Is The Rapture and Jesus' 2nd Coming Really Two Separate Events?

[Davy]

Is the Rapture and Jesus' 2nd coming actually TWO separate events, as some doctrines of men teach?

Answer: NO


Jesus spoke of raising up the believer on Him on the "last day", put for the last day of this present world, which is when the resurrection is to occur:

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

John 11:24
24 Martha saith unto Him, 'I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.'
KJV


In 1 Thessalonians 4, Apostle Paul showed the so-called 'rapture' (as "caught up" in the KJV), and the resurrection, as being of the same timing when Jesus comes:

1 Thess 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

Those "asleep" represent the saints that have died. Paul said Jesus will bring those with Him (from Heaven) when He comes. How will our Lord Jesus bring them unless He first raises them? He does raise them first, as Paul will show you in the next verses:


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

It's important to note that word "shall prevent" above is not the real Greek word meaning. The Greek word is actually phthano which means 'to be beforehand, anticipate or precede' (Strong's no.5348). Paul is saying we who are alive on earth shall not precede the asleep saints which have already died. In other words, Jesus raises them first.


16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

That's the resurrection on the "last day". Jesus raises the "asleep" saints first, and brings them with Him when He comes. And the following then happens next:


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

Then the saints still alive on earth are caught up to Jesus and the resurrected saints as Jesus 'descends' from Heaven bringing the resurrected saints with Him. Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 reveals exactly 'where' Jesus will return to, bringing all the saints with Him. It's to earth, at Jerusalem. That's the second coming on the "day of the Lord".

In 1 Thessalonians 5, the very next chapter after Paul described Jesus' gathering of the Church, Paul then explained about the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night". In Revelation 16:15 our Lord Jesus, on the 6th Vial, forewarned His Church that He comes "as a thief". So the "day of the Lord" is linked with the time of our Lord Jesus' second coming and gathering of His Church.

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are even more specific as to the timing of Jesus' second coming and gathering of His Church at the same time:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Timing = "Immediately after the tribulation"
Who will see it? = "all the tribes of the earth"
Which saints are gathered? = "His elect from the four winds"
Where from and to are these saints gathered? = "from one end of heaven to the other"

That Matthew 24 example is about Jesus gathering the "asleep" saints from Heaven, and He will bring them with Him when He comes like Paul said in 1 Thess.4. The Mark 13 version reveals the gathering of the saints still alive on earth:

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Which saints are gathered? = "His elect from the four winds"
Where from and to are these saints gathered? = "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven"

The Mark 13 example is about those saints alive on earth that are "caught up" to Jesus on that day. Thus Jesus also covered the 1 Thessalonians 4 event right there in His Olivet Discourse. No wonder the pre-trib doctors don't want their followers to think those Matthew and Mark chapters involve Christ's Church!

 

[seventysevens]

Another one of these .....answer is YES

If you be the type of person that would intentionally put your loved ones in the middle of a tsunami so they can prove their love to you; then you may think the answer is no

Jesus did not ask anyone if you needed a savior and base His decision to die the most horrific death for you on your opinion ,so that you don't have to pay the price of death for your sins -
If you repent and ask Jesus for forgiveness and accept His gift of salvation He will not require you to be put through the time of testing of the inhabitants of earth that refuse to repent of their sins , so if you repent and change your lifestyle to be acceptable to HIM - He will keep you out from that hour of testing entirely , but if you do not repent until after that time begins you will go through it , simple as that

 

[Anto9us]

It is obvious that the dead in Christ shall rise first, but would you say, Davy, that the living believers are taken to heaven THAT SAME DAY? I say it all happens in one day - the last day.

And I think it could happen any time, because I think Daniel's 70 weeks concluded with stoning of Stephen.

IOW, I don't believe in a 7 year "Trib" still to come.

 

[BABerean2]

Another one of these .....answer is YES

If you be the type of person that would intentionally put your loved ones in the middle of a tsunami so they can prove their love to you; then you may think the answer is no

Jesus did not ask anyone if you needed a savior and base His decision to die the most horrific death for you on your opinion ,so that you don't have to pay the price of death for your sins -
If you repent and ask Jesus for forgiveness and accept His gift of salvation He will not require you to be put through the time of testing of the inhabitants of earth that refuse to repent of their sins , so if you repent and change your lifestyle to be acceptable to HIM - He will keep you out from that hour of testing entirely , but if you do not repent until after that time begins you will go through it , simple as that

You are attempting to make the word "tribulation" to be the same as the word "wrath", even though they are two different Greek words.


Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ, found in Hebrews 12:22-24.
Therefore, the verse above proves the pretrib doctrine to be in error.

.

 

[claninja]

Is the Rapture and Jesus' 2nd coming actually TWO separate events, as some doctrines of men teach?

Answer: NO


Jesus spoke of raising up the believer on Him on the "last day", put for the last day of this present world, which is when the resurrection is to occur:

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

John 11:24
24 Martha saith unto Him, 'I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.'
KJV

I know we don't agree on a lot davy, but I absolutely agree with you here.

In 1 Thessalonians 4, Apostle Paul showed the so-called 'rapture' (as "caught up" in the KJV), and the resurrection, as being of the same timing when Jesus comes:

exactly, the dead rise first and those that are alive are 'caught up' or as paul also puts it, 'changed in the twinkling of an eye'.

1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Those "asleep" represent the saints that have died. Paul said Jesus will bring those with Him (from Heaven) when He comes. How will our Lord Jesus bring them unless He first raises them? He does raise them first, as Paul will show you in the next verses:

A little confused on this wording. maybe you could clarify.

Are you saying the souls of the saints are brought from heaven and put into their new bodies?

Because the saints who died before Jesus' coming wouldn't go to where Jesus was until Jesus came back. Once Jesus comes back he would receive those who believed and take them to be where he had prepared a place for them.

John 14:3
And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also

 

[seventysevens]

You are attempting to make the word "tribulation" to be the same as the word "wrath", even though they are two different Greek words.




.

I wish you would just stop with your feeble accusations saying I said something that I DID NOT SAY!
The Great Tribulation is implemented by God - if you choose not to believe it that is nothing more than your opinion

 

[TribulationSigns]

Is the Rapture and Jesus' 2nd coming actually TWO separate events, as some doctrines of men teach?

Answer: NO

Good.

 

[DaveDavids]

" clouds " in that verse of Thessalonians is from the word:

νεφος nephos {nef'-os} apparently a root word; TDNT - 4:902,628; n n AV - cloud 1; 1 1) a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng 1a) used to denote a great shapeless collection of vapour obscuring the heavens as opposed to a particular and definite masses of vapour with some form or shape

Are people sure they aren't missing the metaphorical part of this scripture ?

 

[BABerean2]

I wish you would just stop with your feeble accusations saying I said something that I DID NOT SAY!
The Great Tribulation is implemented by God - if you choose not to believe it that is nothing more than your opinion

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

.

 

[DaveDavids]

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

.

is that this devil ?

שעיר sa`iyr {saw-eer'} or שער sa`ir {saw-eer'} from 08175; TWOT - 2274c,2274e AV - kid 28, goat 24, devil 2, satyr 2, hairy 2, rough 1; 59 adj 1) hairy n m 2) he-goat, buck 2a) as sacrificial animal

 

[BABerean2]

is that this devil ?

שעיר sa`iyr {saw-eer'} or שער sa`ir {saw-eer'} from 08175; TWOT - 2274c,2274e AV - kid 28, goat 24, devil 2, satyr 2, hairy 2, rough 1; 59 adj 1) hairy n m 2) he-goat, buck 2a) as sacrificial animal

G1228
διάβολος
diabolos
dee-ab'-ol-os
From G1225; a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.
Total KJV occurrences: 38

mmm

Revelation 12:12

(CJB) "Therefore, rejoice, heaven and you who live there! But woe to you, land and sea, for the Adversary has come down to you, and he is very angry, because he knows that his time is short!"

(ESV) Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"

(Geneva) Therefore reioyce, ye heauens, and ye that dwell in them. Wo to the inhabitants of the earth, and of the sea: for the deuill is come downe vnto you, which hath great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.

(Greek NT TR) δια τουτο ευφραινεσθε οι ουρανοι και οι εν αυτοις σκηνουντες ουαι τοις κατοικουσιν την γην και την θαλασσαν οτι κατεβη ο διαβολος προς υμας εχων θυμον μεγαν ειδως οτι ολιγον καιρον εχει

(GW) Be glad for this reason, heavens and those who live in them. How horrible it is for the earth and the sea because the Devil has come down to them with fierce anger, knowing that he has little time left."

(LITV-TSP) Because of this, be glad, the heavens and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the ones dwelling on the earth, and in the sea, because the Devil came down to you having great anger, knowing that he has a little time!

(KJV) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

(KJV+) ThereforeG1223 G5124 rejoice,G2165 ye heavens,G3772 andG2532 ye that dwellG4637 inG1722 them.G846 WoeG3759 to theG3588 inhabitersG2730 of theG3588 earthG1093 andG2532 of theG3588 sea!G2281 forG3754 theG3588 devilG1228 is come downG2597 untoG4314 you,G5209 havingG2192 greatG3173 wrath,G2372 because he knowethG1492 thatG3754 he hathG2192 but a shortG3641 time.G2540

(NKJV) Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

(YLT) because of this be glad, ye heavens, and those in them who do tabernacle; woe to those inhabiting the land and the sea, because the Devil did go down unto you, having great wrath, having known that he hath little time.'

.

 

[gomerian]

Is the Rapture and Jesus' 2nd coming actually TWO separate events, as some doctrines of men teach?

Answer:

Yes. There may in fact be two separate "raptures"... if the two witnesses are also the 144k... and if the harvest is the multitude singing the old song of Moses.

Revelation 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Revelation 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Then the grapes of the earth are reaped, and taken to Armageddon. Because then, they will be coming to fight against Jesus who's just gotten here... hence, Jesus' second advent.

I guess the questions are:
(1) What do you want to call THE rapture? The multitude who are reaped had to go through the great tribulation represented by the vials, but the 144k only had to wait 42 months until the beast made war upon them (the saints) and prevailed.
(2) What are the identities of these peoples? Many will think that the grapes are the wheat.

 

[Chinchilla]

Is the Rapture and Jesus' 2nd coming actually TWO separate events, as some doctrines of men teach?

Answer: NO


Jesus spoke of raising up the believer on Him on the "last day", put for the last day of this present world, which is when the resurrection is to occur:

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

John 11:24
24 Martha saith unto Him, 'I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.'
KJV


In 1 Thessalonians 4, Apostle Paul showed the so-called 'rapture' (as "caught up" in the KJV), and the resurrection, as being of the same timing when Jesus comes:

1 Thess 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.

Those "asleep" represent the saints that have died. Paul said Jesus will bring those with Him (from Heaven) when He comes. How will our Lord Jesus bring them unless He first raises them? He does raise them first, as Paul will show you in the next verses:


15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

It's important to note that word "shall prevent" above is not the real Greek word meaning. The Greek word is actually phthano which means 'to be beforehand, anticipate or precede' (Strong's no.5348). Paul is saying we who are alive on earth shall not precede the asleep saints which have already died. In other words, Jesus raises them first.


16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

That's the resurrection on the "last day". Jesus raises the "asleep" saints first, and brings them with Him when He comes. And the following then happens next:


17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

Then the saints still alive on earth are caught up to Jesus and the resurrected saints as Jesus 'descends' from Heaven bringing the resurrected saints with Him. Acts 1 and Zechariah 14 reveals exactly 'where' Jesus will return to, bringing all the saints with Him. It's to earth, at Jerusalem. That's the second coming on the "day of the Lord".

In 1 Thessalonians 5, the very next chapter after Paul described Jesus' gathering of the Church, Paul then explained about the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night". In Revelation 16:15 our Lord Jesus, on the 6th Vial, forewarned His Church that He comes "as a thief". So the "day of the Lord" is linked with the time of our Lord Jesus' second coming and gathering of His Church.

Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are even more specific as to the timing of Jesus' second coming and gathering of His Church at the same time:

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Timing = "Immediately after the tribulation"
Who will see it? = "all the tribes of the earth"
Which saints are gathered? = "His elect from the four winds"
Where from and to are these saints gathered? = "from one end of heaven to the other"

That Matthew 24 example is about Jesus gathering the "asleep" saints from Heaven, and He will bring them with Him when He comes like Paul said in 1 Thess.4. The Mark 13 version reveals the gathering of the saints still alive on earth:

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Which saints are gathered? = "His elect from the four winds"
Where from and to are these saints gathered? = "from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven"

The Mark 13 example is about those saints alive on earth that are "caught up" to Jesus on that day. Thus Jesus also covered the 1 Thessalonians 4 event right there in His Olivet Discourse. No wonder the pre-trib doctors don't want their followers to think those Matthew and Mark chapters involve Christ's Church!

The answer is Yes and you don't need bunch of text to prove that...

Simple follow steps below

1) Paul said " i show you a Mystery " in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
2) Mystery is something true but never revealed before
3) All Old Testament prophets prophecy about Jesus comming to judge earth with his saints ect.
4) Therefore if Rapture and 2nd Comming were the same event Paul was lying about it being mystery.
5)Paul could not lie because Holy Spirit was guiding him writting Scriptures.
6)Therefore Rapture and 2nd comming must be two separate events

Hope it helps

 

[LastSeven]

All Old Testament prophets prophecy about Jesus comming to judge earth with his saints ect.

Can you be more specific please.

 

[BABerean2]

The answer is Yes and you don't need bunch of text to prove that...

Simple follow steps below

1) Paul said " i show you a Mystery " in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52
2) Mystery is something true but never revealed before
3) All Old Testament prophets prophecy about Jesus comming to judge earth with his saints ect.
4) Therefore if Rapture and 2nd Comming were the same event Paul was lying about it being mystery.
5)Paul could not lie because Holy Spirit was guiding him writting Scriptures.
6)Therefore Rapture and 2nd comming must be two separate events

Hope it helps

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to the end of chapter 4.
The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5, on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief".
We find the same language in 2 Peter 3:10, and Revelation 16:15-16.
There is no trip back to heaven in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 or 5.
It must be imported from another passage, to make the pretrib doctrine work.

.

 

[Chinchilla]

Can you be more specific please.

For example Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

If that thing spoken by Paul was the same day as this day of the LORD spoken in Malachi then it could not be mystery because it was revealed long before .

But it is mystery .

Jude 14-15
14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


So Enoch was alredy preaching of Christ comming with saints , it could not be mystery if that was the same event .

Plus if Jesus comes back with his saints he must have taken them up first right

 

[Chinchilla]

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to the end of chapter 4.
The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is found at the beginning of chapter 5, on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief".
We find the same language in 2 Peter 3:10, and Revelation 16:15-16.
There is no trip back to heaven in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 or 5.
It must be imported from another passage, to make the pretrib doctrine work.

.

I did not argue for pre-trib but for two separate events .

But if you want to argue for that then I will judge you out of your words just like Jesus would .
My question for you is

How can Jesus come both as thief and be seen by everybody ?

Revelation 1:7
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Hebrews 9:22
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

One time he appears for these who look for him ( blessed hope ) and once for everybody , and when he does that they mourn and hide from his face and are like this guy --->

 

[DaveDavids]

G1228
διάβολος
diabolos
dee-ab'-ol-os
From G1225; a traducer; specifically Satan (compare [H7854]): - false accuser, devil, slanderer.
Total KJV occurrences: 38

mmm

Revelation 12:12

(CJB) "Therefore, rejoice, heaven and you who live there! But woe to you, land and sea, for the Adversary has come down to you, and he is very angry, because he knows that his time is short!"

(ESV) Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!"

(Geneva) Therefore reioyce, ye heauens, and ye that dwell in them. Wo to the inhabitants of the earth, and of the sea: for the deuill is come downe vnto you, which hath great wrath, knowing that he hath but a short time.

(Greek NT TR) δια τουτο ευφραινεσθε οι ουρανοι και οι εν αυτοις σκηνουντες ουαι τοις κατοικουσιν την γην και την θαλασσαν οτι κατεβη ο διαβολος προς υμας εχων θυμον μεγαν ειδως οτι ολιγον καιρον εχει

(GW) Be glad for this reason, heavens and those who live in them. How horrible it is for the earth and the sea because the Devil has come down to them with fierce anger, knowing that he has little time left."

(LITV-TSP) Because of this, be glad, the heavens and those tabernacling in them. Woe to the ones dwelling on the earth, and in the sea, because the Devil came down to you having great anger, knowing that he has a little time!

(KJV) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

(KJV+) ThereforeG1223 G5124 rejoice,G2165 ye heavens,G3772 andG2532 ye that dwellG4637 inG1722 them.G846 WoeG3759 to theG3588 inhabitersG2730 of theG3588 earthG1093 andG2532 of theG3588 sea!G2281 forG3754 theG3588 devilG1228 is come downG2597 untoG4314 you,G5209 havingG2192 greatG3173 wrath,G2372 because he knowethG1492 thatG3754 he hathG2192 but a shortG3641 time.G2540

(NKJV) Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time."

(YLT) because of this be glad, ye heavens, and those in them who do tabernacle; woe to those inhabiting the land and the sea, because the Devil did go down unto you, having great wrath, having known that he hath little time.'

.

yes

in the NT " casting out devils " refers to the scapegoat ritual in the book of Leviticus where they blame the sins of the world on the sa'iyr ( devil ) and kick it out of town ( casting out )

Is there some other " devil " you are making reference to ?

 

[BABerean2]

yes

in the NT " casting out devils " refers to the scapegoat ritual in the book of Leviticus where they blame the sins of the world on the sa'iyr ( devil ) and kick it out of town ( casting out )

Is there some other " devil " you are making reference to ?

Are you attempting to claim that Satan does not exist?

.

 

[BABerean2]

How can Jesus come both as thief and be seen by everybody ?

Has a friend ever shown up at your house, without your knowledge that they were coming?

When they showed up, did everyone in your household see them?

.