Should people living in sin be rejected from the church

Grip Docility said:

Romans 4 and Ephesians 2:8-9 back me up.

As for Loving others being good works and your Matthew quote, Amen.

As for suggesting the good works save us, that’s a big no.

“Faith without Love is dead”, though. Can we shake hands and say Amen to that?

1 Corinthians 13 can be our middle ground of agreement past any potential gnat straining we could generate.

Is that enough to find some middle ground?

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Jesus alone saves us. When we die, He alone judges who is worthy to inherit eternal life.

What makes a person worthy to inherit/enter eternal life?

Is it faith alone that makes us worthy to inherit eternal life?
No, faith alone will not make us worthy to inherit eternal life. Our faith and our faithfulness/obedience to God's commandments until death is what makes us worthy to inherit/enter eternal life.

In the following Scripture passage, Jesus explains how a person first becomes a Christian, how a Christian later falls away from the faith through disobedience to God's commandments, and how a Christian who fails to do the good works that God has prepared for him to do is also unfaithful. Jesus also explains what a good Christian does and why he will inherit/enter eternal life.


Faith plus good works make us worthy to inherit/enter eternal life.


A person's belief in Jesus is not true belief unless continued obedience accompanies his belief in Jesus.

Faith alone (the belief that Jesus will save us simply because we accepted Him as our Lord and Savior) will not make us worthy to inherit/enter eternal life. Continued belief/faith in Jesus Christ and obedience to God's commandments until we die is what will make us worthy to inherit/enter eternal life.

Jan001 said:

Jesus alone saves us. When we die, He alone judges who is worthy to inherit eternal life.

What makes a person worthy to inherit/enter eternal life?

Is it faith alone that makes us worthy to inherit eternal life?
No, faith alone will not make us worthy to inherit eternal life. Our faith and our faithfulness/obedience to God's commandments until death is what makes us worthy to inherit/enter eternal life.

In the following Scripture passage, Jesus explains how a person first becomes a Christian, how a Christian later falls away from the faith through disobedience to God's commandments, and how a Christian who fails to do the good works that God has prepared for him to do is also unfaithful. Jesus also explains what a good Christian does and why he will inherit/enter eternal life.

Matthew 13:18-23
18 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path.

This person hears the Word. He does not understand the Word. He does not ask anyone to help him to understand what has been sown in his heart. He prefers the lure of the world and its pleasures. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9​

20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.

This person hears the Word, believes it, repents, and becomes a Christian. Then later when he is challenged with illness, job loss, family problems, etc., or persecution from unbelievers, he stops believing; he falls away from the faith through his own disobedience. True belief/faith is continued obedience to God's commandments. Luke 8:13 Revelation 2:10
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22 As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

This person hears the Word, believes it, repents, and becomes a Christian. Then later he fails to love his neighbor as himself because his self-love dictates that he spend all his time and money on himself and/or his immediate family. Matthew 19:23, James 4:4, Revelation 3:15-18
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23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.” rsv

This person hears the Word, believes it, repents, and becomes a Christian. He obeys God's commandments and shows his love for God by loving his neighbors as himself. This person continually helps his neighbors to the best of his ability. He is a faithful Christians until his death and this is why he will be approved to inherit/enter eternal life. Titus 2:11-13, Romans 12:1-3
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Faith plus good works make us worthy to inherit/enter eternal life.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. rsv​

A person's belief in Jesus is not true belief unless continued obedience accompanies his belief in Jesus.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment. rsv

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Faith alone (the belief that Jesus will save us simply because we accepted Him as our Lord and Savior) will not make us worthy to inherit/enter eternal life. Continued belief/faith in Jesus Christ and obedience to God's commandments until we die is what will make us worthy to inherit/enter eternal life.

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You who believe in Him have passed over judgment and will inherit eternal life.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

He says truly twice. There is no judgment for the believer.

You’re playing a deadly game by denouncing His work as sufficient!

Concerned!!!

sunlover1 said:

No I'm not claiming my sin is better than someone else's.
I'm claiming that I don't "live in sin"
HUGE difference.

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No. You are "living in sin". You are refusing to love your neighbour and by this refusal breaking the commandments. And this is willful, deliberate and unrepented sin.

Jon Osterman said:

No. You are "living in sin". You are refusing to love your neighbour and by this refusal breaking the commandments. And this is willful, deliberate and unrepented sin.

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What?!? Love everyone! Well, I Never! Taint myself with the filth of Vermin!

Whatever are you talking about?

Kenny'sID said:

2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 English Standard Version (ESV)
11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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Taking 1 passage and building a doctrine over it is ERROR.

It is on the testimony of 2 or more that a matter is established.

Citing this scripture as a support for your argument is the epitome of taking things completely out of context.

This is PROPHETIC regarding the coming of the Anti Christ. This is made clear by the preceding verse found in verse 1-10!!! Instead, you distort and twist it to try and force it to support your own version of righteousness which, by the way, is but FILTHY RAGS

BukiRob said:

Taking 1 passage and building a doctrine over it is ERROR.

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Ok, I'll work with you...first. no error at all, but tell me exactly what was distorted, and how, then we can get into the scripture and see if it holds water. Fair enough?

BukiRob said:

It is on the testimony of 2 or more that a matter is established.

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The testimony of 2? Where is your other testimony? See the "winner" underneath my post. I personally would call that at least an agreement....so there ya' go.

BukiRob said:

Citing this scripture as a support for your argument is the epitome of taking things completely out of context.

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BukiRob said:

This is PROPHETIC regarding the coming of the Anti Christ. This is made clear by the preceding verse found in verse 1-10!!! Instead, you distort and twist it to try and force it to support your own version of righteousness which, by the way, is but FILTHY RAGS

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Now tell me more about the "Filthy Rag" Doctrine you are building there? But before you do, and you continue to use the comment as a false means to put others in their place others/make whatever point you *think* you're making, read the following. It says all I want to say about your taking the "Filthy Rag thing out of context and twisting it so you can use it wrongly for selfish reasons.

It's somewhat lengthy but I assure you, it will do some of you some good, that is if you have interest in the truth.

"Why are all of our righteous acts considered filthy rags?"

Answer: “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away” (Isaiah 64:6). This passage is often used as a proof text to condemn all our acts of goodness as nothing more than “filthy rags” in the eyes of God. The context of this passage is referring specifically to the Israelites in Isaiah’s time (760—670 B.C.) who had strayed from God. Isaiah was writing concerning his nation and their hypocrisy. Yet he includes himself in the description, saying “we” and “our.” Isaiah was redeemed and set apart as a prophet of God, yet he saw himself as part of a group that was utterly sinful. The doctrine of total depravity is taught clearly elsewhere in Scripture (e.g., Ephesians 2:1–5), and the illustration of Isaiah 64:6 could rightly be applied to the whole world, especially given Isaiah's inclusion of himself in the description.

The term “filthy rags” is quite strong. The word filthy is a translation of the Hebrew word iddah, which literally means “the bodily fluids from a woman’s menstrual cycle.” The word rags is a translation of begged, meaning “a rag or garment.” Therefore, these “righteous acts” are considered by God as repugnant as a soiled feminine hygiene product.

As Isaiah wrote this, the Israelites had been the recipients of numerous miraculous blessings from God. Yet they had turned their backs on Him by worshipping false gods (Isaiah 42:17), making sacrifices and burning incense on strange altars (Isaiah 65:3–5). Isaiah had even called Jerusalem a harlot and compared it to Sodom (Isaiah 3:9). These people had an illusion of their own self-righteousness. Yet God did not esteem their acts of righteousness as anything but “polluted garments” or “filthy rags.” Their apostasy, or falling away from the law of God, had rendered their righteous works totally unclean. “Like the wind, [their] sins were sweeping them away” (Isaiah 64:6). Martin Luther said, “The most damnable and pernicious heresy that has ever plagued the mind of man is that somehow he can make himself good enough to deserve to live forever with an all-holy God.”

Though self-righteousness is condemned throughout the Bible (Ezekiel 33:13; Romans 3:27; Titus 3:5), we are, in fact, commanded to do good works. Paul explained that we cannot do anything to save ourselves, but our salvation comes only as a result of God’s grace (Ephesians 2:8–9). Then he proclaimed that “we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them” (Ephesians 2:10; see also 2 Corinthians 3:5).

Our salvation is not the result of any of our efforts, abilities, intelligent choices, personal characteristics, or acts of service we may perform. However, as believers, we are “created in Christ Jesus for good works”—to help and serve others. While there is nothing we can do to earn our salvation, God’s intention is that our salvation will result in acts of service. We are saved not merely for our own benefit but to serve Christ and build up the church (Ephesians 4:12). This reconciles the seeming conflict between faith and works. Our righteous acts do not produce salvation but are, in fact, evidence of our salvation (James 1:22; 2:14–26).

In the end, we must recognize that even our righteous acts come as a result of God within us, not of ourselves. On our own, our “righteousness” is simply self-righteousness, and vain, hypocritical religion produces nothing more than “filthy rags.”

BNR32FAN said:

I was in a discussion today and was shocked to hear that some people think that people who are living in sin should not be allowed to attend their church. This truly breaks my heart to hear this. The discussion was using an example of two people who are living together but aren’t married. What are your thoughts?

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It seems to me that many who profess Christ think they are doing God The Father a favor. Many are called but few are chosen. True faith is demonstrated by obedience to the commandments given by Christ. Based on God’s Word in The New Testament, Christ repeatedly instructs us to obey. Without Christ living within you, it is impossible to live an obedient life. The true Christian lives in obedience from within. Someone who is living in a constant state of sinful behavior is obviously not yet been born again. The Word of God is very clear about what to do and how to handle a wayward member of the church. With a little effort, you can find the Scripture in The New Testament that pertains to how to handle such situations. None of us are perfect and without sin. However, there is a difference between an inadvertent sin and willful sin. When the elders of the church go to see the member of their church who is living in a constant state of sin, they should be speaking to the offender in a state of Perfect Love with the hope of getting the offending member back on track. I am not the judge and I thank God The Father often for that. In the world today, living together out of wedlock seems to be the norm and is taken for granted in the media. I truly pray that God’s Word is followed if and when the elders of the church in question go to visit the offending parties.

Grip Docility said:

You who believe in Him have passed over judgment and will inherit eternal life.

John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

He says truly twice. There is no judgment for the believer.

You’re playing a deadly game by denouncing His work as sufficient!

Concerned!!!

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What exactly is a believer? Is it a person who simply believes that Jesus will save him? Or is it a person who proves himself to be a believer by his doing what Jesus told/commanded him to do?

What does Jesus command His people to do if they desire to enter/inherit eternal life?

Jesus is very clear: Obey/keep MY commandments if you want to enter/inherit eternal life.
I am concerned that you believe that you do not have to keep/obey God's commandments in order to enter/inherit eternal life. It seems to me that you do not know what it means to be a believer.

Scripture states that the person who claims to be a believer and does not obey God's commandments is not a believer. This person is a liar.


A person who does not obey God's/Jesus's commandments is not a true believer and so he will not enter/inherit eternal life. Instead, he will enter/inherit God's wrath.


Scriptures warns all of us:


What happens to all these false Christians/liars?

Jan001 said:

What exactly is a believer? Is it a person who simply believes that Jesus will save him? Or is it a person who proves himself to be a believer by his doing what Jesus told/commanded him to do?

What does Jesus command His people to do if they desire to enter/inherit eternal life?

Matthew 19:16-19
And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” rsv

Luke 6:46
“Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you? rsv
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Jesus is very clear: Obey/keep MY commandments if you want to enter/inherit eternal life.

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I am concerned that you believe that you do not have to keep/obey God's commandments in order to enter/inherit eternal life. It seems to me that you do not know what it means to be a believer.

Scripture states that the person who claims to be a believer and does not obey God's commandments is not a believer. This person is a liar.

1 John 2:4
He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him; rsv

Ephesians 5:5-7
Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not associate with them, rsv​

A person who does not obey God's/Jesus's commandments is not a true believer and so he will not enter/inherit eternal life. Instead, he will enter/inherit God's wrath.


Scriptures warns all of us:

James 1:22
But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. rsv​

What happens to all these false Christians/liars?

Revelation 21:8
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”

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Good luck saving yourself. I’m done arguing the point. I still screw up. That’s called Honesty and 1 John 1:8.

Notice “Liars” are in that list you sanctimoniously quoted?

Do you still screw up?

1 John 1:8

Now for the flip side;

Do you place those deeds into the Love your neighbor category, while not focusing on the actual Law of Moses?

Is that what you mean?

Sibling, I’m pretty brief with my replies most of the time and I think I may be being hard on you, when I may not understand you correctly.

I really don’t want to be so harsh in my replies to you. Please forgive me and help me understand your perspective in simple words that I won’t misunderstand.

Jon Osterman said:

No. You are "living in sin". You are refusing to love your neighbour and by this refusal breaking the commandments. And this is willful, deliberate and unrepented sin.

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I'm not refusing to love a neighbor, Where did you get this idea?

Grip Docility said:

Notice “Liars” are in that list you sanctimoniously quoted?

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She quoted Scripture that you want to rip out of the Bible
so you call her "sanctimonious"?
Sup with that!

sunlover1 said:

She quoted Scripture that you want to rip out of the Bible
so you call her "sanctimonious"?
Sup with that!

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If Mosaic Law based scripture was the measure, or even just the 10, that is incompatible with the contrast in Revelation, due to the new covenant.

I also allowed for clearification and asked for it.

I zeroed in on the Liar portion of the list that was dropped, because it demands honesty.

That New Wine has to be factored in on all of this and that was my point.

I also posted this, beneath the post and just changed my original reference to Brother, to sibling.

Now for the flip side;

Do you place those deeds into the Love your neighbor category, while not focusing on the actual Law of Moses?

Is that what you mean?

Sibling, I’m pretty brief with my replies most of the time and I think I may be being hard on you, when I may not understand you correctly.

I really don’t want to be so harsh in my replies to you. Please forgive me and help me understand your perspective in simple words that I won’t misunderstand

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Grip Docility said:

What?!? Love everyone! Well, I Never! Taint myself with the filth of Vermin!

Whatever are you talking about?

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There's that love stuff again...

sunlover1 said:

I'm not refusing to love a neighbor, Where did you get this idea?

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Excluding your neighbour from Christian community is not loving them.

Jon Osterman said:

Excluding your neighbour from Christian community is not loving them.

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Amen.

Jesus comes to Raging Sinners and then through Paul extends the Gospel to Raging Gentile Sinners. Jesus literally died ensuring all creation knows God desires all creation to Love.

Jesus is consistently seen with people the religious judge and oust.

And then, people say Jesus said oust people.

Jon Osterman said:

Excluding your neighbour from Christian community is not loving them.

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Uhhh, I didn't exclude anyone from anything lol
...you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
What do you think God meant by the above verse, btw?

Grip Docility said:

Amen.

Jesus comes to Raging Sinners and then through Paul extends the Gospel to Raging Gentile Sinners. Jesus literally died ensuring all creation knows God desires all creation to Love.

Jesus is consistently seen with people the religious judge and oust.

And then, people say Jesus said oust people.

Spoiler

To the religious, I always want to post this.

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...you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
What about you? what do you think God meant by the above verse?

FireDragon76 said:

Jesus warnings were primarily directed against religious leaders misusing religion, and I'd argue it's generally improper to apply them against two people who are cohabitating.

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This is pretty much twisting the Scriptures!
IJS

sunlover1 said:

This is pretty much twisting the Scriptures!
IJS

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No, it's looking at the context critically.

sunlover1 said:

...you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.

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That sounds nice until you consider if taken seriously, it would make for an empty church.