• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Is The Rapture and Jesus' 2nd Coming Really Two Separate Events?

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟938,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The first part of that verse can be construed for the time of the 70 A.D. events. The Romans did lead away the Jews after they destroyed Jerusalem and the temple. But that part in green links to the Revelation 11:1-2 events for the end of this world when the Gentile armies will tread the holy city for 42 months, when the Antichrist comes to power.

You fail to see that the "trodding down" began in 70 AD, and will last until the Second Coming of Christ.


The "compassing" of the city during 70 AD is confirmed by the passage below.

Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


.............................................................................

You also seem to have missed the fact that the area now known as "The Temple Mount" is the remains of Fort Antonia.

"That's why today on the Temple Mount complex of buildings the Dome of the Rock is there, and also the old huge stones of the Wailing Wall. On the "day of the Lord" none of those stones will be on top of one another."


The only way to reach the conclusion above is by ignoring the words of Christ in Luke 19:41-44.




The following comes from Wars of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus, Book 5, Chapter 5, Section 8.



"8. Now as to the tower of Antonia, it was situated at the corner of two cloisters of the court of the temple; of that on the west, and that on the north; it was erected upon a rock of fifty cubits in height, and was on a great precipice; it was the work of king Herod, wherein he demonstrated his natural magnanimity. In the first place, the rock itself was covered over with smooth pieces of stone, from its foundation, both for ornament, and that any one who would either try to get up or to go down it might not be able to hold his feet upon it. Next to this, and before you come to the edifice of the tower itself, there was a wall three cubits high; but within that wall all the space of the tower of Antonia itself was built upon, to the height of forty cubits. The inward parts had the largeness and form of a palace, it being parted into all kinds of rooms and other conveniences, such as courts, and places for bathing, and broad spaces for camps; insomuch that, by having all conveniences that cities wanted, it might seem to be composed of several cities, but by its magnificence it seemed a palace. And as the entire structure resembled that of a tower, it contained also four other distinct towers at its four corners; whereof the others were but fifty cubits high; whereas that which lay upon the southeast corner was seventy cubits high, that from thence the whole temple might be viewed; but on the corner where it joined to the two cloisters of the temple, it had passages down to them both, through which the guard (for there always lay in this tower a Roman legion) went several ways among the cloisters, with their arms, on the Jewish festivals, in order to watch the people, that they might not there attempt to make any innovations; for the temple was a fortress that guarded the city, as was the tower of Antonia a guard to the temple; and in that tower were the guards of those three (14). There was also a peculiar fortress belonging to the upper city, which was Herod’s palace; but for the hill Bezetha, it was divided from the tower Antonia, as we have already told you; and as that hill on which the tower of Antonia stood was the highest of these three, so did it adjoin to the new city, and was the only place that hindered the sight of the temple on the north. And this shall suffice at present to have spoken about the city and the walls about it, because I have proposed to myself to make a more accurate description of it elsewhere."



Josephus said Fort Antonia was built upon a gigantic rock.



This provides tremendous evidence that the Dome of the Rock is the true location of Fort Antonia.


.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

gomerian

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
503
81
america
✟40.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
In Matthew 21, Jesus revealed this when He said the symbolic vineyard would be taken from the rebellious Jews and instead given to a nation that would bear its fruits.
...
The OT prophecies about Israel's future

Are STILL all about Ethnos.

Ezekiel 34:11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, [even] I, will both search My sheep, and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeketh out His flock in the day that He is among His sheep [that are] scattered; so will I seek out My sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day. 13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

Jesus fulfilled, and is still fulfilling, that Scripture.

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
15:24 But He answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me: 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.


Genesis 17:10 This [is] My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a mark of the covenant betwixt Me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which [is] not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Genesis 15:6 Abraham believed in the LORD; and He counted it to him for righteousness. [Meaning, Abraham did what he was told.]

Genesis 17:21 But My covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

And Abraham proved that he believed God, because Abraham said this:

Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, "My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering": so they went both of them together.

And this Everlasting Covenant, God repeated to Jacob, in Genesis 28:13-14. Abraham's seed Isaac, Isaac's seed Jacob, etc., ad infinitum.

The circumcised nation of Israel have been given the Everlasting Covenant, which means that they own the Promised Land. Period.

After the Herodioans and Pharisees had jailed "the voice crying in the wilderness", Jesus accepted that as their first right of rufusal, and went to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel... which lived apart from the 2-tribes. It is from these Lost Sheep of Galilee that Jesus was given Disciples... straight from the Hand of the Father whose Eternal Covenant had drawn them.

And after Judah/Benjamin had murdered Jesus for His crown, they continued to rob 10-Nation-Northern-Israel.
...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟938,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The circumcised nation of Israel have been given the Everlasting Covenant, which means that they own the Promised Land. Period.

It does belong to one of them.
He is found below.


Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Period.

.
 
Upvote 0

gomerian

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
503
81
america
✟40.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
It does belong to one of them.
.

In Matthew 15:24 Jesus says, "I am not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

Of Abraham:

Genesis 17:11,13 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a mark of the covenant betwixt me and you... He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Of Isaac:

Genesis 19:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him.

Of Jacob:

Genesis 28:13-14 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I [am] the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed; And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

Ezekiel 34:11-12 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, [even] I, will both search My sheep, and seek them out. As a shepherd seeketh out His flock in the day that He is among His sheep [that are] scattered; so will I seek out My sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.

Isaiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
...
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟938,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In Matthew 15:24 Jesus says, "I am not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.

Of Abraham:

Genesis 17:11,13 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a mark of the covenant betwixt me and you... He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
(At the bottom of your page...)



Rom 9:24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Rom 9:25 As He says also in Hosea: "I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, AND HER BELOVED, WHO WAS NOT BELOVED."
Rom 9:26 "AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."
Rom 9:27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel: "THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF THE SEA, THE REMNANT WILL BE SAVED.


Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

.

 
Upvote 0

gomerian

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
503
81
america
✟40.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Ezekiel 37:19-23
Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which [is] in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, [even] with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.
And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God.

______________

Red means where God gets the children of Israel.
Purple means one fold, with Jesus as their only shepherd.
Teal means the currently-Divided Kingdom.

I pray to God that you are seriously searching, BAB2.
...
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟938,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Ezekiel 37:19-23
Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which [is] in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, [even] with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand.
And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.
And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God.

______________

Red means where God gets the children of Israel.
Purple means one fold, with Jesus as their only shepherd.
Teal means the currently-Divided Kingdom.

I pray to God that you are seriously searching, BAB2.
...

Heb 8:6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.(Written in the present tense during the first century.)
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—
(Quoted from the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

Heb 8:9 NOT ACCORDING TO THE COVENANT THAT I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS IN THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT; BECAUSE THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT, AND I DISREGARDED THEM, SAYS THE LORD.
Heb 8:10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS IN THEIR MIND AND WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
Heb 8:12 FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

.
 
Upvote 0

Davy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 25, 2017
4,861
1,022
USA
✟291,297.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You fail to see that the "trodding down" began in 70 AD, and will last until the Second Coming of Christ.

The Gentiles treading the city (Jerusalem) for 42 months is for the very end of this world, not back in 70 A.D. That 42 months is the future event of "great tribulation" Jesus warned us about. It coincides with the 42 month reign of the coming Antichrist:


Rev 11:1-2
11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
KJV

Rev 13:4-8
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
KJV


The "compassing" of the city during 70 AD is confirmed by the passage below.
Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.



That does reveal the destruction of Jerusalem back in 70 A.D. What you fail to realize is that served as a 'type' for the destruction coming on the future "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns.

Zeph 3:8-9

8 Therefore wait ye upon Me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them Mine indignation, even all My fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy.
9 For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon the name of the LORD, to serve Him with one consent.
KJV

That's the 7th Vial event of Revelation 16, which is also when the battle of Armageddon will occur at Jesus' return. That's what Luke 21 regarding the armies surrounding Jerusalem is really about. Did Titus' Roman army surround Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and destroy it? Yes, but that is not what the "abomination of desolation" event from the Book of Daniel is about, as you well know. Christ's specific mention of the "abomination of desolation" being placed is in regard to a standing temple in Jerusalem, not a destruction of the temple like in 70 A.D. Jerusalem.

In the Luke 21 version, Jesus didn't mention the specific "abomination of desolation" idol event, but He did in the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 versions of these signs for the end. I've already mentioned this fact once, now I mention it again, because you apparently are determined to overlook this point.

.............................................................................
You also seem to have missed the fact that the area now known as "The Temple Mount" is the remains of Fort Antonia.

"That's why today on the Temple Mount complex of buildings the Dome of the Rock is there, and also the old huge stones of the Wailing Wall. On the "day of the Lord" none of those stones will be on top of one another."


The only way to reach the conclusion above is by ignoring the words of Christ in Luke 19:41-44.

That statement limits God's Word about prophecy given that is still yet for our future concerning the end of this present world. It only creates tunnel vision, because Jerusalem has been sieged something like 27 times in its history, even conquered by pagans once and renamed (Jupiter?). Jerusalem is to be sieged one more time for the very end of this world, and that's the timing Jesus is speaking of in His Olivet Discourse. By wanting to say the 70 A.D. destruction was anything other than a 'type' for the final destruction, that is to disregard the much bigger destruction on the whole earth that's still yet to come.


And I don't see any value in your arguments about the position of the Dome of the Rock and the Wailing Wall, except maybe with you possibly having a desire to support the orthodox Jews today who plan to build their next temple as they have the materials ready today to do that.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟938,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
In the Luke 21 version, Jesus didn't mention the specific "abomination of desolation" idol event, but He did in the Matthew 24 and Mark 13 versions of these signs for the end. I've already mentioned this fact once, now I mention it again, because you apparently are determined to overlook this point.

Ignore the historical fact that Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue in the sanctuary and had a pig slaughtered on the altar during 167 BC, and ignore the verse below, and maybe you can make your doctrine work...

Joh 10:22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.

.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟938,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The 10 Commandments are written in stone.
Are they ready to vanish away?
...

Below Paul compelled the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage".

Gal 4:24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar—
Gal 4:25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—
Gal 4:26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Gal 4:27 For it is written: "REJOICE, O BARREN, YOU WHO DO NOT BEAR! BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR! FOR THE DESOLATE HAS MANY MORE CHILDREN THAN SHE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
Gal 4:29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now.
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREEWOMAN."
Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.


Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
(Written in the present tense during the first century.)


Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
(From the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34.)
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
(Written in the present tense during the first century.)

.
 
Upvote 0

Davy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 25, 2017
4,861
1,022
USA
✟291,297.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Are STILL all about Ethnos.

Why do Jews seem to think that when you speak of Christ's Church inheriting God's promises like Apostle Paul taught in Galatians 3, that it goes against the future prophecies of God's promises to restore the kingdom of Israel back to its old inheritances?

The Gentile believers will... inherit WITH the believers on Christ Jesus of the seed of Israel. It actually has ALREADY happened in part today with Christ's Church. The only things left are the promises in Christ about His future Kingdom in the world to come, which are... the promises to both the believing seed of Israel, AND Gentile believers with them, as ONE body.

Probably half of Christ's many member body, His Church, is made up of scattered seed of the twelve tribes of Israel.

Part of the prophecies God gave through Hosea to Ephraim and the ten northern tribes of Israel because of their rebellion against Him, involved how He would scatter Israel, and make them not able to find their way back, and give them the full weight of their Baal idol worship they loved, losing their knowledge of the feasts, new moons, and sabbaths. Then when it was time, He would lure her into the wilderness (new lands), and give her vineyards from there, and speak comfortably to her. And He then said He would give them a new covenant, and betroth her to Himself. That is when He said this:

Hos 2:23
23 And I will sow her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not My people, "Thou art My people"; and they shall say, "Thou art my God."

KJV

That in red is what Peter and Paul quoted to believing Gentiles in Christ's Church (Rom.9; 1 Peter 2).

Thus the idea of an Israelite nation involving just the seed of Israel is against God's Word. Paul used the term "commonwealth of Israel" in Ephesians 2, and that's what God's true Israel is today, and will be in the world to come under Christ Jesus.

The nation of Israel today in the middle east is only the manifestation of God's promise in 1 Kings 11 that He would always leave one tribe in Jerusalem, and also His promise of Jeremiah 24 that He would eventually bring a remnant of Judah back to Jerusalem and not remove them anymore (1948 event).

Per OT history, God separated the 12 tribes of Israel into 2 separate kingdoms, and the southern kingdom at Jerusalem made up only the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin (and later Levi and some small remnants of the northern tribes who left Jeroboam's idol calf worship in the north). That history begins in 1 Kings 11 and continues throughout 2 Kings 17 when God finally removed all the northern ten tribes captive to Assyria and the land of the Medes, never to return to this day. That is who God was speaking to through Hosea. It was primarily about the ten northern tribed "house of Israel", and not Judah (Jews). Judah never lost its heritage of the feast days, new moons, and sabbaths.

Those who have not studied that Bible history are way, way, behind in understanding God's Word about Christ's Church and the promises in the world to come.
 
Upvote 0

Davy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 25, 2017
4,861
1,022
USA
✟291,297.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Ignore the historical fact that Antiochus Epiphanes set up a statue in the sanctuary and had a pig slaughtered on the altar during 167 BC, and ignore the verse below, and maybe you can make your doctrine work...

Joh 10:22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.

.

I didn't ignore what Antiochus IV did in 170 B.C. I even mentioned him in my post concerning him as a 'type' for the future Antichrist and placing of the "abomination of desolation". Yet you ignored that obviously.

In the above you reveal you're only regurgitating a doctrine from men, and not from your own mind, simply because Jesus in His Olivet Discourse forewarned of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel about 200 years AFTER Antiochus Epiphanes had taken Jerusalem in 170 B.C., and went inside the temple to sacrifice swine upon the altar, and place the abomination idol to Zeus worship (per Josephus).

What does it mean then for the time of the "abomination of desolation" Jesus quoted from Scripture like in Daniel 11?

It means the "abomination of desolation" event was not fulfilled at His 1st coming, nor by the Roman army that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D., simply because the abomination of desolation is about the placing of an idol in a STANDING TEMPLE in Jerusalem.

And there in Christ's Olivet Discourse, He is showing us this idol abomination event is for the very end of this world when the Antichrist shows up in Jerusalem. Not only there in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 does He reveal that, but also through His servant John in Revelation 13:11 forward He reveals it again, even showing us about the "image of the beast" the dragon will setup in false worship for the end of this world! I mean really, how big an anvil do some folks need to wake them up about those warnings He gave us about even our future???
 
Upvote 0

gomerian

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
503
81
america
✟40.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Hos 2:23
23 And I will sow her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not My people, "Thou art My people"; and they shall say, "Thou art my God."

KJV

And here's your verse, fixed... :--

Ezekiel 37:21-23
Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be My people, and I will be their God.

Which you could also read happening in Hosea, a bit farther on... and to the exact same people God put away in the first chapters... which He is seen here redeeming... He personally is bringing them home.
...
 
Upvote 0

gomerian

Well-Known Member
Apr 29, 2018
503
81
america
✟40.00
Country
United States
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Thus the idea of an Israelite nation involving just the seed of Israel is against God's Word.

Do you believe the words of Jesus, Davy?
Can you reconcile your statement above with the verses below?

Matthew 10:6 But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.
Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel."
John 10:4-5 And when He putteth forth His own sheep, He goeth before them, and the sheep follow Him: for they know His voice. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

If you believe Jesus, then you must be able to match what you believe to the words that Jesus says. It should be a very easy process, requiring no mental gymnastics whatsoever: can you do it?
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟938,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes or No, BABerean2.
...

2Co 3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,

2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟938,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I didn't ignore what Antiochus IV did in 170 B.C. I even mentioned him in my post concerning him as a 'type' for the future Antichrist and placing of the "abomination of desolation". Yet you ignored that obviously.

In the above you reveal you're only regurgitating a doctrine from men, and not from your own mind, simply because Jesus in His Olivet Discourse forewarned of the "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel about 200 years AFTER Antiochus Epiphanes had taken Jerusalem in 170 B.C., and went inside the temple to sacrifice swine upon the altar, and place the abomination idol to Zeus worship (per Josephus).

What does it mean then for the time of the "abomination of desolation" Jesus quoted from Scripture like in Daniel 11?

It means the "abomination of desolation" event was not fulfilled at His 1st coming, nor by the Roman army that destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D., simply because the abomination of desolation is about the placing of an idol in a STANDING TEMPLE in Jerusalem.

And there in Christ's Olivet Discourse, He is showing us this idol abomination event is for the very end of this world when the Antichrist shows up in Jerusalem. Not only there in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 does He reveal that, but also through His servant John in Revelation 13:11 forward He reveals it again, even showing us about the "image of the beast" the dragon will setup in false worship for the end of this world! I mean really, how big an anvil do some folks need to wake them up about those warnings He gave us about even our future???

Notice that Matthew 24:16 and Luke 21:21 contain the same words.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)(Read John 10:22 if you want to "understand".)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. (See Luke 19:41-44.)
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of this verse is about the events of 70 AD.)


Luk 23:26 And as they led him away, they laid hold upon one Simon, a Cyrenian, coming out of the country, and on him they laid the cross, that he might bear it after Jesus.
Luk 23:27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.
Luk 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
Luk 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.
Luk 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
Luk 23:31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Site Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟938,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, or No.

It ain't rocket science, BABerean2, Pick One.
...

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Hebrews 7:12

(CJB) For if the system of cohanim is transformed, there must of necessity occur a transformation of Torah.

(ESV) For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

(Geneva) For if the Priesthood be changed, then of necessitie must there be a change of the Lawe.

(Greek NT TR) μετατιθεμενης γαρ της ιερωσυνης εξ αναγκης και νομου μεταθεσις γινεται

(LITV-TSP) For the priestly office having been changed, of necessity a change of law also occurs.

(KJV) For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

(KJV+) ForG1063 theG3588 priesthoodG2420 being changed,G3346 there is madeG1096 ofG1537 necessityG318 a changeG3331 alsoG2532 of the law.G3551

(NKJV) For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

(YLT) for the priesthood being changed, of necessity also, of the law a change doth come,

.
 
Upvote 0