What is lukewarm?

The Word of God never said that He desires hot/cold; He said He would vomit you out of His mouth if you are indifferent to the Most High God. And, this goes beyond atheism; this is about those who claim to be for the Most High God, yet their fervour Him is abysmal. He is making a point that the Church was neither righteous nor full antichristian - which is worse, because they become active stumbling blocks for other believers.

It is about allegiance, and the perpetuity of faith in the Word of God.

Yes, He is saying buy "gold" from me - because His treasures are of Heaven. This is a companion verse to when He says store up your treasures in heaven.

Yes, He wants you to get your "clothes" from Him - because His raiment is one made of light. It is pure, and can only attach to purity.

No, The Word of God is not literally talking about gold and clothes, but He is making critique on earthly possessions vs. heavenly treasure. The very fact that the church would focus on gold and finery is because their heart-allegiance to the Most High God is apathetic. Like He said in v19, He rebukes those He loves. He wouldn't waste time telling them about their ridiculous allegiance and devotion to the Most High God if He wasn't trying to correct them out of love.

DamianWarS said:

Refined gold in fire is a response from the earthly riches and strength of the city mentioned in v17, it is not a shout out to the hot of v15 and v16 which would be silly. Jesus is urging the city to buy his gold refined in fire not to become the gold... or the fire. I'm a little confused on how you thing this is connected, refined gold in fire is simply more pure but you don't buy it on fire you buy it cooled down, the actual gold is not hot.

Zealousness is not the "problem" of the city it is a word used to encourage the believers to seek repentance. Repentance of what? Not lack of zeal but this "I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing" philosophy found in v17 that has corrupted the city. It is not lack of zeal that Christ identifies as the problem but this lost dependence with God and self glorification that is the problem.

everyone seems to have a lot of liberty inserting extra information into the text. The text says Jesus desires hot/cold and does not desire lukewarm. Nothing more qualifies these metaphors to tell us what they are outside of v17 and v18. The problem is people allow this extra information to govern how they interpret the entire passage and their walk away is "don't be wishy washy". Jesus isn't telling the city to not be wishy-washy he is telling them to buy their riches from him; we shouldn't add a problem that is never presented in the text.

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you are thinking too hard, go simple, get the heart of the passage here

think about the process of gold being refined, you refine it by removing its impurities, he mentioned this for a reason and didn't just say normal gold. it points towards a condition. same as him using the word zealous when asking them to repent, it points towards them not having zeal, this word is implying a repentance that pushes them to zealousness. also, you are neither hot nor cold, he makes a distinction and goes as far as to say he wishes they be either hot or cold, in other words, hot or cold is better than where they are at. also, the vomiting is an example further pointing towards him speaking of his own, as vomit comes from inside of the body, not outside. he's vomiting something he already has in him. he also equates their works in this context when he says i know thy works, you are neither hot nor cold. cold works and hot works. cold and hot are opposites, two extremes. lukewarm is a mixture of these two extremes creating a different state other than hot or cold. the context is the church, the letter is not to unbelievers...you see it yet?

Senkaku said:

you are thinking too hard, go simple, get the heart of the passage here

think about the process of gold being refined, you refine it by removing its impurities, he mentioned this for a reason and didn't just say normal gold. it points towards a condition. same as him using the word zealous when asking them to repent, it points towards them not having zeal, this word is implying a repentance that pushes them to zealousness. also, you are neither hot nor cold, he makes a distinction and goes as far as to say he wishes they be either hot or cold, in other words, hot or cold is better than where they are at. also, the vomiting is an example further pointing towards him speaking of his own, as vomit comes from inside of the body, not outside. he's vomiting something he already has in him. he also equates their works in this context when he says i know thy works, you are neither hot nor cold. cold works and hot works. cold and hot are opposites, two extremes. lukewarm is a mixture of these two extremes creating a different state other than hot or cold. the context is the church, the letter is not to unbelievers...you see it yet?

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You are correct. I would only add that I think another word for being lukewarm is double-minded which also refers to a mixture. James 1:7-8 states For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. And further in 4:8 we read Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded. In context, the double-minded believer who is called a sinner is to submit to God, resist the devil, cleanse his hands and purify his heart in order to restore his relationship with God. The same is true for the lukewarm believer who is oblivious to his need for repentance and instead thinks he is still secure in Christ. In Rev 3:21 salvation is only promised to the believer who overcomes which does not include someone who remains a lukewarm believer.

DamianWarS said:

Rev 3:16 for those who missed the memo.

When I read the text I see warm/cold water contrasted with lukewarm. Warm/cold being good and desirable and lukewarm being bad and undesirable.

What I don't see is the temperature of water a scale of our passion, cold being no belief, lukewarm wishy-washy and hot being "on fire for Jesus".

Do we really want to believe that God desires unbelief over the struggling Christian? What a horrible picture of God that reveals. Be perfect or don't come at all. Completely counter-gospel.

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Haven't read the rest of the thread, so kind of a blind post.

I think interpreting the hot/cold thing as "passion" misses the point of what is being said. Both hot water and cold water are useful, tepid, lukewarm water however is disgusting and useless. Cold, refreshing water is good to drink, and hot water can be used to cook; both are palatable. Lukewarm water, however, is useless.

I'm a coffee drinker, so I might put it into those terms. I like a nice hot cup of joe on a cool morning. I also like an ice cold coffee on a hot summer day. So either hot or cold, it's palatable, enjoyable. but let a cup of hot coffee cool to room temperature, or an ice coffee warm up to room temperature and it becomes absolutely horrid, if I took a sip of lukewarm coffee I'd immediately spit it out.

Lukewarm means it has become useless and unpalatable.

-CryptoLutheran

DamianWarS said:

I drink a lot of coffee. I love hot coffee. I love iced coffee. but when I take a sip of coffee that has been left out for a while and it has become lukewarm I literally want to spit it out and often I do.

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Turns out I really should have read this thread before posting. My bad.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Haven't read the rest of the thread, so kind of a blind post.

I think interpreting the hot/cold thing as "passion" misses the point of what is being said. Both hot water and cold water are useful, tepid, lukewarm water however is disgusting and useless. Cold, refreshing water is good to drink, and hot water can be used to cook; both are palatable. Lukewarm water, however, is useless.

I'm a coffee drinker, so I might put it into those terms. I like a nice hot cup of joe on a cool morning. I also like an ice cold coffee on a hot summer day. So either hot or cold, it's palatable, enjoyable. but let a cup of hot coffee cool to room temperature, or an ice coffee warm up to room temperature and it becomes absolutely horrid, if I took a sip of lukewarm coffee I'd immediately spit it out.

Lukewarm means it has become useless and unpalatable.

-CryptoLutheran

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Apparently and allegedly, this is incorrect. Several people have said this same thing.

ViaCrucis said:

Haven't read the rest of the thread, so kind of a blind post.

I think interpreting the hot/cold thing as "passion" misses the point of what is being said. Both hot water and cold water are useful, tepid, lukewarm water however is disgusting and useless. Cold, refreshing water is good to drink, and hot water can be used to cook; both are palatable. Lukewarm water, however, is useless.

I'm a coffee drinker, so I might put it into those terms. I like a nice hot cup of joe on a cool morning. I also like an ice cold coffee on a hot summer day. So either hot or cold, it's palatable, enjoyable. but let a cup of hot coffee cool to room temperature, or an ice coffee warm up to room temperature and it becomes absolutely horrid, if I took a sip of lukewarm coffee I'd immediately spit it out.

Lukewarm means it has become useless and unpalatable.

-CryptoLutheran

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The entire metaphor is related to something taken in the mouth to be swallowed, but because it is lukewarm, it's quickly spat out of the mouth.

What I pointed out earlier is that I learned on my first deployment to a Third World country, food that has been kept on the fire is edible, food that has been kept on ice is edible, but food that has been left at room temperature will be spoiled and deadly.

The point of this metaphor is not to be the same as the surrounding world, but distinctly peculiar.

DamianWarS said:

People fight against the text and superimpose another meaning, trying exhaustively to squeeze it out making words that were never there to begin with.

I think this thread has gone on long enough, my thoughts remain unchanged on the subject, but apparently opposing thoughts also are unchanged. The thing is it's not really a doctrinal issue and both sides have good values in them. I'm at a point for this thread that I will call it a day.

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I think this is a good conclusion you have come to, although I have to disagree about it not being an issue of the spirit. Nevertheless, if we are both on the same Spirit team, there is no use in causing a stumbling block for EACH OTHER. We can always reconcile this topic some other time.

Its a fact that someone cold is far easier to reach then someone WARM. And hot is ALL IN for Him. I want to point out and I didnt read every post here but..Luke warm does not mean lost forever. That is not written in the word of God. He said He will. It has NOT happen. If we keep reading those He loves He?

And Christ never came up with riding the fence.. being in the center. Thats from Satan. You serve ONE or the other period. There is no WARM. You serve Christ or you dont. We follow Him or we dont. This is why we pray always about everything. We keep our mind on Him always. We love all forgive all as He treats us and always repent do a 180 and dust off and keep going!

yeah.. warm is NOT the place I would want to me.. not in days like this

DamianWarS said:

Rev 3:16 for those who missed the memo.

When I read the text I see warm/cold water contrasted with lukewarm. Warm/cold being good and desirable and lukewarm being bad and undesirable.

What I don't see is the temperature of water a scale of our passion, cold being no belief, lukewarm wishy-washy and hot being "on fire for Jesus".

Do we really want to believe that God desires unbelief over the struggling Christian? What a horrible picture of God that reveals. Be perfect or don't come at all. Completely counter-gospel.

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Mountainmanbob said:

Lukewarm

Too lazy to repent.

I can always do that later I'm kind of enjoying my sin right now.
MB

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I guess that is one way of putting is according to and a lot easier.....Or fence sitting......
Romans 12:
9 Love must be sincere. Detest what is evil; cling to what is good.
10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Outdo yourselves in honoring one another.
11 Do not be slothful in zeal/zeonteV<2204>, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord

Reve 3:
15 I have known thy works, that neither cold art thou nor hot/zestoV<2200> ; I would thou wert cold or hot/zestoV<2200> .
16 So then, because thou art luke-warm, and neither cold nor hot/zestos<2200>, I will vomit thee out of my mouth:

2200. zestos dzes-tos' from 2204; boiled, i.e. (by implication) calid (figuratively, fervent):--hot.
2204. zeo dzeh'-o a primary verb; to be hot (boil, of liquids; or glow, of solids), i.e. (figuratively) be fervid (earnest):--be fervent.

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,.... A lukewarm professor is one that serves God and mammon; that halts between two opinions, and knows not what religion is best, and cares little for any, yet keeps in a round of duty, though indifferent to it, and contents himself with it; and is un concerned about the life and power of godliness, and takes up with the external form of it; and has no thought about the glory of God, the interest of Christ and truth; and this was too much the case of this church, at least of a great number of its members; wherefore it was very loathsome to Christ, hence he threatens:

I will spew thee out of my mouth; this shows how nauseous lukewarmness is to Christ, insomuch that on account of it he would not own and acknowledge her as his; but even cast her out, unchurch her, and have no more any such imperfect church state upon earth, as he afterwards never will, this is the last; nor is there any church state, or any remains of one in Laodicea; it is indeed quite uninhabited.





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Kaon said:

Lukewarm persons are in constant flux of allegiance. No one should want that type of wishy-washy mate on their team - wouldn't you agree?

Lukewarmness in any relationship means the death of that relationship - when someone is underwhelmingly invested in the other, and is susceptible to corruption/betrayal. We have to choose this day who we will serve. Lots of people have other gods they indulge (maybe without knowing,) and that contributes greatly to their lukewarmness.

It would be better to be consistently evil, because at least you are consistent.

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I wholeheartedly disagree with that idea. I think that being moderate in your behavior is better than being at the negative extreme of a behavior.

Lucian Hodoboc said:

I wholeheartedly disagree with that idea. I think that being moderate in your behavior is better than being at the negative extreme of a behavior.

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Ok.

brinny said:

I dunno, He took it seriously enough to shed his blood and die so there would be an escape from this unGodly place for whomever would accept the gift of His costly grace and repent and be forgiven.

This is the entire point of the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.

Bottom line: it's a "warning".

A dire and real one.

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Which of the theories for the atonement do you subscribe to?

Atonement in Christianity - Wikipedia

Lucian Hodoboc said:

Which of the theories for the atonement do you subscribe to?

Atonement in Christianity - Wikipedia

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"Theories"?

Lucian Hodoboc said:

I wholeheartedly disagree with that idea. I think that being moderate in your behavior is better than being at the negative extreme of a behavior.

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I do think it is better morally, but not spiritually.

Humans don't really know extremism in human things well...

brinny said:

"Theories"?

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Yes. There are several theories about why Christ died. I posted a link to a Wikipedia article above if you're not familiar with them.

Why did Christ have to die? I'm gonna guess that your answer will be "for our sins", but what do you mean by that? If Jesus was a random paid to someone, who was He paid as a random to?

Lucian Hodoboc said:

Yes. There are several theories about why Christ died. I posted a link to a Wikipedia article above if you're not familiar with them.

Why did Christ have to die? I'm gonna guess that your answer will be "for our sins", but what do you mean by that? If Jesus was a random paid to someone, who was He paid as a random to?

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Christ dying had nothing to do with "theories", my friend.

Just on a side note, would you mind defining "theories" or "theory" for me?

(and do you mean "ransom"? )

Lucian Hodoboc said:

Yes. There are several theories about why Christ died. I posted a link to a Wikipedia article above if you're not familiar with them.

Why did Christ have to die? I'm gonna guess that your answer will be "for our sins", but what do you mean by that? If Jesus was a random paid to someone, who was He paid as a random to?

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His Father.