Heaven catch-22

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The catch-22 of heaven


I work in retail and some guy came in and scattered church business cards all over the store just before closing. So as I was staying late to clean up the mess, I pondered the message of “hope” written on the cards. Why would I even want to go to heaven if nobody I like is going to be there? I guess heaven is full of people who think dumping paper all over the floor of a store at 10pm is a good idea, no thank you I’ll pass.


But then I was thinking: isn’t the whole point of heaven that everyone there is always happy? So I would be happy if I was there? So I’d be happy even though nobody I like is there? I’ll never see my friends or family again because they’re eternally burning in hell... but I’m happy anyway??!


Do I even want to be happy even if my loved ones are eternally burning in hell? Honestly no not really. That doesn’t sound good to me. I think I like having morals? Do you not have a brain when you’re in heaven? Like how does that work? But it HAS TO BE good because heaven = good all the time (heavenly in fact! Har har). Right?


I’m curious, what is the Christian response to this conundrum?

How do you resolve that problem?

Or is it not a problem for you because you only like people who will go to heaven?
 
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Winken

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The catch-22 of heaven


I work in retail and some guy came in and scattered church business cards all over the store just before closing. So as I was staying late to clean up the mess, I pondered the message of “hope” written on the cards. Why would I even want to go to heaven if nobody I like is going to be there? I guess heaven is full of people who think dumping paper all over the floor of a store at 10pm is a good idea, no thank you I’ll pass.


But then I was thinking: isn’t the whole point of heaven that everyone there is always happy? So I would be happy if I was there? So I’d be happy even though nobody I like is there? I’ll never see my friends or family again because they’re eternally burning in hell... but I’m happy anyway??!


Do I even want to be happy even if my loved ones are eternally burning in hell? Honestly no not really. That doesn’t sound good to me. I think I like having morals? Do you not have a brain when you’re in heaven? Like how does that work? But it HAS TO BE good because heaven = good all the time (heavenly in fact! Har har). Right?


I’m curious, what is the Christian response to this conundrum?

How do you resolve that problem?

Or is it not a problem for you because you only like people who will go to heaven?
John 5:24; Ephesians 2:8-9; John 3:16-17, Romans 10:8-13, Romans 8:1.
All your "conundrums" vanish!

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No the conundrum really doesn’t vanish. Those quotes illustrate precisely my conundrum. I understand that if you believe in Jesus you go to heaven and heaven is great. That’s what those quotes say, yep got it. But I would feel bad if I knew my loved ones were burning in eternal hell. So if I went to heaven I would feel bad. But you’re not supposed to feel bad in heaven (see quotes). Can you explain to me in words what I don’t understand about it.
 
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Winken

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No the conundrum really doesn’t vanish. Those quotes illustrate precisely my conundrum. I understand that if you believe in Jesus you go to heaven and heaven is great. That’s what those quotes say, yep got it. But I would feel bad if I knew my loved ones were burning in eternal hell. So if I went to heaven I would feel bad. But you’re not supposed to feel bad in heaven (see quotes). Can you explain to me in words what I don’t understand about it.

1 Corinthians 2:14-15.

To understand, you must believe. Romans 10:8-13.
 
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Yanni depp

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You nor i do not know if your loved ones are going to the lake of fire. Thats for God to decide.

But if youre so concerned about it, why not dedicate your life to trying to stop that from happening to your loved ones? Stop then from going to the lake of fire? Take up your cross and follow Him.

The "high road" that you are alluding to, does not seem as honorable as you are portraying it-by denying Gods love and saying "whats the point?" And then choosing to sit on the sidelines amd watch life happen.

Up to you tho.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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If God does not exist as you claim,why care about any of this? If God “ does “ exist, what makes you think you are smarter than He is.Chances are ,He knows “ exactly “ what He is doing.Like it or not, your complaining is like an ant shaking his fist at an oncoming freight train.Good luck with that.
 
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redleghunter

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The catch-22 of heaven


I work in retail and some guy came in and scattered church business cards all over the store just before closing. So as I was staying late to clean up the mess, I pondered the message of “hope” written on the cards. Why would I even want to go to heaven if nobody I like is going to be there? I guess heaven is full of people who think dumping paper all over the floor of a store at 10pm is a good idea, no thank you I’ll pass.


But then I was thinking: isn’t the whole point of heaven that everyone there is always happy? So I would be happy if I was there? So I’d be happy even though nobody I like is there? I’ll never see my friends or family again because they’re eternally burning in hell... but I’m happy anyway??!


Do I even want to be happy even if my loved ones are eternally burning in hell? Honestly no not really. That doesn’t sound good to me. I think I like having morals? Do you not have a brain when you’re in heaven? Like how does that work? But it HAS TO BE good because heaven = good all the time (heavenly in fact! Har har). Right?


I’m curious, what is the Christian response to this conundrum?

How do you resolve that problem?

Or is it not a problem for you because you only like people who will go to heaven?

For God it is all about us being reconciled with Him. He first loved us. For us it is to be in awe of this love in all humility.
 
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Buzz_B

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The catch-22 of heaven


I work in retail and some guy came in and scattered church business cards all over the store just before closing. So as I was staying late to clean up the mess, I pondered the message of “hope” written on the cards. Why would I even want to go to heaven if nobody I like is going to be there? I guess heaven is full of people who think dumping paper all over the floor of a store at 10pm is a good idea, no thank you I’ll pass.


But then I was thinking: isn’t the whole point of heaven that everyone there is always happy? So I would be happy if I was there? So I’d be happy even though nobody I like is there? I’ll never see my friends or family again because they’re eternally burning in hell... but I’m happy anyway??!


Do I even want to be happy even if my loved ones are eternally burning in hell? Honestly no not really. That doesn’t sound good to me. I think I like having morals? Do you not have a brain when you’re in heaven? Like how does that work? But it HAS TO BE good because heaven = good all the time (heavenly in fact! Har har). Right?


I’m curious, what is the Christian response to this conundrum?

How do you resolve that problem?

Or is it not a problem for you because you only like people who will go to heaven?
Personally, I do not see that the Bible does teach that man goes to live in a literal heaven of God. I see that God purposed that man (all men) would live and multiply on the the earth. And I see that what makes God trustworthy is that his purposes are as solid and dependable as the sun which replenishes a power of life to the earth and all on it. But if sin could alter God's purpose then God is not so dependable as the sun. If his purposes can change, we then have no reason to trust anything he says.

Yet, we see the same problem as you express even with everlasting life for the faithful here on earth, don't we?

As a parent who lost his only precious natural daughter to drugs I have to face the what ifs. What if God sees fit that I not see her again in the resurrection? And although the possibility is grievous to think about, I know that I have had to find ways of continuing to be happy without her literal presence, even now. And I know that it is possible to just accept what is without having to deceive myself as if God is obligated to restore her life. I know how to leave it in God's hands and that enables me not to have to think and vex about it.

I also know that time fades the severity of the pain of loss. And for that reason I feel I can trust what I am told at Revelation 21:4 "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."

I admit that I do not understand every tiny detail of things, but I have found that by trusting in God's goodness and knowing the joy I get in serving him, I need not labor those details. For even now my faith in him and my love for him and his ways comforts me of the very things you speak of which would otherwise cause me to live in grief.

No my friend, we suffer those things even now and if you cannot find a healthy way of dealing with them now so as to continue on enjoying life, you need to focus on that for now. Correct that and then you will understand.

I do not know how old you are, but you impress me as yet young, for as we get older in this life we have to learn to suffer the loss of many loved ones, friends and family, while yet continuing to enjoy living.
 
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Grace2022

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In heaven it will be peaceful. You will be yourself. No more tears or grief. All those who believe in Christ will be there.
Those who are misguided and who truly denied God will be elsewhere, their choice not Gods.
Take care of uour own salvation, do your best for others and pray for them. Otherwise be at peace. Heaven will be incredible.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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In heaven it will be peaceful. You will be yourself. No more tears or grief. All those who believe in Christ will be there.
Those who are misguided and who truly denied God will be elsewhere, their choice not Gods.
Take care of uour own salvation, do your best for others and pray for them. Otherwise be at peace. Heaven will be incredible.



Careful lily....watch this play out—- Pearls cast before swine as Jesus warned....they will attack what you say,then they will attack you....it never fails....just know what is coming down the road here.....God bless you
 
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FreeinChrist

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MOD HAT

Folks, read the site rules and the Statement of Purpose for this forum. The ONLY non-Christian allowed to post in this thread is the OP. A clean up will be done.

Also, responses must be in line with the site Statement of Faith.
 
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Grace2022

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Careful lily....watch this play out—- Pearls cast before swine as Jesus warned....they will attack what you say,then they will attack you....it never fails....just know what is coming down the road here.....God bless you

I know. Thanks though, have a lovely day. I am going to despite the cold. Peace be with you.
 
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Sarah G

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I, like many Christians, do not believe in eternal conscious torment. I don't think about what heaven will be like (other than a few seconds now and then) because spiritual life for me is really about avoiding causing suffering for myself and others in this lifetime. I don't think you will find a satisfactory response to this conundrum on a Christian forum. The greatest minds have fought with these questions since time immemorial so I don't think it is going to be answered in a thread started by a frustrated retail worker on an open internet forum :D Maybe it will though I don't know it kind of sounds like a parable now I think about it. Be blessed, keep seeking :twohearts:
 
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Sanoy

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When you say say the word happiness you think of what that might look like. You recognize some objective form to which life should relate to. The good that you enjoy in your life now, God created. The fellowship you desire, God invented. That is what heaven is, well really, that is what life after your resurrection will be. It will not be in some floaty cloud place. It will be on a restored earth. You will have a new family, but you will not forget your old life. The Bible says that God will wipe away our tears, so we will mourn their deaths. But we will also have bodies strong enough to get through it.

Christians have different views of hell based on their reading of scripture. Some believe it's eternal torment, other believe it's annihilation, that is the death of the body, and the death of the soul. I believe in annihilation. So we will mourn the loss of our friends much like we would when they died on earth.

What is good is not always what makes you happy. God created the feeling of sadness, because that is how someone should feel when another perishes. It was out of sadness for you that this man scattered those cards. And out of sadness for you that Christ died. Something is good when it refers to Gods nature. At the resurrection we will be images of Gods nature, doing what is good. And the nature of the world, and the one who deceives it, will be taken away.

You worry about mourning your loved ones in heaven, but God will mourn you, and every Christian who knows you will mourn you. The place for you will lie empty for all eternity. But neither you nor your friends need mourn if you tell them about Christ and they do not reject His promise.
 
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Shout out to Buzz B, Sarah G, and Sannoy for your thoughtful responses. Thanks!


Sarah G, I don’t think all of my life’s pondering will be answered here either lol, but I do like to hear different perspectives so I appreciate that you answered.


Blood Bought’s responses are the clearest to me. If you actually believe it’s good for the people you deem to be the swine* of earth to burn eternally in hell, then it certainly does remove the conundrum. No sadness at all. That’s incredibly disturbing to be, but it does make sense.


*what did pigs ever do to God anyway? (Don’t answer that, ignorance is bliss)
 
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ViaCrucis

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The catch-22 of heaven


I work in retail and some guy came in and scattered church business cards all over the store just before closing. So as I was staying late to clean up the mess, I pondered the message of “hope” written on the cards. Why would I even want to go to heaven if nobody I like is going to be there? I guess heaven is full of people who think dumping paper all over the floor of a store at 10pm is a good idea, no thank you I’ll pass.


But then I was thinking: isn’t the whole point of heaven that everyone there is always happy? So I would be happy if I was there? So I’d be happy even though nobody I like is there? I’ll never see my friends or family again because they’re eternally burning in hell... but I’m happy anyway??!


Do I even want to be happy even if my loved ones are eternally burning in hell? Honestly no not really. That doesn’t sound good to me. I think I like having morals? Do you not have a brain when you’re in heaven? Like how does that work? But it HAS TO BE good because heaven = good all the time (heavenly in fact! Har har). Right?


I’m curious, what is the Christian response to this conundrum?

How do you resolve that problem?

Or is it not a problem for you because you only like people who will go to heaven?

I think the conundrum is rooted in a popular misconception about Christian eschatology; one that is unfortunately popularized by many Christians.

For one, "heaven" isn't what the historic Christian faith looks forward to. By "heaven" here I mean "some place up there" with the usual gilded streets, pearly gates, and all that jazz; but I also mean in the sense of spending eternity as some disembodied ghost floating about blissfully in some happy sky pie by-the-by. The Christian religion, in its Scriptures, Creeds, and historic confessions and statements of faith consistently points to our hope and belief in resurrection. Christ rose from the dead, and that is what we hope for as well. We aren't looking to escape this world into some ethereal ever-after, but rather look forward to God setting His creation right, renewing and redeeming the entirety of creation. Both the Prophet Isaiah and St. John of Patmos (the author of the Revelation) describe this by speaking of a "new heavens and a new earth".

There is certainly plenty in the Bible that could be quoted, both from the Old and New Testament, but for my purpose here I'd like to simply focus on the historically authoritative statements in the Creeds say.

The Nicene Creed reads,

"We look forward to the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the age to come."

The Apostles' Creed reads,

"We believe ... in the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting."

Resurrection is at the heart of Christian hope. Death does not get the final say, life wins. Even as Jesus has been raised from the dead, so God is going to do for us the same, and indeed this victory of life extends to all creation. This ball of rock and water under our feet matters to God, every tree, every thing that crawls, creeps, walks, flies, swims, matters--God's creation matters. The entire universe matters. And the Christian Gospel is that God, in Jesus, is going about redeeming all things and making all things right. My salvation is not so that I can float away to "heaven" when I die, but that I am being healed and drawn back to God from sin and death, a reality which I receive now in faith, but hope for when Christ comes again and makes new all things.

So having put forward all of that, then we can talk about happiness and Hell.

C.S. Lewis once wrote that the thing about Hell is that "it is so very nearly nothing at all". "Hell" is a complicated concept in Christian theology, in large part because the Bible says so remarkably little about it, and also because there exists no singular, monolithic view of the subject in the history of the Church. That is to say, there really isn't such a thing as "the Christian view on Hell" so much as "the Christian views on Hell". The Church historically has a great deal to say dogmatically about our future hope, because the resurrection of the dead and the life of the age to come are of central importance. But Hell has no place in the Creeds of the Church, Hell is largely this matter that exists off in the periphery of Christian theology (a point that might seem strange given just how very important it is in modern popular Christian usage). But in reality Hell simply hasn't been that important in the history of Christian theology, and its significance lay chiefly in its contrast to our hope.

Now some have said Hell is a very actual place, the anti-Heaven to the popular conception of "heaven" as that place souls go after death to float about; and Hell is that place souls go after death to get flogged by demons day in and day out for the rest of eternity.

Some have said Hell is, in fact, the absence of the Divine Presence. That if the Christian hope is to dwell in the unapproachable light of God in the age to come, then Hell is its antithesis--Hell is not location or experience so much as the absence of location and the absence of experience.

Some have said that Hell is, in truth, the very same "place" and very nearly the same experience as "heaven". The difference is not where we are, or who we are with, the difference is entirely a matter of subjective response to the same stimulus. This is the view put forward by St. Isaac who says that God's love is impartial, He loves all alike and withholds His love from none, the person in Hell is not deprived of God's love, compassion, and goodness, but just the opposite. The person in Hell is surrounded by the brilliant light of God's grace, love, and kindness--and the person in Hell finds this an unbearable torment, in the same way that a person in this life feels when they have utterly betrayed a friend. For Isaac, the agony of Hell is the agony of remorse. The fires of Hell are nothing other than the flames of God's love kindled to all His creatures.

Some have said Hell will ultimately be empty.
Some have said Hell will definitely have some.
Some have said Hell will have many.
Some have said Hell will have few.
Some have said we cannot know any of these things one way or the other.

Some say God condemns men to Hell.

Some say men condemn themselves to Hell.

And there are very many who are very certain that they know precisely which of these is absolutely true and which are absolutely not true.

But there are very many who admit that we cannot hardly be certain of any of these things. For some of us, we bank on hope, not just hope for ourselves, but hope for others, for everyone, we even hope for the very worst of the worst among us. Hoping that, at the end when all is said and done and God is "all in all" (as St. Paul says) that love really, truly, actually does win--how that all looks is anyone's guess.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Grace2022

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Hi CryptoLutheran
Interesting.
Have you ever read near death experiences?
I have. I have read many people's accounts of heaven and hell. Many tell of meeting Jesus and being in heaven awhile and reluctantly having to return to life here. Others tell of hell and it is scary. They talk of cold darkness, horrible beings coming to take them away. I cannot dismiss these accounts. They sound sincere to me. Those writing these books cannot have done so lightly. People like Eben Alexander, a neuroscientist and former hardened atheist. His book is fascinating. He put his whole reputation on the line.
I think heaven is as blissful and beautiful as we might imagine, only even better. I also believe hell is a cold dark appalling place filled with all the souls who truly reject God. Why should it not be so? I think it makes perfect sense.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Hi CryptoLutheran
Interesting.
Have you ever read near death experiences?
I have. It to read many people's accounts of heaven and hell. Many tellvof meeting Jesus and being in heaven awhile and reluctantly having to return to life here. Others tell of hell and it is scary. They talk of cold darkness, horrible beings wantyg mmmjr

I don't put any stock in NDEs. The sorts of experiences people have almost always depend entirely on their own life experiences and perceptions. People have encountered various gods, or other religious figures--the Buddha for example--in such experiences; or have simply experienced an "otherworldly" light. The most obvious explanation for all of this is that the experience occurs entirely within the person's mind. Starve the brain of oxygen, and all sorts of crazy things happen as the brain tries to cling to life.

Long story short, such experiences should be regarded as theologically irrelevant, in my opinion.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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Shout out to Buzz B, Sarah G, and Sannoy for your thoughtful responses. Thanks!


Sarah G, I don’t think all of my life’s pondering will be answered here either lol, but I do like to hear different perspectives so I appreciate that you answered.


Blood Bought’s responses are the clearest to me. If you actually believe it’s good for the people you deem to be the swine* of earth to burn eternally in hell, then it certainly does remove the conundrum. No sadness at all. That’s incredibly disturbing to be, but it does make sense.


*what did pigs ever do to God anyway? (Don’t answer that, ignorance is bliss)



Jesus called them “swine”, not me, I would never be that mean,so take it up with Him not me. So much for the cartoony, myth of “ sweet,lovable “ Jesus. He called non- Jews “ dogs” and called Peter “ Satan”. If you find that “disturbing” that is good, it was meant to be.All the animosity for the poor pigs? Your guess is as good as mine. I suppose we both will remain “ignorant”. Yes. Ignorance is bliss,for a season.
 
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