How to bear witness to the truth of the Trinity

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The ousia--substance, essence, being--is what all Three are: God. The Hypostasis of the Father is not the Hypostasis of the Son, or the Hypostasis of the Spirit. The Hypostasis of the Father is just that, the Father.

The one Person or Hypostasis of the Son has two natures (physeon), God and man.

"We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach men to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man, of a reasonable soul and body; consubstantial with us according to the manhood; in all things like unto us, without sin; begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the virgin Mary, the mother of God, according to the manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ, as the prophets from the beginning have declared concerning him, and the Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us." - Definition of Chalcedon, 451 AD

The underlined in Greek: εἰς ἓν πρόσωπον καὶ μίαν ὑπὸστασιν (eis en prosopon kai mian hypostasin), in one Person and one Hypostasis.

The one Person, Hypostasis, of Jesus Christ, the eternal Son and Word of God, is of two natures, both God and man. One in being (homoousios) with the Father, because He is God; and of one being with us, because He is human. That's why it is called the Hypostatic Union, it is the union of two natures in the one Hypostasis of the Son.

-CryptoLutheran
Hypostasis as used in the Fathers (and often in Greek philosophy, as well) refers to an actualization of a nature. There is one nature in the Godhead which is the divine nature, 2 natures of Christ which is human/divine nature equally divided, and one nature of humans until adoption into the divine family. But that divine nature aquired by humans is only in submission to the Godhead whereas the divine nature of the Godhead is in equal submission to the purposes of each.

Hypostasis: is the substance, the real nature of a thing, the essence. Trinitarian theologians built upon the philosophical usage of the term and nuanced it to the sense of the particular actualization of a nature.

This is the church progression of the word hypostasis that the 4th century gave change of meaning to fit trinitarian 3 persons box.

From the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church (3rd ed.), p. 813: hypostasis (Gk. hypostasis, lit. 'substance') The Greek word has had a variety of meanings. In popular language it was used orig. for 'objective reality' as opposed to illusion (so also in Aristotle and esp. the Neoplatonists). In the NT this seems roughly its meaning at Heb. 1:3.
Allied to this was its use for 'basis' or 'foundation' and hence also 'confidence', e.g. in Heb. 3:14 and 11:1 and 2 Cor. 9:4 and 11:17.
In early Christian writers it is used to denote 'being' or 'substantive reality' and is not distinguished in meaning from ousia; it was so used by Tatian and Origen, and also in the anathemas appended to the Nicene Creed of 325.
From the middle of the 4th cent. onwards the word came to be contrasted with ousia and used to mean 'individual reality', esp. in Trinitarian and Christological contexts. It was mainly under the influence of the Cappadocian Fathers that the terminology was clarified and standardized, so that the formula 'Three Hypostaseis in one Ousia' came to be everywhere accepted as an epitome of the orthodox doctrine of the Holy Trinity. But this consensus was not achieved without some confusion at first in the minds of W. theologians, who naturally translated hypostasis by 'sub-stantia' ('substance') and understood the Easterns when speaking of three 'Hypostaseis' in the Godhead to mean three 'Substances', i.e. they suspected them of tritheism.​

Note in particular that all the scripture references are to an earlier undefined meaning while defined by church meanings have no scriptural references. So being a scripture believer I'll go with the simple meaning and leave you to fit your dogma into a box.
hypostasis (Gk. hypostasis, lit. 'substance') The Greek word has had a variety of meanings. In popular language it was used orig. for 'objective reality' as opposed to illusion (so also in Aristotle and esp. the Neoplatonists). In the NT this seems roughly its meaning at Hebrews 1:3.
Allied to this was its use for 'basis' or 'foundation' and hence also 'confidence', e.g. in Hebrews 3:14 and Hebrews 11:1 and 2 Corinthians 9:4 and 2 Corinthians 11:17.''

The Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium has this in its entry on hypostasis (p. 966 in v. 2, emphasis added): "...at the Council of Alexandria in 362 did Athanasios of Alexandria approve the difference between the terms hypostasis and ousia, and in the wake of the creed of the First Council of Constantinople in 381 the Cappadocian interpretation of the Trinity as three hypostases and one ousia became canonical. Hypostasis was contrasted to the substance or nature of the divinity, and defined as the individual property (idiotes) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, whereas ousia—as an individual reality—was the element they shared (koinon) that presupposes a Stoic ontology."​
 
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2 Corinthians 13:14

14 The 1agrace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the blove of God and the cfellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

141 The grace of the Lord is the Lord Himself as life to us for our enjoyment (John 1:17 and note 1; 1 Cor. 15:10 and note 1), the love of God is God Himself (1 John 4:8, 16) as the source of the grace of the Lord, and the fellowship of the Spirit is the Spirit Himself as the transmission of the grace of the Lord with the love of God for our participation. These are not three separate matters but three aspects of one thing, just as the Lord, God, and the Holy Spirit are not three separate Gods but three "hypostases ... of the one same undivided and indivisible" God (Philip Schaff). The Greek word for hypostasis (used in Heb. 11:1 — see note 2 there), the singular form of hypostases, refers to a support under, a support beneath, i.e., something underneath that supports, a supporting substance. The Father, the Son, and the Spirit are the hypostases, the supporting substances, that compose the one Godhead.

The love of God is the source, since God is the origin; the grace of the Lord is the course of the love of God, since the Lord is the expression of God; and the fellowship of the Spirit is the impartation of the grace of the Lord with the love of God, since the Spirit is the transmission of the Lord with God, for our experience and enjoyment of the Triune God — the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, with Their divine virtues. Here the grace of the Lord is mentioned first because this book is on the grace of Christ (1:12; 4:15; 6:1; 8:1, 9; 9:8, 14; 12:9). Such a divine attribute of three virtues — love, grace, and fellowship — and such a Triune God of the three divine hypostases — the Father, the Son, and the Spirit — were needed by the distracted and confused yet comforted and restored Corinthian believers. Hence, the apostle used all these divine and precious things in one sentence to conclude his lovely and dear Epistle.

This verse is strong proof that the trinity of the Godhead is not for the doctrinal understanding of systematic theology but for the dispensing of God Himself in His trinity into His chosen and redeemed people. In the Bible the Trinity is never revealed merely as a doctrine. It is always revealed or mentioned in regard to the relationship of God with His creatures, especially with man, who was created by Him, and more particularly with His chosen and redeemed people. The first divine title used in the divine revelation, Elohim in Hebrew, a title used in relation to God's creation, is plural in number (Gen. 1:1), implying that God, as the Creator of the heavens and the earth for man, is triune. Concerning His creation of man in His own image, after His own likeness, He used the plural pronouns Us and Our, referring to His trinity (Gen. 1:26) and implying that He would be one with man and express Himself through man in His trinity. Later, in Gen. 3:22 and 11:7 and Isa. 6:8, He referred to Himself again and again as Us in regard to His relationship with man and with His chosen people.

In order to redeem fallen man that He might again have the position to be one with man, He became incarnated (John 1:1, 14) in the Son and through the Spirit (Luke 1:31-35) to be a man, and lived a human life on the earth, also in the Son (Luke 2:49) and by the Spirit (Luke 4:1; Matt. 12:28). At the beginning of His ministry on the earth, the Father anointed the Son with the Spirit (Matt. 3:16-17; Luke 4:18) in order that He might reach men and bring them back to Him. Just before He was crucified in the flesh and resurrected to become the life-giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45), He unveiled His mysterious trinity to His disciples in plain words (John 14--17), stating that the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son (John 14:9-11), that the Spirit is the transfiguration of the Son (John 14:16-20), that the three, coexisting and coinhering simultaneously, are abiding with the believers for their enjoyment (John 14:23; 17:21-23), and that all that the Father has is the Son's and all that the Son possesses is received by the Spirit to be declared to the believers (John 16:13-15). Such a Trinity is altogether related to the dispensing of the processed God into His believers (John 14:17, 20; 15:4-5) that they may be one in and with the Triune God (John 17:21-23).

After His resurrection He charged His disciples to disciple the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19); that is, He charged the disciples to bring the believing ones into the Triune God, into an organic union with the processed God, who had passed through incarnation, human living, and crucifixion and had entered into resurrection. Based on such an organic union, the apostle, at the conclusion of this divine Epistle to the Corinthians, blessed them with the blessed Divine Trinity in the participation in the Son's grace with the Father's love through the Spirit's fellowship. In this Divine Trinity, God the Father operates all things in all the members in the church, which is the Body of Christ, through the ministries of the Lord, God the Son, by the gifts of God the Spirit (1 Cor. 12:4-6).

The entire divine revelation in the book of Ephesians concerning the producing, existing, growing, building up, and fighting of the church as the Body of Christ is composed of the divine economy, the dispensing of the Triune God into the members of the Body of Christ. Chapter 1 of Ephesians unveils that God the Father chose and predestinated these members in eternity (Eph. 1:4-5), that God the Son redeemed them (Eph. 1:6-12), and that God the Spirit, as a pledge, sealed them (Eph. 1:13-14), thus imparting Himself into His believers for the formation of the church, which is the Body of Christ, the fullness of the One who fills all in all (Eph. 1:18-23). Chapter 2 shows us that in the Divine Trinity all the believers, both Jewish and Gentile, have access unto God the Father, through God the Son, in God the Spirit (Eph. 2:18). This indicates that the three coexist and coinhere simultaneously, even after all the processes of incarnation, human living, crucifixion, and resurrection. In ch. 3 the apostle prayed that God the Father would grant the believers to be strengthened through God the Spirit into their inner man, that Christ, God the Son, may make His home in their hearts, that is, occupy their entire being, that they may be filled unto all the fullness of God (Eph. 3:14-19). This is the climax of the believers' experience of and participation in God in His trinity. Chapter 4 portrays how the processed God as the Spirit, the Lord, and the Father is mingled with the Body of Christ (Eph. 4:4-6) so that all the members of the Body may experience the Divine Trinity. Chapter 5 exhorts the believers to praise the Lord, God the Son, with the songs of God the Spirit, and give thanks in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, God the Son, to God the Father (Eph. 5:19-20). This is to praise and thank the processed God in His divine trinity for our enjoyment of Him as the Triune God. Chapter 6 instructs us to fight the spiritual warfare by being empowered in the Lord, God the Son, putting on the whole armor of God the Father, and wielding the sword of God the Spirit (Eph. 6:10, 11, 17). This is the believers' experience and enjoyment of the Triune God even in the spiritual warfare.

The apostle Peter, in his writing, confirmed that God is triune for the believers' enjoyment, referring the believers to the election of God the Father, the sanctification of God the Spirit, and the redemption of Jesus Christ, God the Son, accomplished by His blood (1 Pet. 1:2). And John the apostle strengthened the revelation that the Divine Trinity is for the believers' participation in the processed Triune God. In the book of Revelation he blessed the churches in different localities with grace and peace from God the Father, Him who is and who was and who is coming, and from God the Spirit, the seven Spirits who are before His throne, and from God the Son, Jesus Christ, the faithful Witness, the Firstborn of the dead, and the Ruler of the kings of the earth (Rev. 1:4-5). John's blessing given to the churches indicated also that the processed Triune God, in all He is as the eternal Father, in all He is able to do as the sevenfold intensified Spirit, and in all He has attained and obtained as the anointed Son, is for the believers' enjoyment, that they may be His corporate testimony as the golden lampstands (Rev. 1:9, 11, 20).

Thus, it is evident that the divine revelation of the trinity of the Godhead in the holy Word, from Genesis through Revelation, is not for theological study but for the apprehending of how God in His mysterious and marvelous trinity dispenses Himself into His chosen people, that we as His chosen and redeemed people may, as indicated in the apostle's blessing to the Corinthian believers, participate in, experience, enjoy, and possess the processed Triune God now and for eternity. Amen.
 
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Doug Melven

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We aren't speaking of an imaginary Three, but of actually Three. There really are Three: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These aren't merely terms we use to describe divine attributes or functions or expressions of God, but refer to actual, real, distinct Someones.

That is what is meant by "Person" and Hypostasis here.

-CryptoLutheran
This was a very informative post.
If it was possible to give a post a double rating of Winner and informative I would have done so.
 
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Arius

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Trying to explain the Trinity to an unbeliever is more difficult than explaining a beautiful sunrise to a blind person.

But isn't that exactly why Jesus came, .. to open the eyes of the blind? So explaining the Trinity should be the "eye-opener", no?

And if you succeed in explaining the Trinity, which even most believers do not understand, you will have gotten nowhere. They will just have something else that needs explaining.

But I thought God is not a god of confusion (we know a god that is, right?) so with what you just said, Biblically you raise an alert, a caution about this Trinity Doctrine for we are taught to be aware of the "doctrines of men" that aim to confuse!?

The natural man (unbeliever) can not understand the things of God. You must be born again.

How can I be "born again" if I don't understand the "things of God", .. like for instance this Trinity-Doctrine which you say; even most believers don't understand!? Sounds to me that this trinity-doctrine is accepted on "blind faith" by most believers, which is against the Biblical teaching of faith:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

We are taught to have evidence with substance before we just go on believing! Like the air for instance, we cannot see it, but we have all kinds of 'evidence with substance' for it.
 
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Arius

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Just out of curiosity, how important is it to believe the right thing about the nature of trinity? Does getting it wrong affect your salvation?

It's only if you believe that "salvation" is becoming a member of the Christian Religion? Accepting the Trinity Doctrine is the first thing in becoming a Christian, .. it is the very foundation of this Religion.

We have triple deities in our little Pagan world and it doesn't seem to be the big deal that it appears to be in the Christian world.

That's because it's the same "triple deities" that's in the Pagan world what Christians try to make Bible God out to be, which is as you can see; very difficult. It gets very confusing, so Christians ask their followers to just accept it on blind faith. It's a secret, a mystery, non-debatable so don't even try to understand it!?
 
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Doug Melven

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But isn't that exactly why Jesus came, .. to open the eyes of the blind? So explaining the Trinity should be the "eye-opener", no?
Yes, He did.
He also came to make blind those who thought they could see. John 9:39
Opening our eyes isn't meant for us to understand doctrine. But restore the sight that Adam lost.

But I thought God is not a god of confusion (we know a god that is, right?) so with what you just said, Biblically you raise an alert, a caution about this Trinity Doctrine for we are taught to be aware of the "doctrines of men" that aim to confuse!?
The devil is the one who makes things complicated/confusing.
If every doctrine that he made confusing we abandoned, we soon wouldn't have anything left.
Should we abandon the concept of eternity because we can't comprehend it?
What about the love of God? Ephesians 3:19 says the love of God is beyond our understanding.
It is the same way with the Trinity.

How can I be "born again" if I don't understand the "things of God", .. like for instance this Trinity-Doctrine which you say; even most believers don't understand!? Sounds to me that this trinity-doctrine is accepted on "blind faith" by most believers, which is against the Biblical teaching of faith:
When Nicodemus came to Jesus with questions, Jesus ignored his questions and told him he had to be born again.
Blind faith is not good.
When people have blind faith they get led into all sorts of strange doctrines.
That is why it is so important that Christians know what they believe and why they believe it.
 
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awitch

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It's only if you believe that "salvation" is becoming a member of the Christian Religion? Accepting the Trinity Doctrine is the first thing in becoming a Christian, .. it is the very foundation of this Religion.

So god will condemn millions of people who accept Jesus as their lord and savior and sincerely try to lead a Christ-like life to an eternal punishment because they hold an incorrect belief about the nature of one or three?
 
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Arius

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Yes, He did.
He also came to make blind those who thought they could see. John 9:39
Opening our eyes isn't meant for us to understand doctrine. But restore the sight that Adam lost.

Thank you brother for your response, and I mean no offense in my poor answers, so I will pray that the Holy Spirit would reinterpret what I say to you so as to have no confusion about it.

Here is something interesting, .. I got this from an LDS sight from Google asking: "What was the doctrine of Jesus Christ":
LDS answer: The “doctrine of Christ” is that all men everywhere must have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of their sins, be baptized, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end.

And this other answer was from Bible.org Christology: The Doctrine of Christ:
1. The disciple will understand that Jesus was truly human. 2. The disciple will understand more clearly the deity of Jesus and who He truly is. 3. The disciple will see the unique nature of Christ as a human and yet He is God. 4. The disciple will understand the significance of the doctrine of Christ and its impact ...

To me, the LDS answer is the correct one, and the Bible.org is very confusing, and from what I read of the Scriptures, not Biblical either. I mean if Christ's doctrine was so the disciple would 'understand' that Jesus was truly human and yet He is God, he sure went the wrong way about it by saying things like "My Father is greater than I," .. or his continuous prayers to God, or that "the Day of his return no one knows, not even himself", yet he supposed to be up there on the right hand of father-god, taking his place (according to the T.D.) as God, even the Godhead.
How is he THE godhead when he doesn't even know the Day of his return?

The devil is the one who makes things complicated/confusing.
If every doctrine that he made confusing we abandoned, we soon wouldn't have anything left.

Yes, that is my whole point, why have all these man made doctrines when without it the Bible is so clear!? Look what happened to the Jews for being stubborn and holding on to their doctrines, .. they rejected Christ their Messiah to this very day.

Should we abandon the concept of eternity because we can't comprehend it?

I think everyone understands the concept of "living forever", matter of fact, it is so imbedded in us that we live life as if we will never die! The whole concept of death is foreign to us even after 6,000 years of seeing death all around us. How often do we really contemplate on the fact that at any moment we could die?? Even when I think about it, I don't really believe it, .. it's just a passing thought and I let it pass even when guns were held to my head by drugged out men intent to kill me.

What about the love of God? Ephesians 3:19 says the love of God is beyond our understanding.
It is the same way with the Trinity.

Yes, so true, but understandable. I mean just from what I have witnessed in my life, I would destroy every human on this Flat Earth starting with my flip-flopping self. Yet here is God who sees all things and feels every child who is being hurt, yet "rises the sun and brings the rain" on us all as if nothing happened. Now that to me IS Beyond my Understanding, but I do understand it because God is infinitely good, patient and kind.
But the Trinity is a man made doctrine to dissect God from being an inseparable-One, into at least three lesser gods. Actually, this doctrine reduces God to a concept, which is what allowed the millions of god-concept to flourish that we have in the world today. The Hindus alone have about 30 million god-concepts.
Google "Hindu-gods" resulted - The 33 Million Gods of Hinduism. Why Hindus worship so many gods and goddesses is a real mystery for most people. In the West, where the mass majority of people are part of the Abrahamic faith tradition with one God, the concept of polytheism is nothing more than fantasy or mythology worthy of comic book material.

When Nicodemus came to Jesus with questions, Jesus ignored his questions and told him he had to be born again.

Well if you read how this started: John 3:10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?"

Nicodemus came to Jesus with human wisdom, and Jesus just kicked the stool that he was standing on from under his feet, which fulfills exactly what you quoted above: John 9:39

John 9:37 And Jesus said to him (the once blind man), “You have both seen Him and it is He who is talking with you.”
38 Then he said, “Lord, I believe!” And he worshiped Him.

(not blind faith, but faith with substance because Jesus healed this mans physical blindness, fixed his eyes)

39 And Jesus said, “For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see, and that those who see may be made blind.”
(now look who he was talking to, and they knew it, .. the Pharisees)

40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him, “Are we blind also?”
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains.

(Yet look how, little by little, step by step I'm being banished from this Forum for doing what Jesus asked us to do, to open the eyes of the blind, to make people aware of men's doctrines that kept us all blind for over 1,700 years. And let's look at why? It's because of a man made doctrine that is held above Gods Word.

So many good Bible reading people here, yet their lips and hearts chained by a confusing doctrine they themselves admit cannot be understood, .. a mystery, as if that was why Jesus came, to give us an unsolvable mystery. How sad, and all of you believe it, and even enforce it!? Just know this, that I, as Jesus love every man/woman who goes by Christian here. I am not your enemy, but seems like Gods Word is. How can they kick me off of a sight that claims to go by the Word of God as written in the Bible? How? It should be done by using the Word of God to chastise, correct, open my eyes with, not saying I'm breaking man made rule that says "You cannot touch the Trinity Doctrine"? How can this be justified, how can you members here sit by and allow this to happen?)

Blind faith is not good.

No it's not, I agree with you my friend.
Do you understand this Trinity doctrine? If you do, can you try to explain it to me because I never could, .. which is why I questioned it! Now imagine being told that you are Not To Question something that's
1. Not Biblical
2. an admitted mystery even to those who invented it
3. it does nothing to improve our understanding of God, nor His son Word aka Jesus Christ, or the Holy Spirit that God sent to "help us understand all things". Yes, that is why Jesus said he will send him, so there would be no confusion in the Church, but that we would all be of one mind with Christ, that we all may be One, as he is One with the Father!

When people have blind faith they get led into all sorts of strange doctrines.
That is why it is so important that Christians know what they believe and why they believe it.

But don't you see my friend that Christians are told to accept something on blind faith, this Trinity doctrine, that you don't need to understand it, yet it is the foundation that Christianity was built on! So how can it be so important for Christians to "know" what they believe if you are not to question it? We were promised that; "don't worry, we will understand it once we get to Christian Heaven and be with our three gods who are in the supernatural realm!

What if someone asked you to come and follow Allah and become a Muslim. That; yeah, there are a lot of things Allah requests of us that doesn't make sense, what we don't understand right now, but just trust him! Don't worry, because when you get into Paradise and get your 70 virgins, you Will Understand!

Can I ask you to explain to me why you believe in the Trinity?
Like where does the T-doctrine clarify the Bibles description of God being One, and the Word, who became flesh and dwelt amongst us as Jesus Christ being the Son of God?
Or God sending the Holy Spirit so he could help us understand all this?
In other words, where does the Holy Spirit fail that the Catholic Church and the Pope had to come up with the Trinity Doctrine, which even they admit is a mystery and un-understandable to explain all this?

Thank you and may God bless you!
 
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Arius

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So god will condemn millions of people who accept Jesus as their lord and savior and sincerely try to lead a Christ-like life to an eternal punishment because they hold an incorrect belief about the nature of one or three?

No, God will not condemn those that did not know, they will just loose some of their reward. But those who knew (because God will haunt the souls as they read the Scriptures, or send someone to those who sincerely seek) will be judged according to there knowledge, or lack of it because they punished, or silenced those that God sends to speak for Him.

John 9:41 Jesus said to them (the Pharisees), “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say, ‘We see.’ Therefore your sin remains."

There is a difference between getting baptized in the multi-gods in a Religion, .. and accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior and being baptized in the "knowledge", and not ignorance of our Lord, .. this can be signified in a water baptism, or dry, if no water is available because the water doesn't save anyone, but our verbal open acknowledgment or confession that the 'water, the blood of Christ, and the Holy Spirit' saves us.

In other words we have to understand, and then believe and confess the following:

That the son of God Word (Not God) came in the flesh by the Holy Spirit, was born out of water (placenta), shed his blood on the cross! These three are the witnesses, .. and our acknowledgement of these three is our baptism.

In the former, Jesus is a god, a deity who resides in the supernatural realm, .. in the latter he is the son of God Word, who became flesh and was named Jesus the long awaited Christ, died (God cannot die, but we know all about the pagan gods how they can kill each other and die, then get resurrected and so on) .. was resurrected and is now seated on the right hand of God, his God and our God, .. who will come and judge both the living and the dead.

God bless you.
 
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awitch

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No, God will not condemn those that did not know, they will just loose some of their reward. But those who knew (because God will haunt the souls as they read the Scriptures, or send someone to those who sincerely seek) will be judged according to there knowledge, or lack of it because they punished, or silenced those that God sends to speak for Him.

Given the punishments and rewards, it seems odd that god would send someone else to speak on his behalf. Considering the varying schools of thought in this thread alone from self-identifying Christians. Who I am to trust?
 
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Can I ask you to explain to me why you believe in the Trinity?
I can't answer for the Catholic church or anyone else for that matter. I will explain why I believe the doctrine of the Trinity.
Because Scripture teaches it.
In Genesis God said, "Let US make man in OUR image"
Look at Isaiah 48 and find out who is talking. Then read
Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Look up the Hebrew word for God. It is Elohim. When you see "im" at the end of a Hebrew word it means it is plural.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Our natural minds cannot conceive how an entity can be with someone and be that someone at the same time.
In Acts 5:3-4 Peter told Ananias that he had lied to God, then he said you have not lied unto men but you lied to the Holy Ghost.
Clearly Peter thought the Holy Ghost was God
Romans 9:5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.
 
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Arius

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Given the punishments and rewards, it seems odd that god would send someone else to speak on his behalf. Considering the varying schools of thought in this thread alone from self-identifying Christians. Who I am to trust?

God is Spirit, He uses whatever means He sees fit to communicate with each of us. Kind of like we do, for now we use the keyboard/internet, or we use the phone etc.

If God can't get through to us in one way (using our conscience when we knowingly try to avoid the truth), then He tries another way, .. like for instance he waits till we hurt, suffer, and cry out to Him.
Many people turn to God when they hit rock bottom, like when they end up in prison.

Who are we to trust? That is totally up to us. If we feel that Religions can help us, many stay in Religion. I went through some really difficult times searching for God, and asked the exact same question: "Who am I to trust?" So I left my Church and went to other denominations, dabbled in other Religions even into Scientology which lead me to books. Shared what I learned with whomever would listen to me and also listened to others, to friends suggestions, so I ended up on a quest for spirituality, and I'm sure you know what's out there, especially if you go to a book stores "spirituality section", my God, it was like an acid trip. One book was more psychedelic than the other.

This is when I learned all about divinations, contacting spirits, and gods in the supernatural realm, either through getting deep into reading a spiritual book like Seth Speaks (by Jane Roberts) etc. or meetings with gurus, or spiritual councilors, who ended up questioning me more than I questioned them, .. lol. But in reality, when I was alone in my thoughts, I realized that this supernatural spirituality stuff was no different than watching a good sci-fi movie (I loved watching sci-fi, especially fantasy), once you're done with one, you need another, or keep watching that same one over and over again to avoid coming back to reality.

This is what I've seen Christians on; church-acid, where they get so involved with the supernatural where they will meet three, and even four times a week, and it's not because they are growing in Godly wisdom there, but they need their fix, afraid to come down from it and face the reality that now they have more unanswered questions than what they started with.

This is why I believe Christians here, or in general don't like to talk with me, .. I'm a downer. I can ask a few questions and bring them down to reality, and they don't like it. They need their Christian-Diviners to tell them about supernatural healings, visions of Jesus and God, miracles like the medium Benny Hinn and other miracle workers, or how they will be raptured up just before the tribulations, .. things like that.

You asked: "Who am I to trust?", .. tell me, trust about what?
The truth about God?
Read the Bible, question everything you read. Question God, question those who speak in Gods name (or claim to speak in Gods name), question everything and everyone until you are satisfied with the answer!

Truth about Religions?
Stay here, you will learn a lot, like that you cannot question Religion.

Christ taught his Disciples to go out of their way to bring in one who looked lost. He even made a point how a Good Shepherd will leave the ninety-nine sheep to find and bring home the one that was lost, but that is not what is in the Forum Rule definition here, if they feel you are lost (as they think I am) they will not only not come and talk to you to save you, but will lock you out unless you bow down and accept their rules.

My trust is in God, not my own wisdom, so I would never back down or cast anyone away because their understanding of God is different than mine. I know there is but one God, not made up of His son, and His Holy spirit, but God is God, He created all things including His son so He could create through him, and created the Holy Spirit to help Him, to search even the deep things of God.
 
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awitch

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You asked: "Who am I to trust?", .. tell me, trust about what?
The truth about God?

Well, yes.
Suppose two different Christians provide two different schools of thought on a religious topic, each telling me that the other is wrong, the other may not qualify Christian because of that other school of thought, and that accepting the other's belief endangers my soul. Relying on others doesn't sound like a very good way for god to make himself known. Now multiply that by the 100,000+ different denominations out there.

Read the Bible, question everything you read. Question God, question those who speak in Gods name (or claim to speak in Gods name), question everything and everyone until you are satisfied with the answer!

But Christians are saying that the fate of our souls depend on getting the Trinity right, so how it can just be up to me? And if it was truly up to me to decide the answer, then how much can it really matter to god if I get it wrong? Will he say, "You got it wrong so flamey-burney times for you?" or will he say, "You got it wrong but you sincerely tried to get it right so you're excused"?

I know there is but one God, not made up of His son, and His Holy spirit, but God is God, He created all things including His son so He could create through him, and created the Holy Spirit to help Him, to search even the deep things of God.

You "know"?
 
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Arius

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I can't answer for the Catholic church or anyone else for that matter. I will explain why I believe the doctrine of the Trinity.
Because Scripture teaches it.

Thank you again Doug, but of course I would have to disagree with you on that, because there is no mention anywhere in the Bible of God, or Jesus, nor the Holy Spirit mentioning anything about; "we are God, and there is no one besides us!" Or that: "I am God, for we are many" as we clearly see the demon Legion does as we can see here:

Mark 5:9 Then He (Jesus) asked him, “What is your name?” And he(singular) answered, saying, “My name is Legion; for we(plural) are many .”

In Genesis God said, "Let US make man in OUR image"

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God (before God created/beget him, His son Word aka Jesus Christ). 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

OK, so who was "in the beginning with God, creating, making all things through him"?
It was Gods son Word.

Look at Isaiah 48 and find out who is talking. Then read
Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Look up the Hebrew word for God. It is Elohim. When you see "im" at the end of a Hebrew word it means it is plural.

Again, yes it was God who created all things, .. through him/Word, and without him/Word nothing was made that was made. So who was IN the beginning of all creation with God?
The son Word.

Who is Gods only begotten son Word?
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. In other words, the Word of God is His son, who came in the flesh and was named "Jesus".

When did the Word aka Jesus appear with God?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God
Revelations 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”

Plural? .. not always, Elohim (im) can be singular also.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Our natural minds cannot conceive how an entity can be with someone and be that someone at the same time.

We can't conceive it because it does not exist. God is not called Word, but His son is. And the Word became flesh and died, not God became flesh and died. God is Infinite and Eternal, He couldn't die, that is not just impossible, but Infinite is Eternal in its nature. That's like how cosmological science tries to turn Infinite into infinity, things going on through infinity, so they can destroy God in science and mathematics.
God cannot die, but the Word can die if turned into flesh, which is what it says in the Bible happened.

In Acts 5:3-4 Peter told Ananias that he had lied to God, then he said you have not lied unto men but you lied to the Holy Ghost.
Clearly Peter thought the Holy Ghost was God

Ananias lied not only to God, but the Holy Spirit who was present with them, he also lied to Jesus, and to the whole congregation.
If a disciple of Christ lies to you, to us, is he lying to God or not? Of course he is, but we not going to confuse ourselves with God now are we?

Romans 9:5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of the Messiah, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

Yes, we could move the words around that way to try to justify Christ as a god who died,
Or, .. how about we move the word God to where it really belongs:

Romans 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and as far as His natural descent was concerned, from them is the Christ, who is exalted and supreme over all. God be blessed forever! Amen
 
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Arius

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Well, yes.
Suppose two different Christians provide two different schools of thought on a religious topic, each telling me that the other is wrong, the other may not qualify Christian because of that other school of thought, and that accepting the other's belief endangers my soul. Relying on others doesn't sound like a very good way for god to make himself known. Now multiply that by the 100,000+ different denominations out there.

There is your answer, the Christian (any Religion really) will always go by their own denominational doctrines, which is why I read the Bible from outside the box, the box being Religion and their doctrines.

But Christians are saying that the fate of our souls depend on getting the Trinity right, so how it can just be up to me? And if it was truly up to me to decide the answer, then how much can it really matter to god if I get it wrong? Will he say, "You got it wrong so flamey-burney times for you?" or will he say, "You got it wrong but you sincerely tried to get it right so you're excused"?

Like I said, don't read the Bible from inside the box.
And yes, if we choose any organized Religion and their gods, over God described in the Bible and revealed in creation, we could be facing the flamey-burney as you said. But this will never happen if you "sincerely tried" as you said, .. never. Only the gods in Religions would want to do something like that.
Remember that Heaven is a gift, but hell has to be earned. Take the gift!

You "know"?

Well of course, our mind/spirit is Infinite, given/breathed by God Himself. You didn't think God was some created finite being who could die, did you? Naah, you listen to too many Religious stories my friend, don't worry, God is a just and loving God, and His son Word, aka Jesus Christ revealed Him beautifully. So thank God for sending His son into the world and declaring his God and our God to us!

God bless you, and remember God loves you!
 
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Like I said, don't read the Bible from inside the box.
And yes, if we choose any organized Religion and their gods, over God described in the Bible and revealed in creation, we could be facing the flamey-burney as you said. But this will never happen if you "sincerely tried" as you said, .. never. Only the gods in Religions would want to do something like that.
Remember that Heaven is a gift, but hell has to be earned. Take the gift!

I've sincerely sought the divine for the last 20 years, though my path is quite different from the god described in the Bible.

...don't worry, God is a just and loving God, and His son Word, aka Jesus Christ revealed Him beautifully.

That's not at all what I gather from reading the Bible.
But as a sincere seeker who gets to decide on my own, I shouldn't have to worry about it.
 
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Doug Melven

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Again, yes it was God who created all things, .. through him/Word, and without him/Word nothing was made that was made. So who was IN the beginning of all creation with God?
The son Word.

Who is Gods only begotten son Word?
John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. In other words, the Word of God is His son, who came in the flesh and was named "Jesus".

When did the Word aka Jesus appear with God?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God
Revelations 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Jesus Christ said this of Himself.
So did the LORD God.
Isaiah 41:4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.
In the book of John you will find Jesus calling Himself "I AM" 8:58
This is what God said about Himself in Exodus 3.
The evidence that Jesus is God is overwhelming.
Your only evidence for Him not being the One true God is you say God cannot die.
How God can die and not die at the same time can only be true if it is God the Son who died and not God the Father.
It was God who said.
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn
Also there is Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Plural? .. not always, Elohim (im) can be singular also.
Can you show me an example of this?
My research shows that adding "im" to a noun makes the singular into plural just as in English adding an "s" to a noun makes that which is singular plural.

We can't conceive it because it does not exist.

Romans 9:5 To them belong the patriarchs, and as far as His natural descent was concerned, from them is the Christ, who is exalted and supreme over all. God be blessed forever! Amen
What version of the Bible is this? I see you have a be in there that I don't see in any versions.
 
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ViaCrucis

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My research shows that adding "im" to a noun makes the singular into plural just as in English adding an "s" to a noun makes that which is singular plural.

Accurate, though the interesting case seems to be that it is used in a singular sense, by the use of singular-case verbs in the context.

So for example Genesis 1:1 uses the plural construction Elohim, but the other words are singular,

בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָֽרֶץ׃

The adverb בְּרֵאשִׁית is singular, as is the verb בָּרָא.

Which would make Elohim functionally singular, as I understand it.

Compared to, say, Exodus 32:1 where the people say "let us make gods to go before us" the preposition and verbs in reference to the elohim here is plural.

Tools used:
Hebrew conjugation tables
Bible Search and Study Tools - Blue Letter Bible

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Arius

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I've sincerely sought the divine for the last 20 years, though my path is quite different from the god described in the Bible.

@awitch
OK, so is the path you took to seek God is different from the Bible, or the path that this search lead you on is different from the Bible?

That's not at all what I gather from reading the Bible.

Taking the Bible as a whole, .. how so? Can you give me some examples? Or start with just one, .. thanks.

But as a sincere seeker who gets to decide on my own, I shouldn't have to worry about it.

That would be in a perfect world, .. like it was before Eve fell for the trick, .. you know, where the serpent said:
Genesis 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’
?

But no, today, especially today we do have to worry, .. we have to be very careful which friends we pick, or whose "interpretation" of the Bible we use to decide if God is good, or not? Take; Hitchens, Dawkins, .. and like Billy Graham for instance, they have some very different, and un-Biblical views on who, or how God is.
The latter (Billy) made God to be 'not good enough', so he widened the road to Heaven .. while the former guys just made him out to be evil, took Him right out of the equation.
 
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@awitch
OK, so is the path you took to seek God is different from the Bible, or the path that this search lead you on is different from the Bible?

I'm forging my own path as I go.

Taking the Bible as a whole, .. how so? Can you give me some examples? Or start with just one, .. thanks.

Planet drownings, firebombing cities, lots of other death and destruction, priority of commandments, slavery, capital punishment for non-crimes, and the list just goes on. I'm sure we could have a thread for every one of them but I've already heard plenty of supposed justifications for it.

That would be in a perfect world, .. like it was before Eve fell for the trick, .. you know, where the serpent said:
Genesis 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’
?

Snakes can't really talk.

But no, today, especially today we do have to worry, .. we have to be very careful which friends we pick, or whose "interpretation" of the Bible we use to decide if God is good, or not? Take;

Why?
There are multiple Pagans here with varying beliefs and as far as I know we get along fine with our differences. Years ago when I was part of a group, we had Pagans of all sorts of different traditions practicing together and there was never a problem.
 
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