Why do People Fight so hard for Their Own Free Will ?

food4thought · May 3, 2018

John tower said:
Of course !

OK then, what do you make of this passage:

1 Timothy 2:3-4 NASB This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, (4) who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

If God desires all to be saved, and His will is always done, then does this mean that universal reconciliation is correct?

zoidar · May 3, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
Even if, EVEN IF if it turns out in the end, that we find out we (none, or any of us) really "did not" have a choice, or made no choices, in anything, (in the end, or in the grand scheme of things)... we still have to proceed, and must think like, and/or in a/the way of us, having and making choices in things... cause there just is no other choice, or way to go about it...

Even if we do not have or make choices, we have no choice but to proceed and live like and think like we do have and make choices... Even if it turns out (in the end) that we may not have, cause there is just simply no other (choice) or way to go about it...

Because, even if it turns out this way (no choice) with God and us, God is not going to show us, or let us see in on, or peer in on, or peek in on, how that (not really having a choice or making our own decisions) is that way...

So, we to proceed and think like and as if we do have choice, cause there is no other choice..

We'll find out in the end if we really did or not, but not until then...

Right now, we cannot know... And, because we "cannot know", (and really never will know, in this life) (but in the next only) we must proceed as if we do have a choice and proceed and think from there, cause there is just simply no other choice to go about as if we do (a) choice...

God Bless!

The problem with this thinking Neogaia is that if you believe you don't have free choice you will act differently than if you believe there is. So it's very important to believe in free will, because it will turn you in direction to live a holier life.

Neogaia777 · May 3, 2018

zoidar said:
The problem with this thinking Neogaia is that if you believe you don't have free choice you will act differently than if you believe there is. So it's very important to believe in free will, because it will turn you in direction to live a holier life.

I always act as if the decision is mine, cause that is only one way one can act... I'm just not sure if that's what the findings will be in the end of not...

And since we can't know till we get there, I will always proceed and act as if the decision is actually always, (or most of the time), always mine regardless... Cause that is the only way one can go about it...

I just don't know what it will turn out to be in the end...

Talking about in reference to, or in relation to, God the Father, (the true Father) and not God the Son (Our God)... His (Our God's) path may have been all predetermined by God the Father (His Father and our true Father) as well... And as might be the case with us, or some of us, or some, if not all of us/ours (paths)...

We just don't know, so have to proceed as if we do have (a) or make many choices that we make of our own free will...

God Bless!

John tower · May 3, 2018

RDKirk said:
Because a "bound will" is what scripture explicitly describes.

Amen brother : Mt 13(11)

Neogaia777 · May 3, 2018

zoidar said:
The problem with this thinking Neogaia is that if you believe you don't have free choice you will act differently than if you believe there is. So it's very important to believe in free will, because it will turn you in direction to live a holier life.

Neogaia777 said:
I always act as if the decision is mine, cause that is only one way one can act... I'm just not sure if that's what the findings will be in the end of not...

And since we can't know till we get there, I will always proceed and act as if the decision is actually always, (or most of the time), always mine regardless... Cause that is the only way one can go about it...

I just don't know what it will turn out to be in the end...

Talking about in reference to, or in relation to, God the Father, (the true Father) and not God the Son (Our God)... His (Our God's) path may have been all predetermined by God the Father (His Father and our true Father) as well... And as might be the case with us, or some of us, or some, if not all of us/ours (paths)...

We just don't know, so have to proceed as if we do have (a) or make many choices that we make of our own free will...

God Bless!

When Jesus (our God) said to his/our true Father, "Father not my will, but your will" (be done in and with me/us/him...

It means that it must be possible to a thing "outside" God, the true Father's will, or "stray" from the true Father's predestined path for us... And, that, the real trick is/was using your own will to stay on that predestined, predetermined path for us, or the true Father's will for you/us/him...

God Bless!

zoidar · May 3, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
I always act as if the decision is mine, cause that is only one way one can act... I'm just not sure if that's what the findings will be in the end of not...

And since we can't know till we get there, I will always proceed and act as if the decision is actually always, (or most of the time), always mine regardless... Cause that is the only way one can go about it...

I just don't know what it will turn out to be in the end...

Talking about in reference to, or in relation to, God the Father, (the true Father) and not God the Son (Our God)... His (Our God's) path may have been all predetermined by God the Father (His Father and our true Father) as well... And as might be the case with us, or some of us, or some, if not all of us/ours (paths)...

We just don't know, so have to proceed as if we do have (a) or make many choices that we make of our own free will...

God Bless!

I understand how you think brother. I think the proof of free will is in what I said: You will live more Godly lives if you believe in free will. Isn't that proof enough?

Neogaia777 · May 3, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
When Jesus (our God) said to his/our true Father, "Father not my will, but your will" (be done in and with me/us/him...

It means that it must be possible to a thing "outside" God, the true Father's will, or "stray" from the true Father's predestined path for us... And, that, the real trick is/was using your own will to stay on that predestined, predetermined path for us, or the true Father's will for you/us/him...

God Bless!

So, our will does seem to be involved, since it's possible to do a thing outside God's will with our own will... But, even those things done "outside" his individual will for us, (that is: each with and by our own individual will), he works out for the greater good, a better greater good collective will, in the end, or his good collective will for us...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · May 3, 2018

zoidar said:
I understand how you think brother. I think the proof of free will is in what I said: You will live more Godly lives if you believe in free will. Isn't that proof enough?

That may be why he will not tell us on this, till we get to meet him in the afterlife or something...

What will he show us about this then, IDK...?

RDKirk · May 3, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
When Jesus (our God) said to his/our true Father, "Father not my will, but your will" (be done in and with me/us/him...

It means that it must be possible to a thing "outside" God, the true Father's will, or "stray" from the true Father's predestined path for us... And, that, the real trick is/was using your own will to stay on that predestined, predetermined path for us, or the true Father's will for you/us/him...

God Bless!

"Not my will, but thine" does not mean Jesus decided to coordinate His will with that of the Father's.

He did not say, "I will to do Your will."

He said, "Not my will." He subsumed His own will, disregarded it, placed it aside, and put on the mind of the Father so that the Father's will dominated His actions.

Neogaia777 · May 3, 2018

RDKirk said:
"Not my will, but thine" does not mean Jesus decided to coordinate His will with that of the Father's.

He did not say, "I will to do Your will."

He said, "Not my will." He subsumed His own will, disregarded it, placed it aside, and put on the mind of the Father so that the Father's will dominated His actions.

He said that in the Garden of Gethsemane when/where he was under extreme pressure/great temptation to exert his own will to get out of doing the/his Father's will, and so, took that will (of his own) and his "urge" or the pull of his own will, to get out of the Father's will, and "forced it to submit" to continuing to do only the Father's will no matter what, instead of his own will that could have got him out of it, or out of doing the/his Father's will...

Right...?

God Bless!

John tower · May 3, 2018

Soul-searching said:
To me either there is free will or there is not. I believe in the free will, God does not control my life, he is there if i ask for guidance. other than that i am on my own. I need to be on my own to learn, and this life is for learning, it is not about someone holding my hand guiding me. What would i learn from that?? It is about us making mistakes, by the choises we freely make, only by that we can learn and understand the difference in acting on our own. That is just what i think. Some people think they have no control of their lives, and others that they do.

Heb 12(2), Col 1(16)

Soul-searching · May 3, 2018

John tower said:
Heb 12(2), Col 1(16)

Thank you! But those verses say nothing to me about the free will or lack of...

Ron Gurley · May 3, 2018

God wants Man to submit his "free will" to the perfect will of God.

Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

LoveofTruth · Jun 6, 2018

John tower said:
Heb 12(2), Col 1(16)

Freewill is in the bible. Here are just a few verses to prove that . I am speaking about the word "freewill". Not defining the meaning or commenting on the text, just showing that when you say there is no freewill in the bible you are 100 percent wrong. Defining the meanings is another issue. You will see that they refer to different aspects and issues.

This is the first starting point. You have to admit that there is freewill in the bible. Then you can look at the other verses about our will. I am not saying, nor is any true believer that we can will our own salvation. We receive the free gift given John 1, and whosoever will can come to Jesus.

Leviticus 22:18

Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the Lord for a burnt offering;

Leviticus 22:21

And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the Lord to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.

Leviticus 22:23

Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.

Leviticus 23:38

Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord.

Numbers 15:3

And will make an offering by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the Lord, of the herd or of the flock:

Numbers 29:39

These things ye shall do unto the Lord in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.

Deuteronomy 12:6

And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:

Deuteronomy 12:17

Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:

Deuteronomy 16:10

And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the Lord thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give unto the Lord thy God, according as the Lord thy God hath blessed thee:

Deuteronomy 23:23

That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the Lord thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

2 Chronicles 31:14

And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, was over the freewill offerings of God, to distribute the oblations of the Lord, and the most holy things.

Ezra 1:4

And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.

Ezra 3:5

And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the Lord that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the Lord.

Ezra 7:13

I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

Ezra 7:16

And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which is in Jerusalem:

Ezra 8:28

And I said unto them, Ye are holy unto the Lord; the vessels are holy also; and the silver and the gold are a freewill offering unto the Lord God of your fathers.

Psalm 119:108
Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O Lord, and teach me thy judgments."

A few more verses that must be seen and they cannot be denied, no matter what other verses you may try to use. This is God speaking here,

"...Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. 4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not."(Isaiah 66:3,4 KJV)

and

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

and

"John 1:12-13 - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:"This refutes your doctrine that God first gives the power then they are forced to receive God. They must first receive him then he gives the power.

1 Corinthians 9:17
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me."

1 Corinthians 7:36
"But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry."

1 Corinthians 7:37
"Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well."

1 Corinthians 7:39
"The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord."

Neogaia777 · Jun 6, 2018

If our will, of our own free will, becomes submitted to God's will, is it still our will, or was it really (of) our own free will all along, or was it predetermined or predestined by God for us to submit and turn over our free will, of our own free will, to his will, and if it is, or was, is or if it was, was it then, still our (own) free will, or was it our will all along, or was it God's will, and God's will all along...?

God Bless!

Strong in Him · Jun 7, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
If our will, of our own free will, becomes submitted to God's will, is it still our will,

If we choose to submit to God then we are saying that we will willingly do what he asks us to do.
We may struggle, or disobey, if we find he is asking us to do something which seems hard/dangerous, but if we are truly submitted to God then we will obey - and want to. This is all part of what it means to acknowledge Jesus as LORD of our life.

Neogaia777 said:
or was it predetermined or predestined by God for us to submit and turn over our free will, of our own free will, to his will,

No; if God wanted to force us to do anything, he would have done it with Adam and Eve and programmed them so that they could not disobey and had no choice but to obey him.

God wants people who will love, worship, follow and trust him - not because they have no choice or from fear - but because they know who he is and what he has done for them, love him, know that there are other beliefs and alternatives and yet choose to follow, submit and worship him.

Moses, Joshua, Elijah and the prophets said to the people "choose who you will serve; the Lord who brought you from Egypt, or someone else". Jesus did not force people to follow him.

Neogaia777 · Jun 7, 2018

See here please:

There is "one", (a God) that could predict and know everything from beginning to end...?

God Bless!

Strong in Him · Jun 7, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
See here please:

There is "one", (a God) that could predict and know everything from beginning to end...?

Was that addressed to me?

God knows everything about us, Psalm 139, and knows what we will do and be. That doesn't mean we aren't able to choose; he knows the choices we will make, the outcome of those choices and whether they lead to other choices/actions.
We still have the ability to decide.
Jesus said "seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened"; you knock because you want to be let in, and you look for something because you want to find/have it. That shows desire and intent.
Jesus to us to choose the narrow way which leads to life, he allowed the rich young ruler, and other disciples, to walk away from him because they didn't like what he said.
God didn't put barbed wire around the tree in the Garden, nor did he force feed Adam with the fruit.

Inkfingers · Jun 7, 2018

John tower said:
I really don't understand the mindset of those who continually fight for their own Free Will! Is there something wrong with God being in absolute control of all things , including ourselves ?

If they fight hard for their free will its because God makes them do so (as God is in absolute control of all things). For the same reason that God hardened the heart of Pharaoh.

Neogaia777 · Jun 7, 2018

Strong in Him said:
Was that addressed to me?

God knows everything about us, Psalm 139, and knows what we will do and be. That doesn't mean we aren't able to choose; he knows the choices we will make, the outcome of those choices and whether they lead to other choices/actions.
We still have the ability to decide.
Jesus said "seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened"; you knock because you want to be let in, and you look for something because you want to find/have it. That shows desire and intent.
Jesus to us to choose the narrow way which leads to life, he allowed the rich young ruler, and other disciples, to walk away from him because they didn't like what he said.
God didn't put barbed wire around the tree in the Garden, nor did he force feed Adam with the fruit.

It was addressed to everyone in this thread, But I'll talk with you if you want...

Something caused you to seek and knock, and God (the Father) knows it (what it is that caused it or made you choose to seek and knock) and caused it a long long time ago...

And Adam and Eve were obeying God, the Father when they chose to eat the fruit and fell, but they disobeyed the Son, but even the Son is in and is a part of the Father's plan and really doesn't and did not have his own free will either...

God the Son, our God is part of the Father's program or equation as well...

God Bless!

Why do People Fight so hard for Their Own Free Will ?

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