Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

Oseas · Mar 13, 2018

Butch5 said:
You said, "Ah yes the ever popular internet screed "the concept of hell was copied from Greek mythology.""
That is your straw man.
I know a source much more reliable. It's called the Bible. However, the OP isn't about what the Jews believed about annihilation. It's about what the Bible teaches about annihilation.

Yes, Bible teaches about annihilation. 1 Cor.13:v.8-9&15:v.26
8 But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be annihilated.
26 The last enemy that will be annihilated is death.

Oseas · Mar 13, 2018

Jordan Henshaw said:
So in other words, you don't think Hell is real?

He never burned up Sodom and Gomorrah with eternal fire?

He only knows fire that extinguishes after consuming combustible material, nothing remaining

more than ashes. But he does not know the eternal fire, evidently, so he ignores what is eternal

fire. I'll explain:

Maybe he knows that the Word is God, for God is Spirit, God is Word, Word is God. Knowing this it leaves easy to understand the unquenchable fire, the eternal fire.

See, God is Spirit, the EVERLASTING Spirit of God is a consuming FIRE, even a devouring FIRE. This FIRE is eternal, unquenchable.

JESUS said: "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear:but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Der Alte · Mar 13, 2018

Jordan Henshaw said:
So in other words, you don't think Hell is real?
He never burned up Sodom and Gomorrah with eternal fire?

I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before trying to respond. We were not discussing hell, I was refuting your claim that in Jer 32:35 God allegedly "said that he would never consider burning his children in fire." In response I quoted Gen 19:24 (24) "Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;" God did in fact burn His children in fire.

DavidPT · Mar 13, 2018

Der Alter said:
I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before trying to respond. We were not discussing hell, I was refuting your claim that in Jer 32:35 God allegedly "said that he would never consider burning his children in fire." In response I quoted Gen 19:24 (24) "Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;" God did in fact burn His children in fire.

Can't argue with the logic you used here. Good point.

Shempster · Mar 14, 2018

Der Alter said:
I have found it very helpful to actually read a post before trying to respond. We were not discussing hell, I was refuting your claim that in Jer 32:35 God allegedly "said that he would never consider burning his children in fire." In response I quoted Gen 19:24 (24) "Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;" God did in fact burn His children in fire.

The difference is in the context. Yes, God did send fire and sulfur to kill the people of Sodom and G. But this event led to the PHYSICAL death of those people. He also commanded the Israelites to slaughter the Caananites. But again, this was a physical death. I was listening to Jeremiah today and it was chock full of references of the physical people of Israel being overtaken and either killed or enslaved. Once again, this refers to physical death which we are ALL subject to.

The point in the thread (I think) is the afterlife. Will God torture His creation for all of eternity as spiritual beings? This is the question.

Der Alte · Mar 14, 2018

Shempster said:
The difference is in the context. Yes, God did send fire and sulfur to kill the people of Sodom and G. But this event led to the PHYSICAL death of those people. He also commanded the Israelites to slaughter the Caananites. But again, this was a physical death. I was listening to Jeremiah today and it was chock full of references of the physical people of Israel being overtaken and either killed or enslaved. Once again, this refers to physical death which we are ALL subject to.
The point in the thread (I think) is the afterlife. Will God torture His creation for all of eternity as spiritual beings? This is the question.

I call this the "Yeah, but" rebuttal. When the Israelites sacrificed their children to the pagan deity Molech was it a"physical death"? Since it was it cannot be used as a proof text for or against ECT. Would you like to discuss another proof text?

Jordan Henshaw · Mar 15, 2018

Der Alter said:
I call this the "Yeah, but" rebuttal.

Do you not know how to be polite?

Der Alte · Mar 15, 2018

Jordan Henshaw said:
Do you not know how to be polite?

Yes, thank you for asking.

Der Alte · Mar 15, 2018

Sanoy said:
...I often wonder if Greek mythology isn't partially responsible for the view of ECT due to the translation of sheol into Hades.

Butch5 said:
It's vastly responsible. The idea comes from the Platonic teaching that man is immortal. ....

Butch5 said:
You said, "Ah yes the ever popular internet screed "the concept of hell was copied from Greek mythology.""
That is your straw man.

See Sanoy's and your post above. That is what I was responding to when I said "Ah yes the ever popular internet screed 'the concept of hell was copied from Greek mythology.'" My post proved that among the Jews at the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of unending conscious fiery torment which they called both Ge-hinnom and sheol. So no strawman.

I know a source much more reliable. It's called the Bible. However, the OP isn't about what the Jews believed about annihilation. It's about what the Bible teaches about annihilation.

Good you show me where the Bible documents that the Christian belief in hell was copied/derived from Greek/Platonic mythology?

Jordan Henshaw · Mar 15, 2018

Der Alter said:
See Sanoy's and your post above. That is what I was responding to when I said "Ah yes the ever popular internet screed 'the concept of hell was copied from Greek mythology.'" My post proved that among the Jews at the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of unending conscious fiery torment which they called both Ge-hinnom and sheol. So no strawman.

Good you show me where the Bible documents that the Christian belief in hell was copied/derived from Greek/Platonic mythology?

"the King of kings and Lord of lords. He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light." - 1 Timothy 6:16

"To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life." - Romans 2:17

"but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." - 2 Timothy 1:10

1 Corinthians 15 – “So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. 43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power…Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable…For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality… + 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” + 1 Peter 1:23 – “for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.”

The bible couldn't be more clear that immortality is not inherent to the soul of man.

It just isn't. It couldn't be clearer.

"Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” - Genesis 3:22

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to eat of the tree of life in the paradise of God." - Revelation 2:7

The picture is very clear.

"The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Him." - Romans 6:23

Death means death. Not eternal life in torment.

Sorry.

Death.

The soul is NOT immortal.

Der Alte · Mar 15, 2018

Jordan Henshaw said:
"the King of kings and Lord of lords. He alone is immortal and dwells in unapproachable light." - 1 Timothy 6:16
"To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life." - Romans 2:17
"but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." - 2 Timothy 1:10
1 Corinthians 15 – “So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. 43It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power…Now I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable…For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality… + 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 – “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” + 1 Peter 1:23 – “for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.”
The bible couldn't be more clear that immortality is not inherent to the soul of man.
It just isn't. It couldn't be clearer.
"Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever” - Genesis 3:22
"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will grant the right to eat of the tree of life in the paradise of God." - Revelation 2:7
The picture is very clear.
"The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Him." - Romans 6:23
Death means death. Not eternal life in torment.
Sorry.
Death.
The soul is NOT immortal.

In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isaiah 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
Some will try to argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will try to argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative. The Hebrew word שאול/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
Here is another passage where God Himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezekiel 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Ezekiel 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

In the NT is this story.

Luke 16:22-31
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
(29) Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
(30) And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
(31) And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Butch5 · Mar 15, 2018

Der Alter said:
See Sanoy's and your post above. That is what I was responding to when I said "Ah yes the ever popular internet screed 'the concept of hell was copied from Greek mythology.'" My post proved that among the Jews at the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of unending conscious fiery torment which they called both Ge-hinnom and sheol. So no strawman.

Except that proving what the Jews believed doesn't prove your point. If you're correct about the Jews, where did they get their belief about Hell? Even that doesn't prove your point because the Gentiles were for the most part Greeks or influenced by Greek culture and they had Platonic beliefs before the time of Christ.

Good you show me where the Bible documents that the Christian belief in hell was copied/derived from Greek/Platonic mythology?

My Statement was aimed at your use of commentaries. The Bible is more accurate. The Bible doesn't state it, however, we see no beliefs among the Jews in Scripture about this place of eternal conscious torment. We don't see it in the NT either even though some would take passages out of context. However, we do see it in Greek culture. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to make the connection.

ClementofA · Mar 16, 2018

Der Alter said:
Rev 20:10
(10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10 & forever & ever a deceptive translation:

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Sanoy · Mar 16, 2018

Der Alter said:
See Sanoy's and your post above. That is what I was responding to when I said "Ah yes the ever popular internet screed 'the concept of hell was copied from Greek mythology.'" My post proved that among the Jews at the time of Jesus there was a belief in a place of unending conscious fiery torment which they called both Ge-hinnom and sheol. So no strawman.

Good you show me where the Bible documents that the Christian belief in hell was copied/derived from Greek/Platonic mythology?

Well actually you need to show a Jewish belief that predates Hellenism to make that point. So you need dates attached to your sources. I'm not saying you are wrong just that you haven't made yourself right yet. Most of the targums are in AD, so we need some BC dates. You won't need a gallop of sources as before, just 1 or 2 will make that point.

Additionally the majority of church fathers were not Jewish, but Greek/Roman etc who would see JudeoChristianity through their cultural viewpoint when they spoke on it. It is a tall order to say it had no influence especially when sheol will ride upon the greek word hades or Tartarus for any Greek speaking person.

Der Alte · Mar 16, 2018

ClementofA said:
Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10 & forever & ever a deceptive translation: . . .

I have proved you wrong, from scripture, several times.

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [ἀΐ́διος/aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

In Romans 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous.

Der Alte · Mar 16, 2018

Butch5 said:
Except that proving what the Jews believed doesn't prove your point. If you're correct about the Jews, where did they get their belief about Hell? Even that doesn't prove your point because the Gentiles were for the most part Greeks or influenced by Greek culture and they had Platonic beliefs before the time of Christ.

Had you bothered to actually read my post you would have seen the OT scripture on which the Jews based their belief in hell. I provide evidence, you just keep repeating the same unsupported claims.

My Statement was aimed at your use of commentaries.

I don't quote commentaries. I quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. The only credible record of ancient Jewish beliefs and practices that I am aware of.

The Bible is more accurate. The Bible doesn't state it, however, we see no beliefs among the Jews in Scripture about this place of eternal conscious torment. We don't see it in the NT either even though some would take passages out of context. However, we do see it in Greek culture. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to make the connection.

Similarity does not prove derivation! As I have shown from Jewish sources according to the Jews the OT does describe a place of eternal fiery punishment for the unrighteous and they called it both Ge-hinnom and sheol.

Proverbs 23:14
(14) Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell. [שְׁאוֹל/sheol]

If שְׁאוֹל/sheol means grave. Spanking a child will not save him from the grave. Saying something is out-of-context does not make it so.
When Jesus taught about,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24

These teachings were like the existing Jewish view of eternal hell, In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..

Der Alte · Mar 16, 2018

Sanoy said:
Well actually you need to show a Jewish belief that predates Hellenism to make that point. So you need dates attached to your sources. I'm not saying you are wrong just that you haven't made yourself right yet. Most of the targums are in AD, so we need some BC dates. You won't need a gallop of sources as before, just 1 or 2 will make that point.

The Targums were compiled AD but they didn't make stuff up they recorded the oral tradition which dates 100s of years BC. Why should I provide dates I haven't seen any dates for the "Hell is based on Greek mythology etc." Try actually reading my quotes from Jewish sources, scripture was provided.

Additionally the majority of church fathers were not Jewish, but Greek/Roman etc who would see JudeoChristianity through their cultural viewpoint when they spoke on it. It is a tall order to say it had no influence especially when sheol will ride upon the greek word hades or Tartarus for any Greek speaking person.

I didn't quote the ECF. Your claim is irrelevant unless you can prove, vice assume, that any of their beliefs were based on Greek anything? I have provided evidence all you can do is assume. Why would Christians retain their faith through 100s of years of persecution, even facing death, for not bowing down to pagan deities, willingly incorporate pagan beliefs?

Jordan Henshaw · Mar 16, 2018

Der Alter said:
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ”

None of this has anything to do with ECT vs Annihilationism.

Obviously, people who are about to get cast into a lake of fire are going to wail and gnash their teeth. Duh.

Yep, doing bad things to children who believe in God is pretty bad.

Ok?

Yep. It definitely would have been better if Judas was never born. He did some very terrible things.

How do you still think these verses refute Annihilationism? I really don't get it. It just doesn't make a lick of sense. Yep, it would have been better if Judas was never been born. OK. Let's move on. Yep, God will tell the wicked to depart from Him. Does that mean He will torture them forever? Nope. A class of first graders could tell you that. It's extremely obvious. Let's move on. Yep, people about to be executed may wail and gnash their teeth in anguish. Does that mean they will be tormented forever, class? "No." Good job guys.

Please help me understand how every ECT supporter has to believe that these verses somehow magically mean that people will be tortured forever. I think I might be starting to go insane.

It just doesn't make sense.

A verse talking about how it would have been better if Judas had never been born does NOT mean that Judas will be tortured forever.

It just DOESN'T. That is NOT what it says.

Someone please tell me I'm not going insane.

Jordan Henshaw · Mar 16, 2018

Der Alter said:
In Rom 16:26 Paul refers to God as “aionios,” therefore Paul considers “aidios” and “aionios” to be synonymous.

Um... really?

So if I call chicken tasty one day and call chicken spicy a week later, I now consider "tasty" and "spicy" to be synonymous?

So now if I call a habanero pepper very spicy, it must also be very tasty?

Last time I checked, that's not the way logic works.

Der Alte · Mar 16, 2018

Jordan Henshaw said:
None of this has anything to do with ECT vs Annihilationism.
Obviously, people who are about to get cast into a lake of fire are going to wail and gnash their teeth. Duh.
Yep, doing bad things to children who believe in God is pretty bad.
Ok?
Yep. It definitely would have been better if Judas was never born. He did some very terrible things.
How do you still think these verses refute Annihilationism? I really don't get it. It just doesn't make a lick of sense. Yep, it would have been better if Judas was never been born. OK. Let's move on. Yep, God will tell the wicked to depart from Him. Does that mean He will torture them forever? Nope. A class of first graders could tell you that. It's extremely obvious. Let's move on. Yep, people about to be executed may wail and gnash their teeth in anguish. Does that mean they will be tormented forever, class? "No." Good job guys.
Please help me understand how every ECT supporter has to believe that these verses somehow magically mean that people will be tortured forever. I think I might be starting to go insane.
It just doesn't make sense.
A verse talking about how it would have been better if Judas had never been born does NOT mean that Judas will be tortured forever.
It just DOESN'T. That is NOT what it says.
Someone please tell me I'm not going insane.

Standard "I'm right and you're wrong! Am too! Nuh huh!" argument.

Annihilationism Is Actually...Biblical

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