If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

ClementofA · Jan 3, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
What a silly thing to say IMO. Of course everything in God’s finite creation pales the light of infinity.

But put your hand on the stove for a minute and then tell me it was nothing.

What's silly is carrying on about this when my point was obvious. As is yours. It goes without saying.

Marvin Knox said:
The difference is His infinite holiness as compared to our offense against it. What God requires of us for our offense is His call to make since we cannot begin to understand the offense to such a God.

What about His infinite love, which is what He is, & what makes Him holy?

Marvin Knox said:
You are judging God by human standards. You cannot. His ways are not our ways.

What’s more you really are unwise to judge Him at all – something you seem eager to do.

His ways include "love your enemies".

I judge first of all by the Scriptures which teach universalism. Secondly, logic, reason & common sense also supports this, which is what this thread is about. In connection with that the OP quoted Jesus saying:

Lk.12:57
New American Standard Bible
"And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?
King James Bible
Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
Douay-Rheims Bible
And why even of yourselves, do you not judge that which is just?

Marvin Knox said:
It is the same in my view and God’s view as well. Every knee will bow to Him and acknowledge that His ways are right.

I have no idea how many people will be saved and how many will be lost. But none will be cursing God forever. They will undoubtedly be lamenting their sins against Him but they will not be cursing Him. They will, in all likelihoods be observing His holy nature and wishing they could be with Him if they had not sinned against His infinite holiness and then compounded it by rejecting His grace..

So you think their torments for all the endless ages of eternity will just be a "lamenting"? Why would God wait till they are doomed to sufferings for eternity to reveal the truth to them that His ways are right, including endless torments. It seems that a loving God should have done that before so they could make an informed choice.

Marvin Knox said:
Those volumes have failed to adequately explain the reasons God does some of the things He does.

Really? I look forward to your 100 page essay on that topic.

Marvin Knox said:
The point is that some of them did “work out”. If there is a chance that they would work out for anyone – it is only fair (humanly speaking) that God give them that chance before resorting to periods of torture to bring them to repentance.

There will be no Dante's Inferno "torture" chamber. Love Omnipotent isn't a Medieval Inquisitionist . The afterlife & the resurrection will give people plenty of "chances" & evidences, in addition to all those they already received while alive. People will be judged & receive correction & or punishment in accord with the light they received & their responses to it, e.g. works.

Marvin Knox said:
Besides – do you really think that confession and supposed repentance won by torture would be from the heart?

Not torture. Compare:

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor.5:4-5)

Marvin Knox said:
If you water board me enough I’ll say and do anything to escape more of it. How much more so the fires of Hell?

There's no proof the fires are physical or that such could harm a disembodied soul, or a body that would not die immediately if thrown into a lake of fire. Do you suppose a Loving God arranges it so that their flesh immediately comes back after being burnt off so they can be tortured for all eternity? Again, that is Dante's Inferno/Medieval Inquisitionist fantasy nonsense.

Marvin Knox said:
My “point” was and is that if Paul got a special visit on the road to Damascus it seems fair (again humanly speaking) that God give the same to Adolf Hitler before resorting to the fires of Hell to bring him around.

What makes you think Hitler won't be granted a Damascus road type of experience & a chance for salvation before being thrown in the lake of fire? Or that he hasn't already received such & is already saved? Or he was saved before he died, or at the moment of death?

Marvin Knox said:
Yes – one is infinity more holy than the other and therefore more offended by the sins of His creatures than the less holy one.

Maybe that one should get over his personal feelings & love His enemies as Jesus did & told His followers to do. After all, God is love.

Marvin Knox said:
Substitute the Holocaust or other earthly calamities such as the tower that fell on certain people that Jesus talked about for Hell and ask the same question.

It sounds like you need to do an internet search on subjects like "why does God allow suffering?" & "the problem of evil" & "is God able to work sufferings for good" & likewise. There's a ton that has been written on such with perfectly satisfactory explanations any normal person can understand. OTOH no one can adequately explain this:

"What kind of God would call billions of people into being, knowing that was the unimaginably horrible outcome? The words callous, selfish, and unloving came to mind for me.
Speaking of love..."

George MacDonald Saved My Life - George MacDonald Quotes - User Rated Quotes

***************************

"If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?"
"I don't believe in the good news of endless torments."
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"...non-Christians are punished forever for not receiving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Marvin Knox · Jan 3, 2018

ClementofA said:
What's silly is carrying on about this when my point was obvious. As is yours. It goes without saying.

What about His infinite love, which is what He is, & what makes Him holy?

His ways include "love your enemies".

I judge first of all by the Scriptures which teach universalism. Secondly, logic, reason & common sense also supports this, which is what this thread is about. In connection with that the OP quoted Jesus saying:

Lk.12:57
New American Standard Bible
"And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?
King James Bible
Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
Douay-Rheims Bible
And why even of yourselves, do you not judge that which is just?

So you think their torments for all the endless ages of eternity will just be a "lamenting"? Why would God wait till they are doomed to sufferings for eternity to reveal the truth to them that His ways are right, including endless torments. It seems that a loving God should have done that before so they could make an informed choice.

Really? I look forward to your 100 page essay on that topic.

There will be no Dante's Inferno "torture" chamber. Love Omnipotent isn't a Medieval Inquisitionist . The afterlife & the resurrection will give people plenty of "chances" & evidences, in addition to all those they already received while alive. People will be judged & receive correction & or punishment in accord with the light they received & their responses to it, e.g. works.

Not torture. Compare:

In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor.5:4-5)

There's no proof the fires are physical or that such could harm a disembodied soul, or a body that would not die immediately if thrown into a lake of fire. Do you suppose a Loving God arranges it so that their flesh immediately comes back after being burnt off so they can be tortured for all eternity? Again, that is Dante's Inferno/Medieval Inquisitionist fantasy nonsense.

What makes you think Hitler won't be granted a Damascus road type of experience & a chance for salvation before being thrown in the lake of fire? Or that he hasn't already received such & is already saved? Or he was saved before he died, or at the moment of death?

Maybe that one should get over his personal feelings & love His enemies as Jesus did & told His followers to do. After all, God is love.

It sounds like you need to do an internet search on subjects like "why does God allow suffering?" & "the problem of evil" & "is God able to work sufferings for good" & likewise. There's a ton that has been written on such with perfectly satisfactory explanations any normal person can understand. OTOH no one can adequately explain this:

"What kind of God would call billions of people into being, knowing that was the unimaginably horrible outcome? The words callous, selfish, and unloving came to mind for me.
Speaking of love..."

George MacDonald Saved My Life - George MacDonald Quotes - User Rated Quotes

***************************

"If God doesn't save all, is it because He can't or doesn't want to?"
"I don't believe in the good news of endless torments."
"...it doesn't say what most evangelizers of hopelessness want it to say in that regard either."
"...non-Christians are punished forever for not receiving grace, which doesn't seem very graceful to me."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

I hope that every fallen angel and every fallen man will be saved.

You don't need to convince anyone here about what a terrible doctrine Hell is. Any thinking Christian has already thought about it as much as you have and come to the same conclusions about it's terrible nature and the issues surrounding our belief in a good and loving God which come to mind when contemplating it.

The difference between you and us is that we simply believe God in spite of the difficulties we encounter with the doctrine.

But you have judged what you believe would be true about Him if the doctrine is true and come up with an alternative idea that is more soothing to your sensibilities.

Trouble is that it doesn't mesh with what the Lord and the scriptures teach. Would that it did.

Der Alte · Jan 4, 2018

ClementofA said:
. . . "What kind of God would call billions of people into being, knowing that was the unimaginably horrible outcome? The words callous, selfish, and unloving came to mind for me.
Speaking of love..."

Or what kind of God would call millions of people into being, knowing the unimaginable horrible outcome was to drown them old, young, ,men, women, children, infants? Or what kind of God would call thousands of people into being, knowing the unimaginable horrible outcome was to destroy all of them by fire, old, young, men, women, children, infants? The words callous, selfish, and unloving came to mind for me.

Oldmantook · Jan 4, 2018

Doug Melven said:
Where did you get the idea that I admitted Jesus is in the LOF?
Jesus does not have to be in the LOF so those in the LOF can be in His presence.
As I said before, one can be in a lake and another outside that same lake and they can still be in each others presence.

Reconciliation and justification are not the same things.
God did the reconciling through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
This is the Gospel. The Gospel must be received by faith to be of any profit. Romans 1:16, Hebrews 4:2
The rest of this statement is true. What I put in bold is not in any way shape or form a reasonable conclusion.

Finally the truth. And the Good News is they can repent and believe.

Discussion with you is fruitless. You may believe as you wish.

Doug Melven · Jan 4, 2018

ClementofA said:
I judge first of all by the Scriptures which teach universalism.

No, they don't. Many Scriptures have been shown to you that state not everyone will be saved. You just disregard them in favor of your logic.

ClementofA said:
Secondly, logic, reason & common sense also supports this,

Why don't we ask God what He thinks of man's logic.
1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death.

Oldmantook said:
Discussion with you is fruitless. You may believe as you wish.

That is because I know what I believe. I stand on the Rock of the Word of God.
Not on the wisdom of men.

Oldmantook · Jan 4, 2018

Marvin Knox said:
The same way the elect can be chosen before the foundation of the world by the Father to give to the Son and predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son and yet be unjustified because of their lack of faith for most of their lives even though Christ died for their sins at a point in time some 2000 years ago. The same way Christ can die for the sins of the world and many and perhaps most of the world will not be forgiven - either in this age or in the age to come.[/QUOTE}
It is interesting that you quote forgiven in this age or the age to come. At the time Jesus spoke those words, he was presumably referring to the Jewish age and the next age would be the church age. Any age or time period of forgiveness after that is open to speculation. He did not remove all possibility of forgiveness occurring after the church age since he only limited unforgiveness of blasphemy of the Spirit to these two ages. Your view if I understand correctly is that the souls in the LOF are punished/tormented forever. Given that view, how is it possible to employ your example of the elect being eventually justified after living most of their lives without faith? Yes, all of the elect do eventually get justified but none of those in the LOF ever get eventually reconciled because they are separated from God eternally according to your view. I think you are comparing apples with oranges.

Marvin Knox said:

Not my definition - God's definition. Take it up with Him.

Click to expand...

Marvin Knox said:

Apparently not true according to the above testimony from the Word of God.

Click to expand...

Marvin Knox said:

Again - apparently not from God's perspective - as He clearly has said.

Click to expand...

You would have to cite Scripture to bolster your claims.

Marvin Knox said:

Apparently all things will be reconciled to God through Christ's sacrifice. The question seems to be whether a person sill be reconciled in Christ as a sacrificed lamb or as a glorified Lion.

Click to expand...

The real question is what does Scripture teach about reconciliation. Without going into much detail I don't think you would disagree that reconciliation is about the atonement which involves making peace between God and man; removing the barrier and tension of sin which separates God and man, thus removing the penalty of spiritual death. Given that general definition those in the LOF are never reconciled to God since they are sentenced to spiritual death and destined for eternal punishment. No possibility of reconciliation - ever.
i

Marvin Knox said:

IMO - the same principle holds true here with universal salvation. You guys are presenting universal salvation as the necessary conclusion of the matter and I am saying that it can well be thought of in others ways. Therefore the subject of universal salvation is either still up for debate or is perhaps even shown to be incorrect.

Click to expand...

I'm not claiming that soteriology cannot be thought of in other ways as obviously other views exist. What I am claiming is that universal salvation according to my understanding best fits with the whole of Scripture. Others may disagree; that is why we have these discussions.

Oldmantook · Jan 4, 2018

Doug Melven said:
That is because I know what I believe. I stand on the Rock of the Word of God.
Not on the wisdom of men.

No one is infallible. So be it.

Marvin Knox · Jan 4, 2018

Oldmantook said:
Your view if I understand correctly is that the souls in the LOF are punished/tormented forever. Given that view, how is it possible to employ your example of the elect being eventually justified after living most of their lives without faith? Yes, all of the elect do eventually get justified but none of those in the LOF ever get eventually reconciled because they are separated from God eternally according to your view. I think you are comparing apples with oranges.

My example referred to the elect in this age. My point is that people can be “elected”, “predestined”, even “reconciled” by the work of Christ in time some 2000 years ago – and yet be “un-saved” until such time as they exercise saving faith.

I, for instance was all of those first 3 things, based on what God says about me, and yet not saved until many years into my life.

The point is that there is no logical reason why such a condition as “reconciled” could not be in force for eternity just as it was for me for those relatively few years.

Oldmantook said:
The real question is what does Scripture teach about reconciliation. Without going into much detail I don't think you would disagree that reconciliation is about the atonement which involves making peace between God and man; removing the barrier and tension of sin which separates God and man, thus removing the penalty of spiritual death. Given that general definition those in the LOF are never reconciled to God since they are sentenced to spiritual death and destined for eternal punishment. No possibility of reconciliation - ever.

Whatever you say about what reconciliation includes - God says different that He has already “reconciled” the world to Himself and now it’s us to implore the world to “be ye reconciled to God”.

I didn’t write the book obviously and I don’t get to apply some Webster definition to “reconciliation and build a doctrine based on that.

I have to try to systematically understand the doctrine based on what God says about reconciliation not what I think it must mean.

Now – if you were to substitute the word “justified” to the above analysis – I would likely agree with it. But “reconciliation” and “justification” are apparently not the same things from God’s perspective.

Oldmantook said:
I'm not claiming that soteriology cannot be thought of in other ways as obviously other views exist. What I am claiming is that universal salvation according to my understanding best fits with the whole of Scripture. Others may disagree; that is why we have these discussions.

I agree and that is why I try hard not to make these disagreements personal if I can help it. (I’m not always successful. But it seems that in this case I, and we, have been successful thus far.)

I see that “ClementofA” is getting a bit snippy in expressing his disagreement with my doctrine. It appears that He believes that I teach a doctrine of God’s nature which offends him and therefore He is starting to work in insults based on that offense.

I will likely have to break it off with him shortly since he is no longer relying on scriptural arguments but on his own logic as to what could and could not be done by a good and gracious God.

I doubt that his theology is very strong in so far as considering fully the fact that everything outside of God Himself is being done by the Son, for the Son, and consists of the Son – including the very “being” of you and I, the most vile sinner who ever lived including the devil, Auschwitz, Paradise, and Hell.

We have no reason to believe that that revealed fact about the nature of the "creation" vis a vis the creator is likely to change throughout the ages to come or eternity for that matter.

The Word of God and what He is doing is the exact representation of all that the Father is and all the Father knows including the knowledge of good and evil and the consequences of their employ in all of their forms - temporally and eternally.

You told me before that you spent some productive time in seminary and that you have been at this for a long time.

I can only assume that you have considered all other doctrines along with this particular one when you were building your theology. I know I have over the years.

I've learned that we shouldn't place other knowledge we have already gleaned about God and His ways from the scriptures on the shelf while we explore doctrines like Hell and what it means that the Son bore all of the sins of the world. We have to take them with us in our theological journey.

It appears that ClementofA has not done due diligence in developing a complete systematic theology - even though he cuts and pastes quite well.

No offense - but perhaps neither have you?

ClementofA · Jan 4, 2018

Doug Melven said:
No, they don't. Many Scriptures have been shown to you that state not everyone will be saved.

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." (EO scholar David Bentley Hart) Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

“I affirm that there is not in the whole voluminous code of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, from the beginning of Genesis, to the end of Revelation, one single passage,
one solitary text, in which the doctrine of the eternity of hell-torments is taught."

my threads:

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

Doug Melven said:
Why don't we ask God what He thinks of man's logic.
1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof is death.
That is because I know what I believe. I stand on the Rock of the Word of God.
Not on the wisdom of men.

Why don't we ask Jesus:

Lk.12:57
New American Standard Bible
"And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?
King James Bible
Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
Douay-Rheims Bible
And why even of yourselves, do you not judge that which is just?

And Paul:

Rom.2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA · Jan 4, 2018

Der Alter said:
Or what kind of God would call millions of people into being, knowing the unimaginable horrible outcome was to drown them old, young, ,men, women, children, infants? Or what kind of God would call thousands of people into being, knowing the unimaginable horrible outcome was to destroy all of them by fire, old, young, men, women, children, infants? The words callous, selfish, and unloving came to mind for me.

It sounds like you need to do an internet search on subjects like "why does God allow suffering?" & "the problem of evil" & "is God able to work sufferings for good" & likewise. There's a ton that has been written on such with perfectly satisfactory explanations any normal person can understand. OTOH no one can adequately explain this:

"What kind of God would call billions of people into being, knowing that was the unimaginably horrible outcome? The words callous, selfish, and unloving came to mind for me.
Speaking of love..."

George MacDonald Saved My Life - George MacDonald Quotes - User Rated Quotes

Doug Melven · Jan 4, 2018

ClementofA said:
"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." (EO scholar David Bentley Hart) Saint Origen | David Bentley Hart

No Scripture here, just a man who can't figure out why God would do something.

ClementofA said:
“I affirm that there is not in the whole voluminous code of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures, from the beginning of Genesis, to the end of Revelation, one single passage,
one solitary text, in which the doctrine of the eternity of hell-torments is taught."

You should open up the pages and read for yourself what is in there. You will find a lot of teaching about hell. Many of these verses have been shown to you, but you just deny that they are there. Or you do what I call "proper exigesis". That is where you take the words of a verse and dissect them and put them back together and in the end they say something completely different than what the Author intended.
Such as what you do with the words "olam" and "aionios".

ClementofA said:
Why don't we ask Jesus:

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.

Jesus didn't have a very high opinion of earthly wisdom either.

ClementofA said:
Lk.12:57
New American Standard Bible
"And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?
King James Bible
Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
Douay-Rheims Bible
And why even of yourselves, do you not judge that which is just?

I noticed again you take a verse out of context. This passage is talking about hypocrites who can't figure the simplest things out.

Luke 12:56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?
12:57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.

ClementofA said:
And Paul:

Rom.2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Did you just look up "thoughts" in a concordance and quote this verse?
How is this verse relevant to man's wisdom?

ClementofA · Jan 4, 2018

Doug Melven said:
Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.

Jesus didn't have a very high opinion of earthly wisdom either.

Paul quoted from unbelievers:

Did Paul quote pagan philosophers? | CARM.org

Mt 11:25 refers to revelation from God, not Scripture.

Has God revealed to you the truth of universalism:

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Or is it "hidden" from you:

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.

2tim_215 · Jan 4, 2018

Romans 9:14-23(KJV) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Who are we to question God's motives, that is if we truly have faith in His wisdom and mercy and love? Do we not trust Him? Or do we trust in the works of man instead?

Isaiah 29:12-16(KJV) And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
15 Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

ClementofA · Jan 4, 2018

2tim_215 said:
Romans 9:14-23(KJV) What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Keep reading:

Rom.11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

2tim_215 said:
Who are we to question God's motives, that is if we truly have faith in His wisdom and mercy and love? Do we not trust Him? Or do we trust in the works of man instead?

God is love, so His motive is always love. Endless punishment denies that. Please stop "questioning God's motives."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

2tim_215 · Jan 4, 2018

You're the one who seems to be questioning His motives by implying that He might be a "monster", or if you're just asking the question, the answer quite simply is No. Therefore, no need for any more verbiage.

Der Alte · Jan 4, 2018

ClementofA said:
It sounds like you need to do an internet search on subjects like "why does God allow suffering?" & "the problem of evil" & "is God able to work sufferings for good" & likewise. There's a ton that has been written on such with perfectly satisfactory explanations any normal person can understand. OTOH no one can adequately explain this: . . .

Meaningless deflection! Why should I do an internet search and read what a bunch of amateurs wrote who couldn't locate a Hebrew verb or parse a Greek verb if their life depended on it? My question is no more ridiculous than yours.

Der Alte · Jan 4, 2018

ClementofA said:
Keep reading:
Rom.11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
...

"That He MAY have mercy on all" NOT "will have mercy on all." The word translated "may have mercy" is the subjunctive mood, the mood of possibility and potentiality. To be "will have mercy on all" it must be in the indicative mood as in Romans 9:18.

ClementofA · Jan 5, 2018

Der Alter said:
"That He MAY have mercy on all" NOT "will have mercy on all." The word translated "may have mercy" is the subjunctive mood, the mood of possibility and potentiality. To be "will have mercy on all" it must be in the indicative mood as in Romans 9:18.

That is speaking of Love Almighty the Omnipotent. Who is more powerful & able to stop Him from being merciful to all?

Jn.3:16 uses the same language, he who believes "MAY" have aionios life. Is there any doubt those who believe WILL recieve aionios life? See what Bill Mounce says on that:

Is the subjunctive “shall” or “might”? (John 3:16) | billmounce.com

Rom.15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

9And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy; as it is written, For this cause I will confess to thee among the Gentiles, and sing unto thy name.

10And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with his people.

11And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.

12And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

13Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Der Alte · Jan 5, 2018

ClementofA said:
It sounds like you need to do an internet search on subjects like "why does God allow suffering?" & "the problem of evil" & "is God able to work sufferings for good" & likewise. There's a ton that has been written on such with perfectly satisfactory explanations any normal person can understand. OTOH no one can adequately explain this:
"What kind of God would call billions of people into being, knowing that was the unimaginably horrible outcome? The words callous, selfish, and unloving came to mind for me.
Speaking of love..."

Jejune deflection! Why would I want to do a 'net search and read a bunch of pseudo religious babble from amateurs who don't know an aorist from an aardvark? You must have missed the part where I said I bought the electronic edition of BDAG day before yesterday. If you have a reasononed response post it here and quit wasting my time.

Der Alte · Jan 5, 2018

ClementofA said:
That is speaking of Love Almighty the Omnipotent. Who is more powerful & able to stop Him from being merciful to all?
Jn.3:16 uses the same language, he who believes "MAY" have aionios life. Is there any doubt those who believe WILL recieve aionios life? See what Bill Mounce says on that:

One would be well advised to read their own links.

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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