Are professed Christians who deliberately practice sin saved?

fhansen · Jan 26, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
It is interesting how so many non-Reformed think about this, considering the Reformed believe there is NO EXCUSE for sin, considering the Reformed believe in original sin and total depravity, that is sin effects the entire person mind, body, and soul, which includes the will and its desires. If anything, the Reformed take sin more seriously than the non-Reformed, so it is completely out of line to suggest that the Reformed make excuses for sin, or that it is a licence to sin, such accusations stem from pure ignorance or worse.

Ok? From the Reformed position does it matter, in terms of his eternal destiny, whether or not a true believer sins actually? That's the only question that needs to be answered regarding whether or not faith is taken to be a license to sin.

aiki · Jan 26, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
Paul is teaching on the LAW all the way back from the beginning of the letter. Chapter 7 is the culmination of that part of the letter. Then chapter 8 shows life not under the law, but in the Spirit.

What Paul wrote was not written in a way that indicates he was speaking exclusively of a past condition. And the passage from Romans 7 wasn't the only one I put forward.

Apologetic_Warrior · Jan 26, 2018

fhansen said:
Ok? From the Reformed position does it matter, in terms of his eternal destiny, whether or not a true believer sins actually? That's the only question that needs to be answered.

Of course it matters, and what matters even more is the atonement of Christ, and what it actually accomplished.

fhansen · Jan 26, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Of course it matters, and what matters even more is the atonement of Christ, and what it actually accomplished.

So then sin can continue to exclude us from God's Presence?

hedrick · Jan 26, 2018

I once went through Matthew (who has by far the most passages on judgement) to see what people were judged for. Here's my summary:

7 uselessness (no fruit, no taste, bad fruit)
7 reject Jesus and message, no faith, etc
2 failing to forgive
2 hyperbole (call someone fool, fail to amputate)
2 refuse to repent
1 going through broad gate
1 seeking to save your life
1 speaking against Holy Spirit
1 being evil rather than righteous
1 causing a child to stumble
1 shut others out of kingdom
1 hypocrites
1 mistreat others

Notice that Jesus is more concerned about positive impact (fruit) than sin, and the sins on the list involve causing problems for other people, not things like sexual impurity.

Sin creates problems, and we should deal with them. But on what separates us from God, I'd rather rely on Jesus' teaching. Jesus teachings that God will forgive anything except the sin against the Holy Spirit, even if we do the same thing seven times a day.

hedrick · Jan 26, 2018

planet_joe said:
Their body sins, but they themselves do not. That's why your body will die, while your regenerated spirit (ie., you yourself) will live forever.

Put those passages together, it should be obvious what's going on: for a born-again Christian, who they are is their new nature; their old nature isn't really them. The new nature doesn't sin. Paul spends time labouring this point when he spells out "I" in contrast to "I myself".

Huh? Your body has its own will? It's better to say, as you do in the other paragraph, that the new nature doesn't sin.

fhansen · Jan 26, 2018

hedrick said:
I once went through Matthew (who has by far the most passages on judgement) to see what people were judged for. Here's my summary:

7 uselessness (no fruit, no taste, bad fruit)
7 reject Jesus and message, no faith, etc
2 failing to forgive
2 hyperbole (call someone fool, fail to amputate)
2 refuse to repent
1 going through broad gate
1 seeking to save your life
1 speaking against Holy Spirit
1 being evil rather than righteous
1 causing a child to stumble
1 shut others out of kingdom
1 hypocrites
1 mistreat others

Notice that Jesus is more concerned about positive impact (fruit) than sin, and the sins on the list involve causing problems for other people, not things like sexual impurity.

Sin creates problems, and we should deal with them. But on what separates us from God, I'd rather rely on Jesus' teaching. Jesus teachings that God will forgive anything except the sin against the Holy Spirit, even if we do the same thing seven times a day.

Sure, but not without a change of heart again, not without repentance. We don't enter heaven sinning willy-nilly.

redleghunter · Jan 26, 2018

hedrick said:
I once went through Matthew (who has by far the most passages on judgement) to see what people were judged for. Here's my summary:

7 uselessness (no fruit, no taste, bad fruit)
7 reject Jesus and message, no faith, etc
2 failing to forgive
2 hyperbole (call someone fool, fail to amputate)
2 refuse to repent
1 going through broad gate
1 seeking to save your life
1 speaking against Holy Spirit
1 being evil rather than righteous
1 causing a child to stumble
1 shut others out of kingdom
1 hypocrites
1 mistreat others

Notice that Jesus is more concerned about positive impact (fruit) than sin, and the sins on the list involve causing problems for other people, not things like sexual impurity.

Sin creates problems, and we should deal with them. But on what separates us from God, I'd rather rely on Jesus' teaching. Jesus teachings that God will forgive anything except the sin against the Holy Spirit, even if we do the same thing seven times a day.

You bring out an important point. Most of what you listed is due to a cold hard heart. Where in regeneration we see God removes the heart of stone and gives us a heart of flesh. Good points Hedrick!

redleghunter · Jan 26, 2018

fhansen said:
Sure, but not without a change of heart again, not without repentance. We don't enter heaven sinning willy-nilly.

That's the 'package' so to speak of being a new creation.

Ezekiel 36: NKJV
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Neogaia777 · Jan 26, 2018

Lily of Valleys said:
Why or why not? Please explain with the support of the scripture.

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB)

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? (Romans 6:1-2 NASB)

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? (Romans 6:15-16 NASB)

No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:6-9 NASB)

I smoke cigarettes, am I going to hell for that...?

fhansen · Jan 26, 2018

redleghunter said:
That's the 'package' so to speak of being a new creation.

Ezekiel 36: NKJV
25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Ok, so then we can expect to triumph over actual sin to the extent that we remain in Christ and He in us? I can go with that.

fhansen · Jan 26, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
I smoke cigarettes, am I going to hell for that...?

What if you beheaded people?

Neogaia777 · Jan 26, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
I smoke cigarettes, am I going to hell for that...?

I've gone through a lot of changes personally, in my life though, heart changes, mind changes...

I've had to put away much of my past behavior and who I was in the past, but... Cigarettes, didn't change...

Am I gonna go to hell, as an unrepentant sinner, who habitually sins...

(Btw, I think we all do and we all are (unrepentant sinners who habitually sin, or just people who habitually sin at least...)

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Jan 26, 2018

fhansen said:
What if you beheaded people?

What if I was born a Muslim, into a Muslim Islamic believing household...?

redleghunter · Jan 26, 2018

fhansen said:
Ok, so then we can expect to triumph over actual sin to the extent that we remain in Christ and He in us? I can go with that.

Christ triumphed over sin. That's the important point.

Paul goes into detail the heart of the regenerated soul as opposed to the soul still in bondage to sin and the flesh:

Romans 8: NKJV

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.

1stcenturylady · Jan 26, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
So – just so I can be sure I get what you are saying straight:

You believe the Holy Spirit draws a person to the Son.

Then they come to the Son having been given to the Son by the Father.

Then they turn their life over to Christ.

Then some time after giving their life over to Christ (like 30 years in your case) the Holy Spirit enters the person and they are saved.

What exactly must a person do to be saved other than responding to the Spirit's drawing, coming to the Son, believing on Him, and giving their life over to Him?

I see that you are charismatic – so am I. Are you perhaps equating being filled with the Spirit with the Spirit’s sealing unto salvation?

Repentance is required. That's what I hadn't done for 30 years.

It is interesting that not one prayer was answered during those 30 years, but every prayer was answered after being filled with the Spirit.

Der Alte · Jan 26, 2018

Neogaia777 said:
I smoke cigarettes, am I going to hell for that...?

No but you can get to heaven a lot sooner or so I have heard.

1stcenturylady · Jan 26, 2018

SkyWriting said:
Here are the scriptures that show the life of a true believer:

Galatians 5:14
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Matthew 22:36-40
“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

Luke 10:27
And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”

Mark 12:31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Leviticus 24:19
If anyone injures his neighbor, as he has done it shall be done to him,

What Does the Bible Say About True Believers? - OpenBible.info

I didn't read the link, but I agree with your choice of verses.

Neogaia777 · Jan 26, 2018

1stcenturylady said:
Repentance is required. That's what I hadn't done for 30 years.

Is repentance, a one time thing, or designed to be a lifelong practice of the believer, to keep them repentant and humble...?

Neogaia777 · Jan 26, 2018

Der Alter said:
No but you can get to heaven a lot sooner or so I have heard.

Good one... True...

God Bless!

Are professed Christians who deliberately practice sin saved?

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