When did Mary's hymen break?

1stcenturylady

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No where does it say that Joseph was to consummate the marriage bed. She was to stay a virgin dedicated to her only Son the Incarnate God.

The Bible names her children (plural). But if you want to believe the RCC or Orthodox on that, it is not a big deal. I choose scripture over any falsely based traditions.
 
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SolomonVII

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I agree.
The idea that virginity, especially in the case of Mary, imho, has absolutely nothing to do with the condition of body parts but a condition of faithfulness to God in that area of one's life.
I am a Catholic, who at least nominally accepts Catholic teachings, and sometimes in a less nuanced way than even the current pope does.

I can understand how the theology of the Virgin Birth, and the Resurrection of the Body, the Body and Blood of Christ, and so much of Catholic and Christian belief, holds deep personal meaning for us about who we are and where we are going, and what kind of beings we strive to be.
But when I began to listen to Catholics here begin to explain, for example, the ever Virginity of Mary in terms of the kindly birth of Jesus ever so gently stretching the membranes of the hymen with nary a tear in the delicate fabric, there is something inside of me that just balked.

There can be no spiritual or theological significance to this kind of discussion. To me, it is like Christians discussing if Seth and Cain married their sisters. There is no serious theological discussions that can be made from such queries.
We need to be better than that.
 
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AlexDTX

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So you see the word doesn't mean that God commanded Joseph to have sex with Mary. It doesn't even mean she had sex with Joseph.

Mat_13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

How did Mary have these other children?
 
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RDKirk

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There can be no spiritual or theological significance to this kind of discussion. To me, it is like Christians discussing if Seth and Cain married their sisters. There is no serious theological discussions that can be made from such queries.
We need to be better than that.

I think this a lot around here.
 
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joshua 1 9

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If Mary's hymen was intact, and I believe it was since that is the medical definition of virginity, then it had to break when Jesus was born, hence my question.
So you are saying that Jesus could pass through a door but he could not pass through Mary's hymen? Once the hymen is broken there is no longer evidence for her virginity.
 
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joshua 1 9

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How did Mary have these other children?
These were children that Joseph had from a previous marriage. Most were grown and married. Only James was 12 years old and Mary took good care of him. Mary made a covenant with God to remain a virgin all of her life. She was given Joseph in marriage so she could maintain her virginity. At the time girls were given in marriage at the age of 12. Most were happy to begin their life with their new husband.
 
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Phil 1:21

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These were children that Joseph had from a previous marriage. Most were grown and married. Only James was 12 years old and Mary took good care of him. Mary made a covenant with God to remain a virgin all of her life. She was given Joseph in marriage so she could maintain her virginity.
Scriptural reference please. Thanks.
 
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klutedavid

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I always assumed that when the Holy Spirit came upon Mary for the conception of Christ that it was a supernatural implantation that did not break the hymen. Then I realized that if it was not broken at conception, that meant Jesus had to break it with his head at his birth. Apart from the angels and shepherds coming to see the baby born, there is no indication in Scripture that his birth was out of the ordinary.

Years ago I read a marvelous book called, Why the Hymen? by Sheila Cooley. In that book she explains that the breaking of the hymen was the blood covenant of a marriage. Cloths were laid under the bride on her honeymoon night to catch the blood to prove that she was a virgin. So the consummation of marriage was traditionally a blood covenant, assuming the bride was a virgin.

So the question crossed my mind while thinking about this, "If the head of the baby Jesus broke the hymen to come out, was that a blood covenant with Mary somehow?

I have no answer for this, so I am asking for everyone's thoughts on the topic. Thank you for your feedback.

Post Script.
It is apparent that people misunderstand my question. I am not asking what constitutes virginity in a woman, I asked the question if the hymen were broken by the head of Jesus did that constitute some kind of covenant with Mary?

I referred to Sheila Cooley's book, but it is clear that readers need more information. She draws upon the story of the covenant God makes with Abraham in Genesis 15:9 through :17 where Abraham cuts a heifer in half and the lamp of God passes through it. This is a blood covenant since the heifer had to be slaughtered. From this passage she draws the conclusion that blood spilled with the passing through the flesh is the covenant act. Therefore when a man marries a virgin and consummates the marriage on the honeymoon, the hymen breaks and spills blood while the act of intercourse is the passing of the flesh through the flesh.

If Mary's hymen was intact, and I believe it was since that is the medical definition of virginity, then it had to break when Jesus was born, hence my question.
Hello Alex.

There is only one, new covenant specified in the early records of Christianity.

If God has some other special covenant with Mary, this covenant was probably added at a later stage. The letters of Paul seem to lack any mention of Mary.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Which has nothing to do with any of your assertions. Please try again.
That is the traditional interpretation but if YOU do not want to interpret it that way, that is fine with me. The fact remains that there is so little actual matter in our Body so that the only thing that keeps us from walking through a door or wall is the energy surrounding the atoms. Ask any college student to explain physics for you. What about the time that Jesus was walking on water, do you have an alternative explanation for that also?
 
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Phil 1:21

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That is the traditional interpretation but if YOU do not want to interpret it that way, that is fine with me. The fact remains that there is so little actual matter in our Body so that the only thing that keeps us from walking through a door or wall is the energy surrounding the atoms. Ask any college student to explain physics for you. What about the time that Jesus was walking on water, do you have an alternative explanation for that also?
What on earth are you talking about? I asked you for scriptural references for your below post. You cited one for Christ appearing post-resurrection. Can you please stay on topic?

These were children that Joseph had from a previous marriage. Most were grown and married. Only James was 12 years old and Mary took good care of him. Mary made a covenant with God to remain a virgin all of her life. She was given Joseph in marriage so she could maintain her virginity. At the time girls were given in marriage at the age of 12. Most were happy to begin their life with their new husband.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Phil 1:21

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Still waiting for your scriptural citations for the following...
These were children that Joseph had from a previous marriage. Most were grown and married. Only James was 12 years old and Mary took good care of him. Mary made a covenant with God to remain a virgin all of her life. She was given Joseph in marriage so she could maintain her virginity. At the time girls were given in marriage at the age of 12. Most were happy to begin their life with their new husband.
 
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AlexDTX

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So you are saying that Jesus could pass through a door but he could not pass through Mary's hymen? Once the hymen is broken there is no longer evidence for her virginity.
Jesus had no miraculous power until the baptism at the river Jordan.
 
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AlexDTX

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These were children that Joseph had from a previous marriage. Most were grown and married. Only James was 12 years old and Mary took good care of him. Mary made a covenant with God to remain a virgin all of her life. She was given Joseph in marriage so she could maintain her virginity. At the time girls were given in marriage at the age of 12. Most were happy to begin their life with their new husband.
What evidence do you have to support the view that Joseph was married once before? You sound like a Catholic.
 
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AlexDTX

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Hello Alex.

There is only one, new covenant specified in the early records of Christianity.

If God has some other special covenant with Mary, this covenant was probably added at a later stage. The letters of Paul seem to lack any mention of Mary.
I know. However, this speculation on my part is based upon a concept detailed by Sheila Cooley.
 
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joshua 1 9

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What evidence do you have to support the view that Joseph was married once before? You sound like a Catholic.
Yes, exactly, this is what the Catholics believe to be true. What is the protestant story of Joseph based on?
 
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joshua 1 9

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If God has some other special covenant with Mary
Mary established a covenant with God that she vowed to serve Him and remain a virgin all of her life. Which is the question this thread raises. If the hymen is evidence of virginity then how could Mary still be a virgin after giving birth to Jesus?
 
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