They don't. They tinker with ideas about string theory and multiverses to help them discover why the universe is the way it is, period. You seem to have the notion that they do it in order to dispose of God. But a God who can be disposed of in that way is not worth worshipping.
When I say end up here I mean that the earth was a planet that had the right conditions for life compared to other hostile places. A plant can grow in a lot of places despite things like a road because it is the enviroment of the right amount of sunlight, atmosphere, water and soil. Maybe the road is the invasive factor in the plants natural enviroment just like it is for animals who end up as road kill.
I am saying that if puddle example is such a powerful and simple rebuttal of the fine tuning argument then why is it not used by scientists but instead they resort to scientific hypothesis such as the multiverse. I would say that this is because they realize that the puddle example is not a good rebuttal becuase it does not meet the scientific criteria. Not that multiverses do either.
People will use anything to make their point.
Yes I acknowledge all the different views about fine tuning. The point is these scientists also do not have the need to disprove the fine tuning of the universe to defend their atheistic beliefs either. They just acknowledge what is.You're aware all those people have no belief in Gods or supernatural deities, right? It's almost as if they understand the subject matter so well that they don't have to fill in some hole of knowledge and/or ignorance with a stop-gap measure, or something...
Thanks for the concern. I do understand the multiverse idea but I am saying if we can accept such an idea which means we are introducing ideas that go beyond the classic criteria for measuring things and brings in unmeasurable possibilities then why not the possibility of a realm that may be where a intelligent agent exists. It would just be another possibility in amoung unlimited possibilities.
Yes I agree but that needs to be verified for one and it can also imply the possibility that there is a realm/dimension where there are spiritual beings. If we include quantum physics there can be all sorts of possibilities.
Yes I understand this, but it needs to be directly verified scientifically.
Actually that has already happened in this universe.lol!
Yes that is why the multiverse has been used as a counter to the fine tuned argument. And yes if there is life on other planets in our universe it would make ours less special. But all this has to be verified. On the other hand if there is only our universe and there is not other intelligent conscious life like us then this leads us to ask why and how can this be.
This does not change the fact that for any given time all things rely on each other and can be affected by what happens in their enviroments. That is probably a big factor in why species go exstinct. At present human activity is wiping out species faster than they can adapt. That has a knock on effect.
I just think the way life can adapt to their enviroments is more directed than is made out by adaptive evolition of Neo Dawinism. Adaptation is only a small part of how life can change and adapt. Evidence is coming from other fields like developmental biology, genomics, epigenetics, ecology and social science
I know you are implying the "believe and be saved" thing, but as you recall, if belief was entirely a choice, I'd be a believer. So, yes, that would be nice, too bad that isn't what your religion offers.
So heaven, air and land were created from water, which doesn't conform with Science then, Does it? FAIL!
Science is as "willingly ignorant" of some supposed firmament as it is "willingly ignorant" of inter-dimensional universe-creating space pixies, and as you just noted, doesn't agree with Science because of it, so FAIL!!!
No evidence of such a thing, and evidence we do have shows Dinosaurs before Grass, which means it doesn't agree with Science, so it still FAILS!
No mistake, we have the fossils and DNA evidence - and even if you are right and Science is wrong (which isn't the case at all, I'm afraid), it still means it disagrees with Science, so it STILL FAILS!
Science says otherwise, so MORE FAILS - even if your fantasy scenario was possible (it isn't btw)
No, I was helping you understand what it actually says. Do you agree that Genesis 1:22 tells of your God blessing all those living things mentioned in Genesis 1:21 to fill the seas (not Land) and the "fowl" (and only the "fowl") to multiply in the Earth?
Nobody knows who authored Genesis and nobody knows if we live in a Multiverse yet either. Feel free to point them out if you know differently. And I agree that nobody knew (bible writers included) where life originally came from, though given two thirds of the world is covered in water, then even if your Bible didn't say everything was individually and specially created after its kind, it wouldn't have been a surprise to know someone might've guessed that all life came from water.
I agree it is scientifically incorrect, that's why it's another Epic FAIL!!! Unless of course you can show where Genesis 1 and 2 uses a "future" tense instead of a "past" tense in its writing form? After all, God isn't the author of confusion...
Where are Viruses mentioned in the Bible? As for everything else, No evidence of Angels, and Man has always been able to kill a mosquito with a slap. Bible writers would've already considered themselves having dominion over all other living things (including Women too - how wrong was That assumption??
), so there's another scientifically inaccuracy in the Bible... FAIL!!!
Get in the program then!
Oh, cool.
Because the models we have that explain the observations we see, also predict these other things that you acknowledge scientists have proposed. It isn't that we don't know, therefore "Multiverse!" These are extrapolations of current models that are well-founded and useful. They could be wrong, so they are just ideas right now and not a "theory".
Well to be clear, nobody has accepted that idea just yet. it's literally only being talked about, and is not even really a hypothesis yet because there's no way for us to test it. It's just that the model of inflation we have for this universe predicts such a thing. We have no way (currently) to test it.
Well, an infinite amount of possibilities doesn't make impossibilities into possibilities. These things still have to be possible before being possible. What are "spiritual beings" and what is a "spirit" to start with? How do you verify these things are real?
Agreed. Anything to be considered science will have to be based on existing science, or verified scientifically. a Scientific Theory has to run the entire gamut of Science and the Scientific Method in order to have that title.
Actually that has already happened in this universe.
Awesome!What we wouldn't do though is see Scientists say "Well, it must be a God!", you'll find the answer would be "We don't know." - that's it. Again, and not saying you are, but the multiverse idea is borne out of the inflationary model of our universe, it isn't just a proposed idea to fill in a gap that needs filling.
Agreed we are the cause of the current mass extinction event and anthropomorphic climate change that's a big contributing factor to it. The thing is though, contemporary species that existed during the extinction of those other species, lived on so it is literally impossible that everything was perfectly in its place to enable everything else to live, because of the 98% extinction rate so far that everything else alive today necessarily had to survive to be here now.
So, this blog you refer to here isn't questioning the Theory of Evolution in any way, you know that, right? All they're doing here is talking about how the elements that operate within the Theory are categorised and explained. Nothing essentially changes - just the process by which the Theory is taught and explained, and how scientists work with certain aspects of it.
Why should I accept anything in the Bible as being authoritative?Get in the program then!
Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
The problem is when it is associated with quantum physics it allows for many possibilities and to defy the classical world of physics and scientists can speculate and introduce unverified ideas which can help them address difficult problems.
I am not saying it was but it is certainly used for that. If it is anything like the inflation theory then the theory is not purely becuase of scientific investigation. Becuase it is based in the quantum world there can be a lot of room to spectualte.
[/quote] The problem is with the theory that produces a multiverse. It is becuase inflation produces multiverse that its predictability is in question and therefore not scientific.
Maybe so but I tend to be a bit sceptical as this idea is based in the quantum world which gives a fair bit of room to spectualte and make things fit into what you want it to. As I noted above the idea of inflation was partly concieved to address problems with the big bang. It has aspects about it that are hard to prove and people can make things fit when you dont have to follow the normal rules for cause and effect.
Yes so my question is that why cant we then propose its such as a super intelligence or consciousness behind things or realms that are spiritual. Multiverse also stem from quantum physics where particles can act like waves and lead to branching off into other possibilities. But wave function can also introduce the observer effect which then leads to the conscious oberver and therefore beyond the material world. This can then support consciousness which can then link in possibilities like a super intelligence behind what we see. So a case can be made for God in a indirect way just like it is made for the many worlds ideas. It just depends which way you want to view the outcomes of the quantum world.
What are the possibilities in the many worlds idea. It talks about all sorts of possibilities and in fact unlimited possibilities. When it talks about other dimensions and different physical paremeters a spiritual realm may just be an unusual set of parameters. On the other hand becuase the quantum world can be asociated with consciousness it introduces the non material which can be associated with a spiritual realm. So the possibility is there becuase a lot of quantum physics is looking at non materialism associated with the obersever effect. It is just a case of which road you want to go down.
Yes bt I think even when it becomes a theory it is not necessarily correct. The big bang theory had problems and still does. It relies on another theory in inflation that has problems which also introduces another theory the multiverse which has problems. When they all prop each other up there is a lot invested in these theories so scientists will find it hard to let go of them. They can overlook problems and put them on the back burner perhaps. This can stop them from seeing other possibilities becuase they will be more interested in finding ways to keep the current one propped up. Neo Darwinism and the new evolutionary synthesis comes to mind.
It seems inflation was partly formulated to deal with the problems of the big bang, aat l;east according to one of its developers.
Sorry I meant as far as the fine tuning argument is concerned. If there was only life on our planet then it would indicate that the earth was in a very special sweet spot where the parameters were specially set up just for us.
The earth may have been finely tuned to create life and allow it to live but that does not rule out entropy which can be caused by a number of factors. Plus life itself is not perfect, it is more about the allowance of it in the first place.
Yes but as it mentions it is about what is prioritised as more of an influence. Adaptive evolution has been over emphasized and there is a lot more going on besides that. Some choose to give natural selection all the credit and relegate the other processes to the side lines which evidence shows that the other processes are just as important if not more. Adaptive evolution emphasizes a blind process whereas the other mechanism are more about directed processes.
The problem is now that we are looking at the very beginning of things in the quantum world it can become hard to make predictions and get any direct evidence. That leaves it open to come up with a range of possibilities. They may not be theories but they become important ideas in that they explain the difficulties that are in current theories. Like dark energy helps counter gravity and explain the expanding universe when it has not been verified.
I'm not discounting things like that. It is just as we are moving into the quantum world (which Einstein did not like) we are seeing more theoretical physics and speculation which can sometimes be taken as fact.
It depends on how you use a God or intelligence in the equation. Some say that materialism may be a block to further discoveries and knowledge because it limits possibilities. I don't think scientists who believe in God will limit science so I think the real advantage is having an open mind. It seems as we move into the areas associated quantum physics which seems to just about everything nowadays there are more limits to what science can do and verify and therefore there may be other areas that can help us such as metaphysics.
