Millennial Considerations

DavidPT · Dec 19, 2017

Truth7t7 said:
I believe rerevelation 19:20 suggest the beat and false prophet

Not what I'm asking though. When satan is cast into the lake of fire, is he physically cast in there, and is the place he is cast into a physical place? I have a reason for asking. That being this.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit

Compared with----

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

What I am trying to determine is this. Are you interpreting things in a consistent manner here? If the casting into the bottom pit doesn't involve a physical act nor a physical place, but that Revelation 20:10 does, why would that be?

Truth7t7 · Dec 19, 2017

DavidPT said:
Not what I'm asking though. When satan is cast into the lake of fire, is he physically cast in there, and is the place he is cast into a physical place? I have a reason for asking. That being this.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit

Compared with----

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

What I am trying to determine is this. Are you interpreting things in a consistent manner here? If the casting into the bottom pit doesn't involve a physical act nor a physical place, but that Revelation 20:10 does, why would that be?

I see the bottomless pit as being "Hell" a spiritual torment at the "Inner Earth" Ezekiel 32:18, not the "Lake Of Fire" in the new creation, after the resurrection takes place and final judgment. Death And Hell Delivered Up The Dead, Revelation 20:11-15

Will the wicked in the lake of fire in the new creation have resurrected bodies, Isaiah 66:24 suggest they will.

seventysevens · Dec 19, 2017

Truth7t7 said:
I see the bottomless pit as being "Hell" a spiritual torment, not the lake of fire after the resurrection takes place and final judgment.

Revelation 20:11-15

Please describe what spiritual torment would be like if you were in it?

LastSeven · Dec 19, 2017

DavidPT said:
Can you expand more on why you are concluding this has to mean Jesus returns at the end of the thousand years, not the beginning?

Because the restitution of all things happens at the end of the thousand years.

Marilyn C · Dec 19, 2017

seventysevens said:
Please describe what spiritual torment would be like if you were in it?

Hi SS,

I`ll have a go at that one. If I chose not to believe in the Lord Jesus and His great sacrifice for me, then after being judged at the Great White Throne I would not be given a new body like unto the Lord`s, or even a human body to live on earth. Thus I would be a spirit without a body. I would have all the desires my selfish self wanted, (mu own way forever) but without the means the ability of a body to express myself and enjoy all the benefit of - food, family, work, not being able to feel with my body or taste, or see beautiful scenes, or hear wonderful music, or see a loved one`s face.....you can add a multitude of other things I couldn`t enjoy.

The `fire` is God`s Holiness, His consuming fire, that burns up the wickedness and leaves the `spirit` to its self as it chose. Absolutely horrendous. such is the blindness of self.

regards, Marilyn.

LastSeven · Dec 19, 2017

Davy said:
Yeah, and didn't you see what I showed from 1 Cor.15 where Paul said that Jesus MUST reign til He has put all enemies under His feet?

1 Cor 15:25
25 For He must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
KJV

Of course he reigns until the end of death. That's what I've been saying all along. There is death during the thousand years and that's why I keep saying that the second resurrection is at the end of the thousand years because that's literally the end of death.

You keep bringing up these points as though I disagree with them, but if it's in scripture I can guarantee you that I agree with it.

Davy said:
He certainly is NOT reigning over His enemies during this present world, though some idiots like to make that lie up just to keep their doctrine tradition from men.

How can you say he's not reigning if he's seated on his throne and he has received all authority in heaven and on earth? How can you sit on a throne with all authority, and not reign? Please explain that to me.

LastSeven · Dec 19, 2017

DavidPT said:
It would likely mean He would be in a reigning position at that point, for one. But how did He initially get to that point? Didn't He first humble Himself, then endure until the end, the end being the cross in this case, and then He was rewarded after that? Why do Amils then think our reigning comes on a silver platter, and that we are already reigning before we have even endured to the end? The end being our death, or the 2nd coming of Christ, whichever one might come first.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, that would be my guess as to what this is connected with.

Why do we amils think we currently reign with Jesus? Because the Bible tells us so.

Ephesians 2:4-6
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

LastSeven · Dec 19, 2017

Stephen Mendes said:
I submit to you that 'we' have no power at all over the Devil..... rather it Christ, and the Name of Christ, that defeats Satan when it is wielded by a 'surrendered' saint.

Of course it's Christ who has the power, but if Christ is in us, we share in that power. Without Christ we are powerless.

LastSeven · Dec 19, 2017

seventysevens said:
I am sure that the beheaded Christians and those who are tortured unto death will have a different opinion than your interpretation, I would challenge you to say that to an ISIS soldier with a sword in his hand --
That scripture is meant for your eternal soul -immortal body when you get one

Power over devils does not mean we have power over ISIS fighters.

DavidPT · Dec 19, 2017

LastSeven said:
Why do we amils think we currently reign with Jesus? Because the Bible tells us so.

Ephesians 2:4-6
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

That's not meaning literally though if one is still physically alive on this earth.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

When John sees these as souls he is seeing the souls of those who have literally died physically. How then can Ephesians 2:4-6 be applied to them the same way it is applied to those still physically alive? One is to believe Ephesians 2:4-6 is meaning both non literal and literal at the same time?

seventysevens · Dec 19, 2017

LastSeven said:
Why do we amils think we currently reign with Jesus? Because the Bible tells us so

LastSeven said:
Power over devils does not mean we have power over ISIS fighters.

That is exactly the point , if you really had the power of reigning you would have power over ISIS soldiers , at the very least you would have the power to stop sinning entirely , but you can't stop sinning until you receive full power and authority that Christ will give you when you receive the glorified immortal body , until then you have very limited power .
The same mistake that people make when they say that the Kingdom of God is here , yes it is here but only in part as the Kingdom is not yet in full and complete until Jesus returns.
Consider when you file your tax returns , you may be entitled to $2000 in tax return , because you followed the rules but you can't spend it until you have received the check that takes the IRS 4 to 12 weeks to process and send you the check

DavidPT · Dec 19, 2017

LastSeven said:
There is death during the thousand years and that's why I keep saying that the second resurrection is at the end of the thousand years because that's literally the end of death.

What verse or verses prove to you that there is death during the thousand years? Per Premil there would definitely be death before the thousand years and after the thousand years. But that doesn't necessarily mean there has to be death during the thousand years also. It might be similar to this logic---satan is loose before the thousand years begins, and is loose after that expires. Does that mean he is also loose while he is bound a thousand years?

Premils also believe "the second resurrection is at the end of the thousand years because that's literally the end of death". Why does that only work for Amils but not Premils too?

Stephen Mendes · Dec 19, 2017

jgr said:
Not these Christians.

Luke 10
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

I'm not aware that God withdrew that power from His Church. Are you?

Those Christians are not representative of the ones living today.

And you could think about why people simply do not have that power today..... in fact the spiritual power of the church today is at an all time low.....

I do not know of any currently living Christians who have the power of the Apostles ...... the shadow of Peter and the handkerchiefs of Paul were sufficient to heal people..... both Paul and Peter were instrumental in 'bringing people back from the dead' (Dorcas and the young man who fell from the upstairs window while Paul was talking).

I hear a lot of people proclaiming to have power...... and purporting to wage 'spiritual warfare' ...... but frankly I do not see much evidence of it.

Don't go by 'manifestations'..... the Catholics have lots of that..... statues that bleed.... apparitions of Mary.....

demons just love to play with humans....

Lots of these 'so-called' deliverances..... not really deliverances at all..... just demons playing with humans.

People just love to see 'signs and wonders'..... people love to feel they have 'power'...... this is a weakness of humans that the familiar spirits can exploit.

The REAL POWER belongs to God and He does not give it to a human just because they claim to be christian or because they want it.

As I said before surrender to the perfect Will of God and He will work through you to accomplish whatever He wishes you to accomplish, in most cases it will not be signs and wonders, but will be just as important to Him...... that is the way of the Cross..... that's what Jesus did and the Apostles followed Him to their deaths.

The way of the Cross is neither glamorous nor sought after..... people want a good time ..... wealth, health , power and the so-called 'good life'..... you think it's only worldly people that want that ? ..... think again.

Lots of christians claiming to have power today..... but their lives reveal otherwise..... sadly many of them are deceived by various spirits.... to the detriment of themselves and their followers.

'By their fruits ye shall know them'

DavidPT · Dec 19, 2017

LastSeven said:
Because the restitution of all things happens at the end of the thousand years.

I was sincerely interested in knowing why you conclude that it has to mean that, in the event you might say something I had never thought to take into consideration before. If this is your idea of expanding on something, I guess I will never bother asking you to do that again.

Truth7t7 · Dec 19, 2017

seventysevens said:
Please describe what spiritual torment would be like if you were in it?

Scripture in Luke 16:22-24 teaches the torment of hell is like the flame of fire.

Do you deny a literal present hell and future lake of fire?

Truth7t7 · Dec 19, 2017

Stephen Mendes said:
Those Christians are not representative of tMended doesn'ts living today.

And you could think about why people simply do not have that power today..... in fact the spiritual power of the church today is at an all time low.....

I do not know of any currently living Christians who have the power of the Apostles ...... the shadow of Peter and the handkerchiefs of Paul were sufficient to heal people..... both Paul and Peter were instrumental in 'bringing people back from the dead' (Dorcas and the young man who fell from the upstairs window while Paul was talking).

I hear a lot of people proclaiming to have power...... and purporting to wage 'spiritual warfare' ...... but frankly I do not see much evidence of it.

Don't go by 'manifestations'..... the Catholics have lots of that..... statues that cry blood..... apparitions of Mary.....

demons just love to play with humans....

Lots of these 'so-called' deliverances..... not really deliverances at all..... just demons playing with humans.

People just love to see 'signs and wonders'..... people love to feel they have 'power'...... this is a weakness of humans that the familiar spirits can exploit.

The REAL POWER belongs to God and He does not give it to a human just because they claim to be christian or because they want it.

As I said before surrender to the perfect Will of God and He will work through you to accomplish whatever He wishes you to accomplish...... that is the way of the Cross..... that's what Jesus did and the Apostles followed Him to their deaths.

The way of the Cross is neither glamorous nor sought after..... people want a good time ..... wealth, health , power and the so-called 'good life'..... you think it's only worldly people that want that ? ..... think again.

Lots of christians claiming to have power today..... but their lives reveal otherwise..... sadly many of them are deceived by various spirits.... to the detriment of themselves and their followers.

'By their fruits ye shall know them'

The same Holy Spirit that empowered the Apostles, lives in the believer today.

Just because Stephen Mendes doesn't see the miracles, doesn't mean they're not taking place.

Its the false acts of miracles such as the "Benny Hinn" show, that has tarnished your view of scriptural truth.

The Baptist have it all wrong, the acts of miracles are alive and well, just as in the Apostles day.

jgr · Dec 19, 2017

Stephen Mendes said:
Those Christians are not representative of the ones living today.

And you could think about why people simply do not have that power today..... in fact the spiritual power of the church today is at an all time low.....

I do not know of any currently living Christians who have the power of the Apostles ...... the shadow of Peter and the handkerchiefs of Paul were sufficient to heal people..... both Paul and Peter were instrumental in 'bringing people back from the dead' (Dorcas and the young man who fell from the upstairs window while Paul was talking).

I hear a lot of people proclaiming to have power...... and purporting to wage 'spiritual warfare' ...... but frankly I do not see much evidence of it.

Don't go by 'manifestations'..... the Catholics have lots of that..... statues that cry blood..... apparitions of Mary.....

demons just love to play with humans....

Lots of these 'so-called' deliverances..... not really deliverances at all..... just demons playing with humans.

People just love to see 'signs and wonders'..... people love to feel they have 'power'...... this is a weakness of humans that the familiar spirits can exploit.

The REAL POWER belongs to God and He does not give it to a human just because they claim to be christian or because they want it.

As I said before surrender to the perfect Will of God and He will work through you to accomplish whatever He wishes you to accomplish...... that is the way of the Cross..... that's what Jesus did and the Apostles followed Him to their deaths.

The way of the Cross is neither glamorous nor sought after..... people want a good time ..... wealth, health , power and the so-called 'good life'..... you think it's only worldly people that want that ? ..... think again.

Lots of christians claiming to have power today..... but their lives reveal otherwise..... sadly many of them are deceived by various spirits.... to the detriment of themselves and their followers.

'By their fruits ye shall know them'

Sounds like you need to expand your horizons. A lot.

Been to any missions conferences lately? Talk to any missionaries who labor in areas of the world where spiritual warfare is an ongoing reality? Talk to any who minister to and in the persecuted Church? Familiarize yourself with what God is doing in places and circumstances around the world where His power and deliverance are demonstrated in miraculous ways through His people?

He's building His Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it, notwithstanding Satan's attempts.

There's a whole other Church out there for you to discover.

LastSeven · Dec 19, 2017

DavidPT said:
That's not meaning literally though if one is still physically alive on this earth.

It doesn't mean it literally? It literally says that we are seated with Christ on the throne. What do you think it means?

DavidPT · Dec 19, 2017

LastSeven said:
It doesn't mean it literally? It literally says that we are seated with Christ on the throne. What do you think it means?

I mean as in literally, where one is literally physically, bodily, present there in heaven with Christ where He is currently dwelling. Maybe I should have said physically instead. That passage can only be understood in a spiritual sense. It is not meaning physically, thus why I asked how this same passage is applicable to saints that have physically died.

Marilyn C · Dec 20, 2017

Stephen Mendes said:
Those Christians are not representative of the ones living today.

And you could think about why people simply do not have that power today..... in fact the spiritual power of the church today is at an all time low.....

I do not know of any currently living Christians who have the power of the Apostles ......'

Dear bro,

The Lord Jesus Christ is still Head of His Body and I would encourage you to lift your vision higher. The `church` the called out ones, the Body of Christ, is not what I think you are referring to. You are talking about man`s organisations that can be measured with `bottoms` on seats. No way is that the Body of Christ.

You realise that you personally cannot see what Christ the Head is doing through His Body, all through the centuries and across the globe. Those through whom the Lord works in great miracles are NOT going to publish them abroad, but are humble servants of the Lord.

The false on the other hand is all to clear as they look for the spot light.

Blessings, Marilyn.

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