Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

Bible2+ said:

Not true, by itself. Otherwise, Jesus would have sin, for He is in a physical body (Luke 24:39). But He has no sin (Hebrews 4:15).

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What you fail to realize is WHY Jesus came by a virgin birth. It was in order to avoid the passage of the sin nature, which is through natural propagation. Rom 5 tells us all about it. When the Bible speaks of our "flesh" it is speaking of the sin nature in the body.

LoveofTruth said:

I see the labour there as to cease from our own works and walk in faith . But this trust in God's work in our heart and His work on the cross is not easy for the flesh.

But to abide in faith does not mean for a moment that we do not need to follow the Lord where he leads and to yield to the Spirit. We must yield to the Spirit and not to the flesh. Daily we die and the old man is not having dominion over us as we live in the new man. In this spiritual life we can manifest the life of Christ in our mortal bodies ( 2 Cor 4:10,11 I believe).

The effort to die to the flesh cannot be done in the flesh.

We cannot put to death the flesh by the flesh. It is a circumcision of the heart and to be crucified with Christ and risen with him. This is the power of the gospel as it relates to us. This is a deep inward reality to those who have been baptized into Christ and put on Christ. They that are Christ have crucified the flesh with its affections and lust and they do not live after the flesh and yield to it (as we abide in Christ through faith and continue in his word and commands in our heart). He that has suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin.

By the power of the Spirit, we mortify the deeds of the body and walk in the spirit. yes we do live and move and have activity in the flesh, but we do not yield to it and obey it. We have crucified the flesh as we are born anew in Christ.

I admit this is a very deep understanding, how the inward man is empowered and what relation God has working in us with our new man. But I do seek daily to live and understand this more to have the fellowship of his sufferings and to be perfect in Christ as he makes me perfect.

God comforts us in our daily afflictions and cross and we are risen with him to the newness of life. We have the comforter, the love of God shed abroad in our hearts the word sown, fellowship with God and the body of believers and edification from Christ through the body and many other spiritual blessings in Christ. He has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness.

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This effort to follow the Lord, which is to say, be led by the Spirit, to obey His commandments is called obedience.

The obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26 KJV

• the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

The principle or law of law requires obedience.

I will be glad to explain this principle from the scriptures if need be.


JLB

Bible2+ said:

Note that only elect people become believers (Acts 13:48b).

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Just can't pass this up.

First, it's obvious to everyone that there is no mention of election or even just choosing in this verse.

Second, There is no mention of God appointing or ordaining anyone.

Third, the verb is "tasso" which is not translated as either "appoint" or "ordain" in ANY of the other 7 uses in Scripture, and Luke used it 6 times himself.

Fourth, the tense of the verb is such that the voice can only be determined from the context. It's one of those "middle-passive" verb tense things.

But first, the basic meaning of "tasso" is:
NT:5021 tasso (tas'-so); a prolonged form of a primary verb (which latter appears only in certain tenses); to arrange in an orderly manner, i.e. assign or dispose (to a certain position or lot):

This has to do with arranging in an orderly manner. The word comes from military usage as in lining up troops. They are "assigned" to a certain position in the formation.

So, we could translate the word as "lined up", because that's the meaning of the word.

Now for some context. After his initial sermon, many encouraged Paul to come back and preach more. v.43 - When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

And this was the result when they showed up the next Sabbath: v.44 - On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.

So, it is clear there was a large crowd there to hear Paul, which made the unbelieving Jews jealous. v.45 - When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.

Then notice what said to them, in regard to eternal life in v.46 - Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

So, the context for what "tasso" means is found in all this.

So, what the Gentiles actually did was line themselves up to hear Paul.

If there's a crowd, and someone wants to hear the speaker, they have to "get in line".

So we know the voice is middle here. Not passive, as if someone else was doing the action.

Luke also used another Greek word 6 times: "horizo". This word IS translated as "ordain/appoint" and especially so when God is mentioned in the verse.

Acts 10:42
He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed [horizo] as judge of the living and the dead. NIV, NASB “ordained” NKJV, ASV, KJV

Luke 22:22
The Son of Man will go as it has been decreed, but woe to that man who betrays him."

NIV “determined” NKJV, KJV, NASB, ASV

Acts 2:23
This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose [horizo] and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross. NIV “determined purpose” NKJV “predeterminate plan” NASB, “determinate counsel” KJV, ASV

Acts 11:29
The disciples, each according to his ability, decided [horizo] to provide help for the brothers living in Judea.
NIV “determined” NKJV, KJV, NASB, ASV

Acts 17:26
From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined [horizo] the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.
NIV, NKJV, KJV, NASB, ASV

Acts 17:31
For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. [horizo] He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead." NIV, NASB “ordained” NKJV, KJV, ASV

Rom 1:4
and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared [horizo] with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord. NIV, NKJV, NASB, KJV, ASV

Heb 4:7
Therefore God again set [horizo] a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." NIV
“designates” NKJV “fixes” NASB “defines” ASV “limits” KJV

DaveM said:

it is sad the lack of love shown in a lot of these post,

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2 Tim 4:2 - Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

Titus 1:13 - This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

Titus 2:15 - These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

Rev 3:19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.

To rebuke false doctrine is an act of love.

BNR32FAN said:

Yes absolutely we can always come back to Christ but we can also always be cut off.

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So, salvation is like a yo-yo? Saved and then lost, saved and then lost?

bcbsr said:

Paul's point in Romans 4 was that Abraham was given the promise in Gen 15:5 and having believed it in Gen 15:6 he was reckoned righteous, there being no intervening working between the two verses, which proves his point that salvation is by faith alone apart from works.

James on the other hand is wrong. He views Gen 15:6 as merely a prophecy not fullfilled until over a decade later when Abraham did a work of faith. James was wrong on many counts, such as in Acts 15 when he decreed salvation was contingent upon whether or not one ate meat of strangled animals.

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Don't you believe that the book of James is inspired by the Holy Spirit?

FreeGrace2 said:

So, salvation is like a yo-yo? Saved and then lost, saved and then lost?

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It's not like you sway back and forward. You walk in the light, hopefully all life. There may be times in peoples life when they leave God to come back later. It's not that unusual.

FreeGrace2 said:

Some believe what Jesus said, and others don't believe what He said in John 10:28.

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27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


Some people actually study what Jesus said, rather than quoting half of what He said and build an entire false doctrine out of it.

Jesus gives eternal life to the sheep who meet the conditions He required.

• hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life

Can a born again Christian reject Jesus as Lord, and turn to the antichrist and confess him as Lord and still be saved?




JLB

JLB777 said:

Can a born again Christian reject Jesus as Lord, and turn to the antichrist and confess him as Lord and still be saved?

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I will answer this for those that believe in OSAS. They would say: "A born again Christian can't reject Jesus and will never turn to antichrist, but only those that never were fully born again."

Of course that is not true.

zoidar said:

I will answer this for those that believe in OSAS. They would say: "A born again Christian can't reject Jesus and will never turn to antichrist, but only those that never were fully born again."

Of course that is not true.

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Freegrace answered this question already in a one on one debate, in another Forum.

His answer was yes, a born again Christian continues to have eternal life, even if they take the mark of the beast and reject Jesus Christ as Lord.

He probably will continue to dodge this question over here because he is ashamed to answer the question, for good reason.



JLB

I asked:
"So, salvation is like a yo-yo? Saved and then lost, saved and then lost?"

zoidar said:

It's not like you sway back and forward. You walk in the light, hopefully all life. There may be times in peoples life when they leave God to come back later. It's not that unusual.

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My question was about losing salvation over and over, like a yo-yo goes up and down over and over.

If salvation can be lost once, does that mean it's over? No more chances?

And, if can be regained, on what basis, since the initial basis was by grace (Eph 2:8).

And the very idea that salvation can be lost is obviously on the basis of works, not grace.

So if it can be lost, is that it? No more chances, or whatever one wants to call it/

I said:
"Some believe what Jesus said, and others don't believe what He said in John 10:28."

JLB777 said:

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Some people actually study what Jesus said[

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And others, like yourself, don't actually study what Jesus said. At all.

rather than quoting half of what He said and build an entire false doctrine out of it.

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I personally would be highly embarrassed to keep making claims that I couldn't prove or back up with Scripture.

Jesus gives eternal life to the sheep who meet the conditions He required.

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Do you understand how conditions are introduced in a sentence? By the use of "if..." or "as long as...". Things like that.

So now, please point me to ANY word or words in v.27-28 where conditions have been introduced. But I know you can't do that. Because there aren't any conditions.

hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life

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Do you not understand the difference between a description and a condition??

v.27 is a description of His sheep. No conditions are mentioned. And no conditions are mentioned in v.28 either.

egg.on.face.

Can a born again Christian reject Jesus as Lord, and turn to the antichrist and confess him as Lord and still be saved?
JLB

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Here's how conditions are stated:

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and IF or AS LONG AS they keep hearing and following Me, they shall never perish."

That's how a condition is expressed. Which Jesus never did.

more.egg.on.face.

zoidar said:

I will answer this for those that believe in OSAS. They would say: "A born again Christian can't reject Jesus and will never turn to antichrist, but only those that never were fully born again."

Of course that is not true.

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I agree, as one who believes that Jesus clearly taught eternal security in John 10:28.

What you've described is a Calvinist, which I'm not.

JLB777 said:

Freegrace answered this question already in a one on one debate, in another Forum.

His answer was yes, a born again Christian continues to have eternal life, even if they take the mark of the beast and reject Jesus Christ as Lord.

He probably will continue to dodge this question over here because he is ashamed to answer the question, for good reason.
JLB

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How is giving my answer in the light of what Jesus taught dodging anything?

Your claims are preposterous, as is your view of loss of salvation.

Like some others, you are trying to FORCE conditions into John 10:27-28 where there are NONE at all.

John the apostle warned of either adding to taking away from what he wrote in Revelation.

Why would the same warning not apply to any other Scripture? Of course it would.

So, you have been warned. Stop trying to force conditions into a verse that don't exist.

But I know that's the only way you can excuse yourself by denying what Jesus said.

Bible2+ said:

Not every Christian fulfills Jude 1:4.

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Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
How on earth does this verse say a child of God can lose his salvation?

Bible2+ said:

He does, if it's without repentance (Hebrews 12:5-11).

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5 and ye have forgotten the exhortation which reasoneth with you as with sons, My son, regard not lightly the chastening of the Lord, Nor faint when thou art reproved of him; 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 It is for chastening that ye endure; God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is there whom [his] father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye are without chastening, whereof all have been made partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore, we had the fathers of our flesh to chasten us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they indeed for a few days chastened [us] as seemed good to them; but he for [our] profit, that [we] may be partakers of his holiness.

11 All chastening seemeth for the present to be not joyous but grievous; yet afterward it yieldeth peaceable fruit unto them that have been exercised thereby, [even the fruit] of righteousness.
There is nothing in this passage about being punished for sin.
This is about chastisement.
The Greek word for chastening is paidea.
Strong's No.:
G3809
Greek:
παιδεία
Transliteration:
paideia
Pronunciation:
pahee-di'-ah
Definition:
From G3811; tutorage that is education or training; by implication disciplinary correction: - chastening chastisement instruction nurture.
This same word is found in 2 Timothy 3:16 as instruction.
And is the word nurture in
Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
Care to try again?

Bible2+ said:

In the sense that we can't be righteous on our own (John 15:5).

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Of course we can't be righteous on our own. God made us righteous
2 Corinthians 5:21 Jesus was made to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
We are created in righteousness.
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
.

Bible2+ said:

Indeed, it is impossible for people to believe, or to continue to believe, all of the right things, apart from God's miraculous gift of Christian faith (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65, Hebrews 12:2), and some measure of His Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Also, it is impossible for people to perform, or to continue to perform, all of the right actions as Christians, apart from God making it possible for Christians to do that (Philippians 2:12-13, John 15:4-5). And it is impossible for people to repent, if a sin is committed, apart from God making it possible to repent (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18, Romans 8:13). So even if Christians continue to believe, act, and repent as they ought to, they must stay so humble that they never give themselves any credit or glory (Luke 17:10, Galatians 6:14; 1 Corinthians 1:29,31). But when Jesus Christ judges the Church at His future, Second Coming, He will give obedient Christians some credit (Matthew 25:21). Also, God does glorify Christians (Romans 8:30).

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You make it way to difficult to be saved. Unlike what God did.
saiah 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The wayof holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: thewayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

Bible2+ said:

Both, for Mary His mother is human (Luke 1:35).

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Of course Mary was human, but Jesus' Father was not. You really should figure out why that had to be.

Bible2+ said:

And the Gospel is that we can be ultimately saved from hell if we continue to believe this to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23), and continue to perform good works of faith to the end

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For those of you saying nobody in this thread says we aren't saved by good works, here is one that does.
Maybe you guys and gals could correct him.

bcbsr said:

Paul's point in Romans 4 was that Abraham was given the promise in Gen 15:5 and having believed it in Gen 15:6 he was reckoned righteous, there being no intervening working between the two verses, which proves his point that salvation is by faith alone apart from works.

James on the other hand is wrong. He views Gen 15:6 as merely a prophecy not fullfilled until over a decade later when Abraham did a work of faith. James was wrong on many counts, such as in Acts 15 when he decreed salvation was contingent upon whether or not one ate meat of strangled animals.

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James was not wrong when he wrote that book as it was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
But many people take the Book of James out of context or misinterpret what he is saying.

BNR32FAN said:

Yes absolutely we can always come back to Christ but we can also always be cut off.

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If it was possible to lose salvation, it would be impossible to get it back.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

BNR32FAN said:

You skipped this one.

Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 3:10

Does every tree not include believers? If believers don’t produce fruit they will be thrown into the lake of fire.

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Matthew 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Matthew 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Matthew 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
According to Jesus a good tree cannot bear bad fruit.

BNR32FAN said:

We are not defined by what we do? Jesus says this.

“Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:20

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Jesus said in John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.
See why they did such things, it was because of who there father was.
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
God made us righteous, now we can live righteous because of who our Father is.
What we do, does not define us, that is determine who we are.

BNR32FAN said:

Good I’m glad you totally agree that not only faith is required for salvation but also repentance of sin. Your halfway there. Now if you would only realize that you must produce fruit and you must keep on repenting and producing fruit then you will have a chance to be saved. I

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For those of you saying nobody in this thread says we aren't saved by good works, here is one that does.
Maybe you guys and gals could correct him.

Doug Melven said:

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
How on earth does this verse say a child of God can lose his salvation?

5 and ye have forgotten the exhortation which reasoneth with you as with sons, My son, regard not lightly the chastening of the Lord, Nor faint when thou art reproved of him; 6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 It is for chastening that ye endure; God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is there whom [his] father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye are without chastening, whereof all have been made partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

9 Furthermore, we had the fathers of our flesh to chasten us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

10 For they indeed for a few days chastened [us] as seemed good to them; but he for [our] profit, that [we] may be partakers of his holiness.

11 All chastening seemeth for the present to be not joyous but grievous; yet afterward it yieldeth peaceable fruit unto them that have been exercised thereby, [even the fruit] of righteousness.
There is nothing in this passage about being punished for sin.
This is about chastisement.
The Greek word for chastening is paidea.
Strong's No.:
G3809
Greek:
παιδεία
Transliteration:
paideia
Pronunciation:
pahee-di'-ah
Definition:
From G3811; tutorage that is education or training; by implication disciplinary correction: - chastening chastisement instruction nurture.
This same word is found in 2 Timothy 3:16 as instruction.
And is the word nurture in
Eph 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
Care to try again?

Of course we can't be righteous on our own. God made us righteous
2 Corinthians 5:21 Jesus was made to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
We are created in righteousness.
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
.
You make it way to difficult to be saved. Unlike what God did.
saiah 35:8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The wayof holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: thewayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

Of course Mary was human, but Jesus' Father was not. You really should figure out why that had to be.

For those of you saying nobody in this thread says we aren't saved by good works, here is one that does.
Maybe you guys and gals could correct him.


James was not wrong when he wrote that book as it was inspired by the Holy Spirit.
But many people take the Book of James out of context or misinterpret what he is saying.
If it was possible to lose salvation, it would be impossible to get it back.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

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It is impossible for us to bring someone else back to repentance who already knowing the word of God turned away from Him. There is no more evidence we can produce for such a person to persuade them to turn back to God because they already know. However that person can always turn back to God on their own accord.

BNR32FAN said:

It is impossible for us to bring someone else back to repentance who already knowing the word of God turned away from Him. There is no more evidence we can produce for such a person to persuade them to turn back to God because they already know. However that person can always turn back to God on their own accord.

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How many times? Or an unlimited number of times? And Scripture please.

Doug Melven said:

For those of you saying nobody in this thread says we aren't saved by good works, here is one that does.
Maybe you guys and gals could correct him.

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That was said in the context of our continuing conversation. I’ve already told you we are not saved by works we are saved by having a faith that produces works. I noticed you declined to comment on John 15:1-6 and the many other passages I posted in post #1624. Your previous post said John 15:1-6 isn’t talking about salvation and I replied it is talking about eternal damnation. Every scripture that speaks of eternal damnation is speaking of a loss of salvation. A person can only either receive salvation or burn in the lake of fire for all eternity. There is no in between. You keep avoiding these passages because you cannot explain how a person can only believe in Jesus without producing fruit (good works) and they will be saved without contradicting these passages I’ve presented. Your constant attempts to discredit me by taking what I say out of context and inability to confront the scriptures that I’ve posted have already proven that you have no answer to my question about these passages and you are so desperate to prove me wrong so that you won’t have to admit your mistake. Can’t you see that until you can explain how a person can be saved without producing fruit and without contradicting these scriptures I posted you can never prove that works are not necessary for salvation. I have already proven my point by the scriptures. You have proven nothing but your despair and desperation in trying to refute what is clearly stated in the Bible.

FreeGrace2 said:

I personally would be highly embarrassed to keep making claims that I couldn't prove or back up with Scripture.

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I have proven my doctrine many times over.


You, however have never proven a born again Christian can serve the antichrist and still remain saved.

Paul calls your words, “empty words”.


6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Ephesians 5:6-7


JLB