Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

GodsGrace101 · May 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I said this:
"Could we have a little honesty here? No one has EVER said in this discussion that we don't need to obey God's commandments. That's just nonsense.

What has been said, and backed up from the Bible, is that no one is SAVED by obeying God's commandments.

Can you discern the difference here? It seems we're wasting our time on this."

Gee, how convenient.

Correct.

The "Gee, how convenient" is not very nice of you.

Doug Melven · May 11, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
The OC was conditional. The NC is unconditional. We only have to belong to it. But how do we belong to it?

Jesus told us in John 3, we must be born again.
And how are we born again, by doing good works or believing on Jesus.
Believing on Jesus. Once I am born again, do I have to be reborn again after each sin? Or am I just born again once?

GodsGrace101 said:
We STILL have to obey God. I keep asking if you believe we should NOT obey God, but I don't get a precise answer.

Obedience is believing. Romans 1:5
Should I believe God to get something I already have? That is the New birth.
If I stop believing, will I stop being His child. Only a theologian steeped in seminary could say we are no longer His child. If a parent has a child that stops believing that he is a child of that parent, does that mean he is no longer that parent's child?
Yes, we need to obey God. His way is much better than ours.
Disobeying God can get you into all kinds of trouble. I did almost 5 years in prison, had 2 years of parole, now I am a permanent registered sex offender. I am glad God has provided me with my own business because as soon as the higher ups in a business find out about me they let me go. Despite the fact I put my record on the application.
So yes, disobedience to God for a Christian is a hard road and I recommend nobody do it.
Will that disobedience cost a believer there salvation? No, my life is hid with Christ in God.

GodsGrace101 said:
If we grieve the Holy Spirit by living a life of sin, He will certainly depart from us. Both Jesus and Paul exhorted us to live holy lives, set apart for service to God.

We may leave Him, but He promised to never leave us or forsake us. Hebrews 13:5
He wouldn't leave us if we do wrong.
He won't forsake us if we leave Him.

GodsGrace101 said:
Really?
What does sanctified mean and HOW do we become sanctified?
Will we be held blameless at the coming of Jesus if we are not under His blood protection? Every verse is a condition.

We are not sanctified by our will, but by the will of Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Sanctified means set apart.
You say every verse is a condition, where does the unconditional part come in?

GodsGrace101 said:
verse 4 Everyone who PRACTICES sin, practices lawlessness.

verse 8 The one who PRACTICES sin is of the devil.

verse 9 No one who PRACTICES sin is born of God because God's seed is in him, and he cannot sin (practice sin) because he is born of God.

verse 10 Again speaks of PRACTICING..this time righteousness.

The Greek word for where you have practice, is poieo. I misspoke earlier when I said prasso..
Poieo is a onetime act act.
The Strong's number is G4160, not G4238. Put them into Google and you will see the difference.

GodsGrace101 said:
Circumcision was the seal of the Abrahamic Covenant.
It stopped being the seal with the New Covenant.
The seal became unsealed.
You don't want to accept it since there is not much else to hang on to...

The seal did not become unsealed, it was replaced.

BNR32FAN · May 11, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
Yes, I know. John 10:28.
I listed verses from all over the N.T. about how salvation can be lost. There aren't so many about OSAS are there? I understand.

Circumcision was the seal of the Abrahamic Covenant.
It stopped being the seal with the New Covenant.
The seal became unsealed.
You don't want to accept it since there is not much else to hang on to...

If I knew what verses you're referring to, I'd be happy to answer you. I have asked you to use syntax but you refuse.

Agreed.

I don't know. Can't spend half my time here going back and forth to read what I had said. Sorry.

Refuting you is being difficult?
You can think that if you wish.

Apparently John 10:28 is the only scripture that matters. Nobody cares about verse 27 or any of the other scriptures we’ve posted. I wonder why we have 7,926 verses in the New Testament if we only need John 10:28 to sum it all up? :scratch:

FreeGrace2 · May 11, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
My point is that we are now shaping what He foresaw.

No, we're not. Don't you realize that He already knew everything you'd do? It seems not. So you're not shaping anything. He already knew.

1 John 3:20 - If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

FreeGrace2 · May 11, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
Yes, I know. John 10:28.
I listed verses from all over the N.T. about how salvation can be lost.

Yes, I know that you think you did. But you didn't.

How come you don't grasp the fact that if there is ANY verse that teaches loss of salvation, then John 10:28 cannot be true. Because it teaches and states eternal security is the clearest way possible.

There aren't so many about OSAS are there? I understand.

Why would you think would be any if any of your list actually did teach OSNAS?

Circumcision was the seal of the Abrahamic Covenant.
It stopped being the seal with the New Covenant.
The seal became unsealed.
You don't want to accept it since there is not much else to hang on to...

Except the Holy Spirit is NEVER described as a foreskin. You have a lot to learn.

If I knew what verses you're referring to, I'd be happy to answer you. I have asked you to use syntax but you refuse.

John 10:28

Prove that Jesus didn't explain the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in that verse.

Refuting you is being difficult?
You can think that if you wish.

Because it's true. If you're going to refute me, better get started.

Quick question: were you Reba on another site?

FreeGrace2 · May 11, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Apparently John 10:28 is the only scripture that matters.

Is this a blatant confession that it doesn't matter? It sure seems so.

Can you prove that Jesus DIDN'T teach about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in that verse?

Nobody cares about verse 27 or any of the other scriptures we’ve posted.

Since I've addressed them, your claim is empty.

I wonder why we have 7,926 verses in the New Testament if we only need John 10:28 to sum it all up?

Because it is the most clear verse in the Bible about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

And no one has been able to refute that FACT.

BNR32FAN · May 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
No, we're not. Don't you realize that He already knew everything you'd do? It seems not. So you're not shaping anything. He already knew.

1 John 3:20 - If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

My point is we are shaping what we will do right now. I absolutely agree that God knows everything we will ever do but that doesn’t change the idea that we have a choice in what He will foresee us doing. We are in control of our life at this moment and how we live our life determines what God has foreseen.

BNR32FAN · May 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Is this a blatant confession that it doesn't matter? It sure seems so.

Can you prove that Jesus DIDN'T teach about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in that verse?

Since I've addressed them, your claim is empty.

Because it is the most clear verse in the Bible about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

And no one has been able to refute that FACT.

Actually many people have successfully refuted your understanding of it. You just refuse to accept it.

FreeGrace2 · May 11, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
My point is we are shaping what we will do right now.

My point is that God has always known whatever you do, and when you do it.

I absolutely agree that God knows everything we will ever do but that doesn’t change the idea that we have a choice in what He will foresee us doing.

Nor have I ever even hinted that we don't have a choice.

We are in control of our life at this moment and how we live our life determines what God has foreseen.

Nope. Not at all. Nothing we do determines anything regarding God. He always knew what you'd do and when.

Remember this discussion began with your bizarre idea that whether we decide to sin today or not changes what Christ died for. And that is directly in conflict with God's omniscience.

Here's something to chew on. He always knew what you'd do way before you were born.

So, how can you claim that your choices has any effect on what God knows?

It doesn't. At all.

FreeGrace2 · May 11, 2018

I asked this:
"Can you prove that Jesus DIDN'T teach about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in that verse?"

BNR32FAN said:
Actually many people have successfully refuted your understanding of it. You just refuse to accept it.

Who are these "many people"? And if you're aware of their position, how come you haven't used it to refute my position?

My opinion of your claim is that it is just another opinion, but without any evidence.

Many have claimed to have refuted my points about John 10:28. But no one has.

Because they can't. Everything I've noted about that verse is a fact.

But, please proceed and refute my points from all these "many people" that you refer to that supposedly have refuted my understanding of it.

Doug Melven · May 11, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
All of the above are true but apparently misunderstood.
Which one should I post about?

These are the verse you said you were going to reply to but you never did. Post 539
How did I misunderstand any of these verse? They are straightforward.

1 Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
2 Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
3 Colossians 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
4 Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
5 Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them
6 Hebrews
10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
7 1 John
5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Notice the 2 different believe's in this verse. The first one gives us eternal life. We possess it. We also need to believe for blessings. Not continue to believe to get something we already possess.
8 1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
9 John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Yet some people think Jesus will cast us out or cut us off from eternal life.
10 Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
11 1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
You don't belong to you anymore. Once you were joined to the LORD, you belong to Him now.

BNR32FAN · May 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
I asked this:
"Can you prove that Jesus DIDN'T teach about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in that verse?"

Who are these "many people"? And if you're aware of their position, how come you haven't used it to refute my position?

My opinion of your claim is that it is just another opinion, but without any evidence.

Many have claimed to have refuted my points about John 10:28. But no one has.

Because they can't. Everything I've noted about that verse is a fact.

But, please proceed and refute my points from all these "many people" that you refer to that supposedly have refuted my understanding of it.

A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. A tree is identified by its fruit. Figs are never gathered from thornbushes, and grapes are not picked from bramble bushes. A good person produces good things from the treasury of a good heart, and an evil person produces evil things from the treasury of an evil heart. What you say flows from what is in your heart. “So why do you keep calling me ‘Lord, Lord!’ when you don’t do what I say? I will show you what it’s like when someone comes to me, listens to my teaching, and then follows it. It is like a person building a house who digs deep and lays the foundation on solid rock. When the floodwaters rise and break against that house, it stands firm because it is well built. But anyone who hears and doesn’t obey is like a person who builds a house right on the ground, without a foundation. When the floods sweep down against that house, it will collapse into a heap of ruins.

Does faith alone include doing what Jesus says? Nope

Luke 6:43-49

Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.

Does faith alone teach you must produce fruit? Nope

Matthew 7:15-20

I am the true grapevine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch of mine that doesn’t produce fruit, and he prunes the branches that do bear fruit so they will produce even more. You have already been pruned and purified by the message I have given you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. For a branch cannot produce fruit if it is severed from the vine, and you cannot be fruitful unless you remain in me. “Yes, I am the vine; you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will produce much fruit. For apart from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a useless branch and withers. Such branches are gathered into a pile to be burned.

Again no fruit required in faith alone.

John 15:1-6

When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Does faith alone mean you can’t live a sinful life? Nope

Galatians 5:19-21

Even now the ax of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.

Still no fruit required in faith alone.

Matthew 3:10

Let there be no sexual immorality, impurity, or greed among you. Such sins have no place among God’s people. Obscene stories, foolish talk, and coarse jokes—these are not for you. Instead, let there be thankfulness to God. You can be sure that no immoral, impure, or greedy person will inherit the Kingdom of Christ and of God. For a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Don’t be fooled by those who try to excuse these sins, for the anger of God will fall on all who disobey him.

Does faith alone teach that you can sin all you want and still be saved? Yup. Does faith alone try to excuse these sins? Yup.

Ephesians 5:3-6

But when the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’ “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!’ “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.

Is helping others in need required in faith alone? Nope

Matthew 25:31-46

Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a fishing net that was thrown into the water and caught fish of every kind. When the net was full, they dragged it up onto the shore, sat down, and sorted the good fish into crates, but threw the bad ones away. That is the way it will be at the end of the world. The angels will come and separate the wicked people from the righteous, throwing the wicked into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Is repentance required for faith alone? Nope

Matthew 13:47-50

Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels. “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand!

Again is repentance required for faith alone? Nope.

Matthew 13:37-43

Well that just about covers it AGAIN

Afra · May 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Quite the opposite! His work on the cross is the ONLY WAY anyone will be saved.

Nothing you or I can do will be sufficient for salvation. That's why Jesus went to the cross. To pay for yours and my sins.

That's why salvation is by grace through faith. Eph 2:8

And not by works. Eph 2:9

What is lacking in Christ's afflictions, in your view?

Afra · May 11, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
A jailer once asked the apostle Paul what he MUST DO to be saved.

Paul said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Acts 16:31

See post #730

Bible2+ · May 12, 2018

FreeGrace2 said in post #757:

So, what Jesus clearly indicated by what He said was that saved people shall never perish.

Note that saved people can perish (Luke 13:3). So John 10:28 refers only to obedient saved people (Matthew 25:21), not to disobedient saved people (Matthew 25:26, Matthew 25:30).

Bible2+ · May 12, 2018

GodsGrace101 said in post #762:
BTW, I NEVER said we are saved by obeying commandments.

Note that we are saved ultimately by obeying Jesus' commandments (Hebrews 5:9).

*******

GodsGrace101 said in post #764:

And, BTW, our good works do NOT save us.
That would be legalism.

Grace sets Christians free from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 6:14b, John 1:17, Romans 7:6), but not from Jesus Christ's New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 15:10; 1 Corinthians 9:21, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 26:28), the commandments of which (John 14:15) are those He gave, for example, in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37). For while Christians are initially saved by grace, by faith only (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5), and do not have to obey the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Galatians 2:16, Romans 7:6), they do have to obey Jesus' New Covenant commandments in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21, Romans 2:6-8).

It is by Christians obeying Jesus Christ's New Covenant commandments, whether obeying them currently (1 John 3:24), or during the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 12:17b), that Christians can be sure that they are truly loving Jesus (John 14:21-24; 1 John 5:3), and remaining in His love (John 15:10, John 14:21b,23b, Jude 1:21). Christians must fear ultimately losing their salvation, ultimately being cut off the same as non-Christians, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46).

GodsGrace101 said in post #764:

Was Jesus a Judaizer?

That depends on how the term is defined. For example, Jesus did say that salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22, Matthew 10:5-6, Matthew 15:24, Acts 3:26). Similarly, His apostle Paul said that the Gospel of Jesus goes to the Jew first (Romans 1:16).

While Paul was not a Judaizer in the sense of requiring physical circumcision or any other works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, he was a Judaizer in that he taught that all Christians, whether Jews (Acts 22:3) or Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually circumcised Jews if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13). Also, Paul did not contradict that Christians' obeying Jesus' New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 15:10), in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-8), is them obeying the commandments of a Jew (John 4:9,22b).

Also, salvation is of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which God has made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34). So Christian Gentiles are grafted into Israel so that they can partake of the salvation offered by God to Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16).

Bible2+ · May 12, 2018

Doug Melven said in post #765:

Because Romans 4:6-8 says that God does not impute sin to me..

Romans 4:8 applies only so long as we repent from our sins (Hebrews 10:26-29) and confess them to God (1 John 1:9).

Doug Melven said in post #765:

[1 Thes] . . .
5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

23 and 24 is Paul's prayer that we would be sanctified, Then he says God is faithful who will do answer his prayer.
That is unconditional.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 is conditional on our remaining faithful to God (2 Timothy 2:12b, Romans 11:20-22).

*******

Doug Melven said in post #766:

Hebrews 6:4-6 says it is impossible because Jesus Christ cannot be crucified again.

Do you hold that it is impossible for Christians to fall away?

If so, note that Hebrews 6:6 does not deny that Christians can fall away. For it refers only to apostate Christians being unable to be renewed again to repentance, in the sense of a second time, like they had repented the first time when they became Christians (1 John 3:9). And Hebrews 6:6 refers only to apostate Christians being unable to crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, in the sense of a second time, after they had received salvation through their belief the first time in Jesus Christ's crucifixion for their sins (Romans 3:25-26).

Doug Melven said in post #766:

But you say we have free will to leave God and put Him behind us.
Once you were born-again, you are no longer your own. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 doesn't mean that we no longer have free will, or that we can't wrongly commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

Doug Melven said in post #766:

Hebrews 10:26-29 is referring to someone who received the KNOWLEDGE of the Truth. They did not receive the Truth.

They did, for they were sanctified (Hebrews 10:29).

Doug Melven said in post #766:

But a person who is saved is not guilty of doing what is said in that verse.

He is if he is in unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29).

Doug Melven said in post #766:

New Covenant law. We love Him because He first loved us and we love our neighbors as He loved us.

Only so long as we are obeying His commandments (John 14:21-24; 1 John 5:2).

*******

Doug Melven said in post #782:

Obedience is believing. Romans 1:5

And doing (Matthew 7:21).

Bible2+ · May 12, 2018

BNR32FAN said in post #783:

I wonder why we have 7,926 verses in the New Testament if we only need John 10:28 to sum it all up?

Great point (Isaiah 28:9-10).

*******

BNR32FAN said in post #777:

Pastor Greg does not say that faith alone is the new world religion. I’m just curious because he does say it will be a religion that is easy for everyone to accept and since being born again or fruits aren’t necessary for salvation in faith alone I thought that it might possibly be the new world religion.

The new world religion won't be faith alone, because people will have to do certain things if they want to be able to buy food or not be executed (Revelation 13:15-17).

Also, Christians need to be aware that during the future Antichrist's literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18), even though the world will consciously and openly worship Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), this will not require that the Antichrist's one-world religion will say that Jesus is evil, or will turn the world against Jesus. For almost the entire world reveres Jesus, at least as being a good man. The Antichrist could confirm this basic world belief, but simply (in his words) "clarify" that while Jesus is indeed a good man, he is not the Christ or the Son of God (1 John 2:22). No doubt the Antichrist will also deny that Jesus suffered and died on the Cross for our sins, as this, just as believing that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36), is one of the core beliefs of the Gospel by which people become saved from hell (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

So what the Antichrist could do is keep the idea of a good Jesus, but strip it of everything by which Jesus saves people from hell. And this would not require that the Antichrist deny Jesus' Second Coming. Indeed, the Antichrist and his False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20) could even try to employ to their own ends the Biblical prophecy of Jesus' Second Coming, as well as the Muslim prophecy which says that the miracle-working prophet Jesus will return bodily from heaven in the last days to bring the whole earth into the worship of the true God. For the False Prophet could claim that he is Jesus returned, via "reincarnation". And he could perform amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof of his claim (cf. John 3:2). This is one reason why it is important to know when and how the real Jesus' Second Coming will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21).

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), also called Satanism, a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times the prophet Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

The person whom the Antichrist will revile is YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), whom many people mistakenly think of as being (in their words) "the God of only the Old Testament, that cruel and hateful God who commanded people to commit genocide and to kill babies (1 Samuel 15:3), whereas Jesus came and preached love for everyone (Matthew 5:44)". The truth is that Jesus Christ confirmed that the God of the Old Testament, YHWH (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18), is the same as the God of the New Testament (Mark 12:29-31), and that the Old Testament is true (Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 24:44-48). Jesus suffered and died for our sins in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (Isaiah 53; 1 Peter 2:24). And He rose from the dead in fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy from YHWH (e.g. Psalms 16:10, Acts 2:31). Jesus died to establish the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28), which YHWH had foretold in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 31:31-34). And Jesus died to bring about the defeat of Satan (Hebrews 2:14), which YHWH had foretold from even the first book of the Old Testament (Genesis 3:15).

Nonetheless, building on many people's misconceptions of YHWH as being (in their words) "the cruel God of the Old Testament", no doubt one of the future Antichrist's chief blasphemies against YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36) will be that YHWH is an evil god. This is one of the ancient blasphemies of Gnosticism, another being the antichrist lie that Christ is not in the flesh (2 John 1:7). The world will be deceived into completely rejecting YHWH, and worshipping Satan and the Antichrist instead (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9). But Satan might not be worshipped as "Satan", which almost everyone sees as a bad name (it means "Adversary"), but as "Lucifer" (Isaiah 14:12), which means "the morning star". The Antichrist could falsely say that it is YHWH who is the true "Satan", the true "Adversary" of mankind. And the Antichrist could claim that even 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together prove this by showing that it was the single entity of YHWH/Satan who moved King David to number Israel. Of course, the truth is that 2 Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 together simply mean that YHWH used Satan to move David. YHWH elsewhere rebuked Satan (Zechariah 3:2), so they are in no way the same person.

Because the Antichrist and his False Prophet (possibly masquerading as Jesus) will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22), and will deny that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and because they will bring the unsaved world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) instead (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), they could falsely say that (the non-mortal flesh) Lucifer is the Christ, that the new name of Christ (Revelation 3:12c) is "Lucifer Christ". For just as "Lucifer" means "the morning star", so Christ is the morning star (Revelation 22:16b). Also, Christ identified himself with the serpent (John 3:14), and Lucifer is the serpent (Revelation 12:9). Also, Christ said: "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), and it was the serpent who said: "ye shall be as gods" (Genesis 3:5).

But the truth is that Lucifer fell from his office of morning star (Isaiah 14:12), and became Satan (cf. Luke 10:18). Jesus Christ has taken over the office of morning star (Revelation 22:16). And Jesus Christ identified Himself only with the brass serpent on the pole in Numbers 21:8-9 (John 3:14), which typified Jesus Christ's crucifixion for our sins (John 19:16, Matthew 26:28). And in John 10:34, Jesus Christ (John 20:31) was quoting YHWH in Psalms 82:6-7, which shows that even though humans have knowledge of good and evil as gods do (Genesis 3:22), they will still die like humans (Psalms 82:7), contradicting the serpent's lie (Genesis 3:4). Nonetheless, the Antichrist could falsely say that Lucifer is the Christ and the true and beneficent God of mankind, and that the False Prophet is the miracle-working prophet Jesus (cf. John 3:2, Acts 3:22-24) returned to point the world to the true Christ/God. The Antichrist could falsely say that he (the Antichrist) is the human/divine "Son" of Lucifer, who must be worshipped as God along with Lucifer (Revelation 13:4,8). This would be similar to how Biblical Christians rightly worship the human/divine Jesus Christ (John 1:1,14) as YHWH God (the Son) along with YHWH God the Father (John 20:28, Hebrews 1:8).

Near the end of the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH Himself (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before the real Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:20 to 20:3).

So the Second Coming of Jesus Christ will be a total shock to the world. The world will have been expecting to wage war against some evil Old Testament god named "YHWH" with the help of the good Jesus (played by the False Prophet), and with the help of the true and beneficent Christ/God (played by Lucifer), and with the help of the good Son of God (played by the Antichrist), and with the help of the good angels of God (played by the fallen angels of Lucifer: Revelation 12:9). But then, instead of some evil god appearing in the sky, the world could see the glorious sign of the Cross (cf. Matthew 24:30), the symbol of the good YHWH suffering and dying for our sins (Acts 20:28b). And then the world will see the glorious appearance of the real Jesus sitting on a white horse descending from the sky (Revelation 19:11-21).

When the people of the world realize at that moment how thoroughly they have been duped, and see in the sky the huge angelic armies (2 Thessalonians 1:7, Matthew 25:31) of the true Jesus, the true Christ, the true Son of God, and the good YHWH, who are all the one and the same Jesus Christ of Nazareth, then they could utterly mourn and wail for themselves (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 1:7), knowing in their spirits that Jesus has returned in wrath to destroy most of them for their unrepentant sins (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Revelation 19:15-21).

FreeGrace2 · May 12, 2018

I asked this:
"Can you prove that Jesus DIDN'T teach about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in that verse?"

BNR32FAN said:
Does faith alone include doing what Jesus says? Nope

Luke 6:43-49

Does faith alone teach you must produce fruit? Nope

Matthew 7:15-20

Again no fruit required in faith alone.

John 15:1-6

Does faith alone mean you can’t live a sinful life? Nope

Galatians 5:19-21

Still no fruit required in faith alone.

Matthew 3:10

Does faith alone teach that you can sin all you want and still be saved? Yup.

Just don't forget the many warnings about God's painful discipline. Heb 12:11

And examples of how that might look, in 1 Cor 10 and 1 Cor 5:5.

Does faith alone try to excuse these sins? Yup.

Nope. That's only in your own fantasy.

Ephesians 5:3-6

Is helping others in need required in faith alone? Nope

Matthew 25:31-46

Is repentance required for faith alone? Nope

Matthew 13:47-50

Again is repentance required for faith alone? Nope.

Matthew 13:37-43

Well that just about covers it AGAIN

Funny thing is, I asked if you could prove that Jesus didn't teach about the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in John 10:28.

And all you've got are many unrelated passages.

So I'll take that as , no you can't prove that He wasn't.

None of the things you mentioned are required for salvation. That's your problem.

FreeGrace2 · May 12, 2018

I said:
"Quite the opposite! His work on the cross is the ONLY WAY anyone will be saved.

Nothing you or I can do will be sufficient for salvation. That's why Jesus went to the cross. To pay for yours and my sins.

That's why salvation is by grace through faith. Eph 2:8

And not by works. Eph 2:9"

Afra said:
What is lacking in Christ's afflictions, in your view?

I have no idea what your question means. And, how does it relate in any way to my comments that you responded to? The question seems irrelevant.

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