Looking for The Episcopal Church USA thread
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tampasteve
Pray for peace in Israel
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Just to clarify, the Missouri Synod teaches that the office of the Papacy is the anti-Christ, not the man in the position. So the man currently holding the position can still be a good man of God while the office is not. It is a bit complicated of a position, but it is what it is. Individual pastors might single out the Pope himself, but that is not official teaching.
The other conservative Lutheran Synods teach more or less the same, the more liberal ELCA technically teaches the same but practically does not teach this any longer. But since it is in the Book of Concord (foundation explanation of the Lutheran Church) it cannot just be dropped.
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They have a FAQ on this:
The LCMS does not teach, nor has it ever taught, that any individual Pope as a person, is to be identified with the Antichrist. The historic view of LCMS on the Antichrist is summarized as follows by the Synod's Theological Commission:
The New Testament predicts that the church throughout its history will witness many antichrists (Matt. 24:5,23-24; Mark 13:6,21-22; Luke 21:8; 1 John 2:18,22; 4:3; 2 John 7). All false teachers who teach contrary to Christ's Word are opponents of Christ and, insofar as they do so, are anti-Christ.
However, the Scriptures also teach that there is one climactic "Anti-Christ" (Dan. 7:8,11, 20-21, 24-25; 11:36-45; 2 Thessalonians 2; 1 John 2:18; 4:3; Revelation 17-18). . . Concerning the historical identity of the Antichrist, we affirm the Lutheran Confessions' identification of the Antichrist with the office of the papacy whose official claims continue to correspond to the Scriptural marks listed above. It is important, however, that we observe the distinction which the Lutheran Confessors made between the office of the pope (papacy) and the individual men who fill that office. The latter could be Christians themselves. We do not presume to judge any person's heart. Also, we acknowledge the possibility that the historical form of the Antichrist could change. Of course, in that case another identified by these marks would rise.
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tampasteve
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Lol sounds like you are referring to a plague of undesirables.
LOL. Caught me. You appear to have very good deductive reasoning.
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- Feb 29, 2004
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Mary7, I don't know if this helps or not but Article 26 of the Thirty-nine articles may somewhat have bearing on your concern.
XXVI. Of the Unworthiness of the Ministers, which hinders not the effect of the Sacraments.
Although in the visible Church the evil be ever mingled with the good, and sometimes the evil have chief authority in the Ministration of the Word and Sacraments, yet forasmuch as they do not the same in their own name, but in Christ's, and do minister by his commission and authority, we may use their Ministry, both in hearing the Word of God, and in receiving the Sacraments. Neither is the effect of Christ's ordinance taken away by their wickedness, nor the grace of God's gifts diminished from such as by faith, and rightly, do receive the Sacraments ministered unto them; which be effectual, because of Christ's institution and promise, although they be ministered by evil men.
Although in the visible Church the evil be ever mingled with the good, and sometimes the evil have chief authority in the Ministration of the Word and Sacraments, yet forasmuch as they do not the same in their own name, but in Christ's, and do minister by his commission and authority, we may use their Ministry, both in hearing the Word of God, and in receiving the Sacraments. Neither is the effect of Christ's ordinance taken away by their wickedness, nor the grace of God's gifts diminished from such as by faith, and rightly, do receive the Sacraments ministered unto them; which be effectual, because of Christ's institution and promise, although they be ministered by evil men.
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Lol sounds like you are referring to a plague of undesirables.
He is LOL
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- Oct 26, 2015
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Yes! That was very helpful!
I looked up an article about that :
Two important facts are presented in this Article: 1. That sacramental efficacy and pure preaching can be real and valid when ministered by unworthy persons, and 2. that the Church must, nonetheless, exercise discipline and maintain moral standards.
Both Timothy and Titus are warned to select only qualified men, those who not only can teach soundly, but also who demonstrate by their lives an example worthy to be followed by others, and one that avoids scandal. The warning extends not only to allowing them to act, but to ordination itself
The Bible gives us moral standards and I feel TEC has failed miserably in this. I am sure you will not agree
However, reading this has given me some peace about it.
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The Bible gives us moral standards and I feel TEC has failed miserably in this. I am sure you will not agree
Don't be so sure about that. I am something of an enigma.
Although you sniffed me out as being no fan of the religious right, I consider myself a religious traditionalist. Nonetheless, I like my Episcopal church and have not found the issue you raise to be a stopper for me regardless of what I think about it. I've yet to find the church that I can agree with on every point.
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- Oct 26, 2015
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As am I
I am spiritually very conservative but politically.. well that is another story.
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Sean611
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I spent about 5-6 years in the Episcopal Church and I am really thankful for my time in my parish church. I met some life-long friends there and really fell in love with the traditional liturgy. Being a traditionalist isn't easy in TEC, however, as long as my parish stayed the course, I did my best to focus local and not national. Easier said than done at times!
We lost our traditional priest to another parish and the diocese set us up with an interim priest. This priest ties about every other sermon in with the political issues of the moment and urged us to follow whatever his position happened to be. The parish can't afford a new full-time priest, so they are stuck with him. That was the last-straw for me, so I joined the Missouri-Synod Lutherans. My wife is still Episcopalian, but she rarely goes anymore. In the end, I love what the Episcopal Church is/was on paper and I don't regret my stay in the slightest. The Lutheran Church is far from perfect, but it is a matter of what you can tolerate and what you cannot tolerate.
We lost our traditional priest to another parish and the diocese set us up with an interim priest. This priest ties about every other sermon in with the political issues of the moment and urged us to follow whatever his position happened to be. The parish can't afford a new full-time priest, so they are stuck with him. That was the last-straw for me, so I joined the Missouri-Synod Lutherans. My wife is still Episcopalian, but she rarely goes anymore. In the end, I love what the Episcopal Church is/was on paper and I don't regret my stay in the slightest. The Lutheran Church is far from perfect, but it is a matter of what you can tolerate and what you cannot tolerate.
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- Feb 29, 2004
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I've never paid any mind to what someone else tells me I should think. Perhaps, I'm too stubborn. Or perhaps I take the three-legged stool of Anglicanism seriously. Scripture. Tradition. Reason.
The "Reason" part. I can apply my own reason to a message I can hear from the pulpit. As I heard someone say once, "I've heard many a bad sermon, but I've never been to a bad Eucharist."
LCMS has a closed communion which I can't abide. I'd rather listen to a blowhard in the pulpit and be able to join all Christians around the common cup, than do the opposite. The point is that different people value different things. We all have are own "stopper."
The "Reason" part. I can apply my own reason to a message I can hear from the pulpit. As I heard someone say once, "I've heard many a bad sermon, but I've never been to a bad Eucharist."
LCMS has a closed communion which I can't abide. I'd rather listen to a blowhard in the pulpit and be able to join all Christians around the common cup, than do the opposite. The point is that different people value different things. We all have are own "stopper."
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I don't think political issues should ever be mentioned from a pulpit. I know from experience that many Baptists are very guilty on that point.
My concerns about the Lutheran church and why, so far, I have not moved in that direction is that I do not agree with Luther's idea that the papacy is antichrist.
I also read about a pastor who was disciplined for joining in a prayer group or vigil with other denominations around the time of 9 11.
Just from things I have read including forums, I hear too much about Luther as if some follow him more than God.
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The new 'priest-in-charge' at our local Episcopal cathedral that I visit on occasion, is so far apolitical in his sermon's which I appreciate but the next nearest Episcopal parish's Rector is far left leaning and often takes more time giving his opinion of the latest news reports than he does on expounding on the biblical texts for the day.
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I'm curious about this. Even when the gospel has a clear bearing on an issue? Why?
I completely understand not wanting the sermon to become nothing more than a regular stream of political opinion, but it also strikes me as odd that we would exclude one part of life from application of the Scriptures being preached on.
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No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather works to please his commanding officer. 2Tim 2:4
This is not our home. Heaven is our home
Jesus and the apostles did not try to reform the Roman govt even tho homosexuality and abortion were common.. As far as clergy they should be teaching the Word of God not preaching their take on politics. As citizens we should stay informed and vote but please leave it out of the church.
There is also the fact that doing so causes strife in the congregation and as has been said in this thread, can cause some to leave.
If I wanted to hear political opinions I would just read Twitter.
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When required Jesus would talk about politics - his teaching about the walk another mile and this one about taxes:
The Question about Paying Taxes
(Mt 22:15–22; Lk 20:20–26)
13 Then they sent to him some Pharisees and some Herodians to trap him in what he said. 14 And they came and said to him, “Teacher, we know that you are sincere, and show deference to no one; for you do not regard people with partiality, but teach the way of God in accordance with truth. Is it lawful to pay taxes to the emperor, or not? 15 Should we pay them, or should we not?” But knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, “Why are you putting me to the test? Bring me a denarius and let me see it.” 16 And they brought one. Then he said to them, “Whose head is this, and whose title?” They answered, “The emperor’s.” 17 Jesus said to them, “Give to the emperor the things that are the emperor’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” And they were utterly amazed at him.
The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Mk 12:13–17.
As Paidiske said above there is a time when political commentary is meaningful to application of the Gospel for the congregation... If all I ever heard in church was political commentary from the preacher I would be having a chat to the Church Wardens.
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I think there is a difference between clergy talking about application of Christian principles to the issues of our time and their promoting this or that candidate or party. The former is proper, the latter less so in my opinion.
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I agree with that. If one talked about scriptures teaching to feed the poor and hungry then that is proper, for example but I don't see the need to link any discussion to an endorsement of a party.
Jesus did teach to pay taxes but he did not teach to push for tax reform.
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The way I was taught to approach it is that it's appropriate to comment on policy (and how it might or might not align with the kingdom of God), but not on parties or particular people. (Ie: it's wrong to try to tell people how to vote; it's fine to equip people to think about how to vote).
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