeming... He personally is bringing them home.
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Nice try, but that is not the meaning of God's Message to Israel through His prophet Hosea. What that Ezekiel 37 chapter is about is for the time AFTER Jesus has returned in our future, because it has some specific events in it that only point to the world to come.

This below is the part of Ezekiel 37 most leave out when trying to use it as evidence that Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 was when this was fulfilled, when it has not yet been.

Ezek 37:24-26
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
KJV

The easiest proof that is all still future is because THERE IS NO KING SITTING ON A THRONE IN JERUSALEM TODAY.

gomerian said:

Do you believe the words of Jesus, Davy?
Can you reconcile your statement above with the verses below?

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.
Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel."
John 10:4-5 And when He putteth forth His own sheep, He goeth before them, and the sheep follow Him: for they know His voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

If you believe Jesus, then you must be able to match what you believe to the words that Jesus says. It should be a very easy process, requiring no mental gymnastics whatsoever: can you do it?

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You're talking to the wrong person. Many years ago I did a long study on the ten lost tribes of Israel. They are not lost to God, but lost to the house of Judah (Jews) and the world. And I already know that you... have not studied the matter yourself to know what you're talking about. But I'd be glad to help you with that if you could humble yourself.

Most brethren don't even know what the difference is between the OT terms "house of Israel" and "house of Judah". Some disregard the terms totally and some even lie, saying those terms don't exist in God's Word.

So here's a part of it that will require "mental gymnastics" on your part, because I don't think you know about it:

Gen 35:10-11
10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
KJV

How is that God said He would make of Jacob's seed "a company of nations"? Where was that fulfilled?


Gen 48:18-20
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.

19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

20 And he blessed them that day, saying, In thee shall Israel bless, saying, God make thee as Ephraim and as Manasseh: and he set Ephraim before Manasseh.
KJV

The seed of Ephraim would become "a multitude of nations"? Where was that fulfilled? And it means Israelite nations, because Jacob said in that to let his name Israel be named upon the lads.

BABerean2 said:

Notice that Matthew 24:16 and Luke 21:21 contain the same words.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand(Read John 10:22 if you want to "understand".)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. (See Luke 19:41-44.)
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of this verse is about the events of 70 AD.)


Luk 23:26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

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No need for large letters; I can read well enough, not that old.

The Matt.24:15-16 section is not exactly the same as the Luke 21:20-21 passage. And only the Luke 21:20-21 verses align with the subject of just those two Matt.24:15-16 verses.

The interpretation is easy, both are of the same timing for the end of this world when the Antichrist sets up the AOD in Jerusalem. But the Luke 21:20-21 version is giving more information. It reveals Antichrist's armies surrounding Jerusalem, which for the end of this world, as I showed from Scripture like Zeph.3:8 and Rev.16 about the 7th Vial, that is a last day event.

So you cannot just pull out that Luke 21:20 idea about those armies and change what the Matt.24 and Mark 13 versions teach.

All of these following verses are for the timing right after the AOD is setup:

Matt 24:15-26
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
KJV

In Mark 13 we have the same thing as in Matt.24. So Luke 21:20-21 must be understood in the same light as given in Matt.24 and Mark 13. Applying Luke 21:20 about the armies being of the time of the Roman army under Titus in 70 A.D. attempts to change what our Lord Jesus showed in in the Matt.24 and Mark 13 versions. The only way to apply Luke 21:20 to Titus is for Titus and his army serving as a blueprint, a type for the actual fulfillment for the very end of this world, just as Antiochus IV in 170 B.C. served as a blueprint for the future Antichrist at the end of this world.

gomerian said:

Do you believe that Hosea is already fulfilled, Davy?
If so, then you must think Isaiah 28:1-20 is a thing of the past.

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I cannot be trapped into a corner about those Scriptures like you're trying to do. The reason is because I have studied them, and know their connections with past, present, and future, as all the Books of God's prophets contain history, and events coming to pass, and events future to come to pass. Only one not studied wouldn't know this. I say this because that's one of the things I'm trying to get brethren here to do, that is study more of their Old Testament Books, especially the prophets, because they contain the details of what has happened, what is happening, and what is to come. Most often when New Testament Scripture refers back to the OT prophets, it is one of all 3 tenses, and not always in the historical sense like the NT only folks like to preach.

So just what is it, laziness that some preach all the OT Books are history? like they don't care to do their homework in the OT Books?

Is that why you would ask me such a question? Is it really you that is wondering if those Hosea and Isaiah Scriptures are history? My answer: both of those Scriptures contain history, and events happening now, and events of the future. It's up to The Holy Spirit to help you sort that out for yourself.

gomerian said:

That job has already been filled.

Matthew 23:8 "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, [even] Christ; and all ye are brethren."

Matthew 14:26 "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

1 John 2:27 "But the anointing which ye have received of Him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in Him."

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To suppose one already has all the answers is to say they can never need a more perfect understanding in God's Word (Acts 18:25-26).

gomerian said:

I never even implied that I knew it all... you kinda did, tho... twice.




Matthew 14:26 "But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

This means that Jesus has all the answers. I sit only at His feet.

It doesn't take humility to sit at some human's feet, it takes gulibility. That human isn't going to hell for you when/if that human turns out to be wrong.
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The Holy Spirit will only reveal the meaning of Scripture when one actually reads and studies it. I can tell on these kind of forums who has really done their homework in the OT prophets, and who has not.

2 Tim 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
KJV

gomerian said:

I'm saying that Hosea hasn't been fulfilled, because Isaiah 28:1-20 hasn't been fulfilled. [I thought I was being fairly obvious about it.]
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Rom 9:24-26
24 Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them My people, which were not My people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, 'Ye are not My people'; there shall they be called the children of the living God.'
KJV

It's like I said, in all the Books of God's prophets there's things in them that are history, and things that are present for today, and things yet for the future. The idea of rightly dividing is being given by The Holy Spirit to divide them according to their timelines.

Where Paul quoted from Hosea 1 & 2 has some points of history (i.e., the ending of the kingdom of Israel under Ephraim which God had the kings of Assyria remove), and some events that are present today (i.e., as Paul is quoting there in Romans 9 about Gentiles being joined with scattered Ephraim (ten tribes under Ephraim) and being called the children of the living God, which is about Christ's Church, and then elements in Hosea for the future after Christ's return.

Same in Isaiah 28. There things in them that was past (like the Jews being spiritually blinded because of God's Word being 'precept upon precept..."), and that continues to many in Christ's Church also today, and will get worse until Christ returns. Then it's covering the future coming of the Antichrist at the end of this world. And God even gives a method of teaching His Word in the form of agricultural terms at the end of the chapter.

gomerian said:

What if the people you've dismissed as "lazy" are seeing things that your studies will never uncover? God sets His tests in some very unobvious places.
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My point about laziness is with those who stay in the NT, and treat the OT Books as nothing but history.

Still... no one has come forward to explain the Genesis 35 & 48 prophecies that Jacob's seed was to become "a company of nations" and Ephraim's seed was to become "a multitude of nations". Those mean Israelite nations too.

I kind of know why no one has answered that. It's because of the propaganda pushed that only the state in the middle east is Israel, and only the Jews are of Israel, as if the majority of God's people of the ten tribes don't even exist anymore!

Even Genesis 49 is prophecy to ALL 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL FOR THE END OF THIS WORLD by Jacob. So if the ten tribes no longer exist, and they are definitely not... joined with the Jews today, then how are those Genesis 49 prophecies even possible for the end?

Did you know in one of those prophecies of Genesis 49 about Judah, that they are to have the royal sceptre all the way up to Christ's ("Shiloh") return? That means a king reigning on a throne all the way up to the time of Christ's return! That ain't... in Jerusalem today.