Can anyone provide an alternative to determinism or non-determinism?

looking_for_answers_ · Dec 14, 2017

Linktogunner said:
I don't think the 'cause and effect' is that linear when dealing with free will. Something my girlfriend says could cause me to respond in many different ways, for example. Or nor at all... either way the preceeding 'cause' is just there, it's up to me how I choose to respond.

All things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose.

Different ways - at different times. Each different time, you are in a different state. Thus the different responses.

Radagast · Dec 14, 2017

Tree of Life said:
I think that within Biblical theology, compatibalism is a good option.

In my view, the only option. If I genuinely want to do the acts I do (whether they are determined or not), then I am responsible for those acts.

Radagast · Dec 14, 2017

looking_for_answers_ said:
They are not random. So if someone were capable of viewing the rules by which I make decisions, could they not predict what decisions I will make with 100% accuracy?

I find that my close friends can predict my decisions already.

looking_for_answers_ · Dec 14, 2017

Radagast said:
I find that my close friends can predict my decisions already.

Similarly, studying programming and eventually studying AI (as a hobby) makes me wonder what this discussion will look like in the next few decades when robots are indistinguishable from humans

nonaeroterraqueous · Dec 14, 2017

looking_for_answers_ said:
Not to get transhumanist or singularitarian, but the idea that this may even be technologically possible eventually, as computing, AI, and brain science advance, possibly even before I die, makes the thought even bleaker

One thing worth considering is the nature of the human soul, or spiritual matters, in general. We might argue that a person's character is a product of the design and chemistry of his brain, and we might argue that his experiences are also the product of physical and chemical processes that can be studied by science, but one thing worth noting is the apparent immutability of the human soul. You can have half of a human body, but you can't have half of a human. You can graft body parts together, but not people. Regardless of your nature, you're only living life through one body, and it's not an experience that you can directly share. This is why I say that the human soul is immutable. There is absolutely only one you. A lot of what has been studied by science was once considered immutable, but the truth is that all objective things can be split or lumped or changed, which is to say that all objective things can be studied by science. Immutable things are absolute, which exists as a thing higher than the objective world.

Fundamental math is absolute, not objective, for example. The fact that two plus two equals four is never only partially true. It's an absolute. Scientific reality is not absolute, but objective. There are never really two of anything. Two apples are never exactly two of the same thing, always having some differences. Yet, the mathematical absolute is no less true. Absolute things cannot be tampered with or studied scientifically. We could study the two objective apples, which are not exactly two, but we cannot study the absolute math in the same way. For this reason, while we can study the brain, the body, the chemistry, etc. we can never study the soul. We can not capture it, tamper with it, change it, merge it or split it. We cannot study it with science, and we cannot master it with science, in the same way that we cannot tamper with math and change the equation to make a false statement true.

However, spiritual matters can be dealt with by spiritual means. Demons, or even Satan, angels or the Holy Spirit can all interact with the human soul. So, yes, there is the potential for that kind of interference, but among those factors listed the greatest of them is the Holy Spirit. Your relationship with that Holy Spirit is at the core of your salvation and the destiny of your soul. If you put your trust in God, then you have nothing to fear at all.

aiki · Dec 14, 2017

Check out Molinism. It will have the answers you're looking for, I think.

www.reasonablefaith.org

Everybodyknows · Dec 14, 2017

aiki said:
Check out Molinism. It will have the answers you're looking for, I think.

www.reasonablefaith.org

Also check out Open Theism. It is quite controversial though.

Thir7ySev3n · Dec 14, 2017

looking_for_answers_ said:
Awhile back while reading about the philosophy of free will, I was deeply struck by the point that any event is either determined by the events before it, or it is random. "Free will" has to fit into that, somehow.

This realization has shook me very deeply as it makes the fact that God would even allow hell to exist extremely disturbing. Those conscious entities did not to believe either based on prior causes, or because of quantum randomness that somehow trickles into the brain. Why would God allow them to suffer for eternity because of this?!?

I would love to accept libertarian free will but honestly it is so riddled with incoherencies that I just cannot, but even if it were true somehow, it is still not a satifying answer.

Compatablism ultimately seems like it's just a semantic re-working of incompatablism. Sure, you are the "ultimate" factor in that your brain ultimately sends the signal to make a decision, but even that is either caused or random...

I've been struggling with this and looking for a satisfying answer for nearly a year now. I am deep in a crisis of faith and don't understand how we can consider God "loving". Most Christians who write on this subject do so from the wrong point of view, or just do not seem to grasp the "determinism and indetermisim" vs "moral responsibility" dichotemy. A lot of the Christians I've read seem to think that indeterminism somehow answers the problem, but quantum die-rolling still doesn't seem to justify having a person suffer for eternity.

I feel so alone in this. I've only brought it up with a handful of people in the real world and none of them were able to grasp this so I gave up. The Christians online are the same, and generally seem to think that the discussion is Calvanism vs. Arminianism, which is entirely missing the point.

Thanks and God Bless to all.

I answer this question both Biblically and logically in one point of my four point argument on the goodness of God. Emphasis on the Biblically (which will be demonstrated) in the event that a brother or sister wants to reject the argument as "man's wisdom." Emphasis on the logically (which will likewise be demonstrated) in the event that a brother or sister struggles with appreciating the implications of the text. This answer reconciles the concurrent Biblical doctrines of man's responsibility and God's sovereignty and demonstrates how they are concurrent but not contradictory in any sense (so that our actions are neither random and unaccounted for, nor determined and absent the direction of our free agency).

The very reason we were put in our specific times and places in world history was to prepare all those who would receive the salvation that comes through Jesus Christ to do so:

"From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us (Acts 17:26-27)."

"...He has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself (Hebrews 9:26)."

And again: "...when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons (Galatians 4:4-5)."

In creating a universe that would accommodate truly free moral agents, God would have a potentially infinite number of options available to Him with an equally potentially infinite amount of possible outcomes. From what we know about the nature of God, He would naturally choose to create the world which would produce the greatest possible outcome. What is the greatest possible outcome? There is none other than that world which provides the circumstances which leads the largest number of souls to freely accept the grace of God through the salvation provided in Jesus Christ. From what we know about God's nature, particularly that God is omni-benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent, this can be deductively inferred as follows:

1. Because God is omni-benevolent, He would desire to create the world which would produce the greatest potential good
2. Because God is omniscient, He would know which world would produce the greatest potential good
3. Because God is omnipotent, He would be able to create the world which would produce the greatest potential good

Therefore the world in which we exist is that which would produce the great potential good. To repeat, this greatest good is the largest number of souls that would freely surrender themselves to God and receive His grace. It would follow that, in a world of free creatures, the world which produces the great potential good does not contain any gratuitous evil, but only whatever evil is necessarily permitted in the course that results in the best possible outcome.

Again, God would have had a potentially infinite number of options present of worlds to create with an equally infinite number of possible outcomes. By His perfect nature, however, God would not create a world at random in which His will to create concurrently free and absolutely loved creatures was not accomplished. So God would have to narrow His options to feasible worlds which accommodate creaturely freedom and yet lovingly provides the circumstances that permits each person who would freely choose God to do so. Knowing God, once He had narrowed the options to the assortment of great results, He would naturally choose the greatest of these possible outcomes. This is not to say God is predestining our decisions, but the creation of the world which would provide the social, environmental and personal circumstances that are necessary for each individual, in their own times and places as God foreknew, to interact with each other, their environment and God in a way that corresponds to their psychology/personality, ultimately and inevitably leading to the salvation of those who would freely respond affirmatively to God's grace in whatever circumstance they find themselves. In this sense, then, God can literally be said to have elected those who are saved (Mark 13:20, Romans 11:7), though their choices as well as those who reject God are entirely free (Joshua 24:15, 1 Kings 18:21).

As is stated in Acts 17, God placed us within our context because He knew that if given that context we would freely choose to accept Him by the testimony and in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit. It could then be rightly asked "well then could God have not provided a precise set of circumstances that would be those which are necessary to win the soul of every person?", and the answer would be no. For some people, there is no such set of circumstances that would be sufficient for them to freely receive the salvation of Christ by the Holy Spirit's testimony. This is affirmed doubly in the Scriptures. First, in Daniel 12:10 concerning the course through to the end times Jesus says: "Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand." Again, concerning God's providence Paul says in Romans 9:22: "What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"

It may also seem confusing to think that God has among His human creation "objects of wrath" which He prepares for destruction, until you comprehend these points and Scriptures collectively. There are some souls which God would create that will freely reject Him under any and all circumstances, but are still necessary in the grand scheme of world history to play a role in drawing all those who will be freely saved into that salvation. God Himself illustrates this wonderfully in His statement to Pharaoh in Exodus 9:15-16: "For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

See Acts 17:26-27, Genesis 50:20, Jeremiah 25:8-14 and Judges 14:4 for more Scriptural examples on the providence of God and how it works.

In conclusion, it is important to note that God is perfectly just and shows no partiality (Deuteronomy 10:7, 2 Chronicles 19:7), and these attributes would necessarily inform His creative decree in which world to actualize.. No person is favoured, whether man or woman, rich or poor, slave or free, great or small (Galatians 3:28). Thus we can be certain that if God selects the specific times and places of every individual for the explicit purpose of preparing them to receive the salvation that is in Christ, it follows that all who extend beyond the means of receiving that salvation on account of their place or time are not victims of misfortune, but are those whom God foreknew would freely reject that salvation. Their existence then serves to play a role, indiscernible to us, in world history in maximizing the number of souls who would freely come to Christ on account of the unfolding effects and ripples of their lives.

JIMINZ · Dec 14, 2017

A71 said:
I don't think about hell. I see a much bigger God than that. My personal experience regarding sin is that God puts the kibosh on anything my flesh wants and he does not want.

Your not alone in you beliefs.
Those who would be upset, they need to take a look at things outside of their Religious comfort zone, there is a lot more to being a Christian than they have been taught.

People who do not understand where it is they stand IN Christ, build all kinds of Theological walls to support their beliefs.

JIMINZ · Dec 14, 2017

looking_for_answers_ said:
Awhile back while reading about the philosophy of free will, I was deeply struck by the point that any event is either determined by the events before it, or it is random. "Free will" has to fit into that, somehow.

This realization has shook me very deeply as it makes the fact that God would even allow hell to exist extremely disturbing. Those conscious entities did not to believe either based on prior causes, or because of quantum randomness that somehow trickles into the brain. Why would God allow them to suffer for eternity because of this?!?

I would love to accept libertarian free will but honestly it is so riddled with incoherencies that I just cannot, but even if it were true somehow, it is still not a satifying answer.

Compatablism ultimately seems like it's just a semantic re-working of incompatablism. Sure, you are the "ultimate" factor in that your brain ultimately sends the signal to make a decision, but even that is either caused or random...

I've been struggling with this and looking for a satisfying answer for nearly a year now. I am deep in a crisis of faith and don't understand how we can consider God "loving". Most Christians who write on this subject do so from the wrong point of view, or just do not seem to grasp the "determinism and indetermisim" vs "moral responsibility" dichotemy. A lot of the Christians I've read seem to think that indeterminism somehow answers the problem, but quantum die-rolling still doesn't seem to justify having a person suffer for eternity.

I feel so alone in this. I've only brought it up with a handful of people in the real world and none of them were able to grasp this so I gave up. The Christians online are the same, and generally seem to think that the discussion is Calvanism vs. Arminianism, which is entirely missing the point.

Thanks and God Bless to all.

.
.
It sounds as though you are attempting to put GOD into some kind of Philosophical type of framework, where everything about GOD and His actions can be quantified by mans rationally.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
for they are foolishness unto him:
neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

My advice would be, read more of the Bible, and less of everything else.
Only when you come to the realization, you will never come to a true understanding through the use of others findings, teachings, beliefs.

The answer to one of your questions is.

We do not have Free Will as most suppose, we actually have Dominion, the two are very similar, but while the use of our ability to choose can be found within the parameters of Dominion, it has not become a separate ability on it's own, neither were we ever endowed with said Free Will, it has always been part and parcel of Dominion.

Halbhh · Dec 14, 2017

Radagast said:
I find that my close friends can predict my decisions already.

Right!....until one day, maybe after 3 or 10 or 20 years...the person we know so well does something that surprises everyone....

pat34lee · Dec 15, 2017

looking_for_answers_ said:
Awhile back while reading about the philosophy of free will, I was deeply struck by the point that any event is either determined by the events before it, or it is random. "Free will" has to fit into that, somehow.

This realization has shook me very deeply as it makes the fact that God would even allow hell to exist extremely disturbing. Those conscious entities did not to believe either based on prior causes, or because of quantum randomness that somehow trickles into the brain. Why would God allow them to suffer for eternity because of this?!?

The best answer I know of is one of the simplest. Have faith
that God is greater and knows better than us what he is doing.
He is ultimately good, but also fair, just and merciful. Nobody
will ever be judged without getting every possibility to repent.

Gregory Thompson · Dec 15, 2017

looking_for_answers_ said:
Awhile back while reading about the philosophy of free will, I was deeply struck by the point that any event is either determined by the events before it, or it is random. "Free will" has to fit into that, somehow.

This realization has shook me very deeply as it makes the fact that God would even allow hell to exist extremely disturbing. Those conscious entities did not to believe either based on prior causes, or because of quantum randomness that somehow trickles into the brain. Why would God allow them to suffer for eternity because of this?!?

I would love to accept libertarian free will but honestly it is so riddled with incoherencies that I just cannot, but even if it were true somehow, it is still not a satifying answer.

Compatablism ultimately seems like it's just a semantic re-working of incompatablism. Sure, you are the "ultimate" factor in that your brain ultimately sends the signal to make a decision, but even that is either caused or random...

I've been struggling with this and looking for a satisfying answer for nearly a year now. I am deep in a crisis of faith and don't understand how we can consider God "loving". Most Christians who write on this subject do so from the wrong point of view, or just do not seem to grasp the "determinism and indetermisim" vs "moral responsibility" dichotemy. A lot of the Christians I've read seem to think that indeterminism somehow answers the problem, but quantum die-rolling still doesn't seem to justify having a person suffer for eternity.

I feel so alone in this. I've only brought it up with a handful of people in the real world and none of them were able to grasp this so I gave up. The Christians online are the same, and generally seem to think that the discussion is Calvanism vs. Arminianism, which is entirely missing the point.

Thanks and God Bless to all.

I've thought on this too, free will is self centric (what I do) and pre-destination is self centric. (I am chosen) How to bring the conversation back to Christ I think is to ignore the neo-platonic dichotomy and just let the I am be who he is.
.
one example that kind of incorporates both is, God prepares us so we can trust him, so when we trust him, it's not God tricking us .. and it's not the flesh paradoxically choosing something of God, it's both of us beginning the journey together.

Benaiahian Monk · Dec 15, 2017

In Salvation a lot of questions are answered.
Pray that God will save you is submission to his will. Free will is making a conscience , prayerful, direct decision to except Christ as your Savior and Lord of your life.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6
What does the Bible say about will?
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Matthew 26:39 .
I hope this was beneficial to you.

looking_for_answers_ · Dec 15, 2017

nonaeroterraqueous said:
One thing worth considering is the nature of the human soul, or spiritual matters, in general. We might argue that a person's character is a product of the design and chemistry of his brain, and we might argue that his experiences are also the product of physical and chemical processes that can be studied by science, but one thing worth noting is the apparent immutability of the human soul.

But is the soul's nature a product of something? If so, then the soul is not responsible for it's own nature. If not, then there is nothing causing the soul's nature? That would not make any sense.

Unfortunately, invoking the supernatural doesn't make the issue go away

looking_for_answers_ · Dec 15, 2017

Halbhh said:
Right!....until one day, maybe after 3 or 10 or 20 years...the person we know so well does something that surprises everyone....

If that thing was truly random (like from quantum randomness), then it's still not that person's fault. Otherwise, you've just shown that humans are not capable of fully seeing and predicting things with 100% accuracy, even within themselves, but that isn't saying anything beyond that. Hypothetically, were a superintelligence able to fully see and model the state of a human (including a soul), they would be able to predict what that human would do (assuming no true randomness was involved). Surprises only happen because we don't have that capability.

looking_for_answers_ · Dec 15, 2017

Benaiahian Monk said:
Free will is making a conscience , prayerful, direct decision to except Christ as your Savior and Lord of your life.

But someone can only make that decision if their mind is in a state to do so

looking_for_answers_ · Dec 15, 2017

Thir7ySev3n said:
I answer this question both Biblically and logically in one point of my four point argument on the goodness of God. Emphasis on the Biblically (which will be demonstrated) in the event that a brother or sister wants to reject the argument as "man's wisdom." Emphasis on the logically (which will likewise be demonstrated) in the event that a brother or sister struggles with appreciating the implications of the text. This answer reconciles the concurrent Biblical doctrines of man's responsibility and God's sovereignty and demonstrates how they are concurrent but not contradictory in any sense (so that our actions are neither random and unaccounted for, nor determined and absent the direction of our free agency).

The very reason we were put in our specific times and places in world history was to prepare all those who would receive the salvation that comes through Jesus Christ to do so:

"From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us (Acts 17:26-27)."

"...He has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself (Hebrews 9:26)."

And again: "...when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons (Galatians 4:4-5)."

In creating a universe that would accommodate truly free moral agents, God would have a potentially infinite number of options available to Him with an equally potentially infinite amount of possible outcomes. From what we know about the nature of God, He would naturally choose to create the world which would produce the greatest possible outcome. What is the greatest possible outcome? There is none other than that world which provides the circumstances which leads the largest number of souls to freely accept the grace of God through the salvation provided in Jesus Christ. From what we know about God's nature, particularly that God is omni-benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent, this can be deductively inferred as follows:

1. Because God is omni-benevolent, He would desire to create the world which would produce the greatest potential good
2. Because God is omniscient, He would know which world would produce the greatest potential good
3. Because God is omnipotent, He would be able to create the world which would produce the greatest potential good

Therefore the world in which we exist is that which would produce the great potential good. To repeat, this greatest good is the largest number of souls that would freely surrender themselves to God and receive His grace. It would follow that, in a world of free creatures, the world which produces the great potential good does not contain any gratuitous evil, but only whatever evil is necessarily permitted in the course that results in the best possible outcome.

Again, God would have had a potentially infinite number of options present of worlds to create with an equally infinite number of possible outcomes. By His perfect nature, however, God would not create a world at random in which His will to create concurrently free and absolutely loved creatures was not accomplished. So God would have to narrow His options to feasible worlds which accommodate creaturely freedom and yet lovingly provides the circumstances that permits each person who would freely choose God to do so. Knowing God, once He had narrowed the options to the assortment of great results, He would naturally choose the greatest of these possible outcomes. This is not to say God is predestining our decisions, but the creation of the world which would provide the social, environmental and personal circumstances that are necessary for each individual, in their own times and places as God foreknew, to interact with each other, their environment and God in a way that corresponds to their psychology/personality, ultimately and inevitably leading to the salvation of those who would freely respond affirmatively to God's grace in whatever circumstance they find themselves. In this sense, then, God can literally be said to have elected those who are saved (Mark 13:20, Romans 11:7), though their choices as well as those who reject God are entirely free (Joshua 24:15, 1 Kings 18:21).

As is stated in Acts 17, God placed us within our context because He knew that if given that context we would freely choose to accept Him by the testimony and in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit. It could then be rightly asked "well then could God have not provided a precise set of circumstances that would be those which are necessary to win the soul of every person?", and the answer would be no. For some people, there is no such set of circumstances that would be sufficient for them to freely receive the salvation of Christ by the Holy Spirit's testimony. This is affirmed doubly in the Scriptures. First, in Daniel 12:10 concerning the course through to the end times Jesus says: "Many will be purified, made spotless and refined, but the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those who are wise will understand." Again, concerning God's providence Paul says in Romans 9:22: "What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?"

It may also seem confusing to think that God has among His human creation "objects of wrath" which He prepares for destruction, until you comprehend these points and Scriptures collectively. There are some souls which God would create that will freely reject Him under any and all circumstances, but are still necessary in the grand scheme of world history to play a role in drawing all those who will be freely saved into that salvation. God Himself illustrates this wonderfully in His statement to Pharaoh in Exodus 9:15-16: "For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

See Acts 17:26-27, Genesis 50:20, Jeremiah 25:8-14 and Judges 14:4 for more Scriptural examples on the providence of God and how it works.

In conclusion, it is important to note that God is perfectly just and shows no partiality (Deuteronomy 10:7, 2 Chronicles 19:7), and these attributes would necessarily inform His creative decree in which world to actualize.. No person is favoured, whether man or woman, rich or poor, slave or free, great or small (Galatians 3:28). Thus we can be certain that if God selects the specific times and places of every individual for the explicit purpose of preparing them to receive the salvation that is in Christ, it follows that all who extend beyond the means of receiving that salvation on account of their place or time are not victims of misfortune, but are those whom God foreknew would freely reject that salvation. Their existence then serves to play a role, indiscernible to us, in world history in maximizing the number of souls who would freely come to Christ on account of the unfolding effects and ripples of their lives.

Thanks for this, it is quite well thought-out. I have three thoughts:

1) God is calculating which universe is "best" by tweaking parameters. Why is not powerful enough to produce a universe with no suffering or torment? Can he only tweak certain parameters, and not others?

2) This assumes God's intent in creation was to create the "best" universe, which still ended up being one with eternal torment, and an extremely low ratio of saved / unsaved souls. If he wasn't powerful enough to avoid this, would it not make more sense for his motivation to be the "least bad" universe instead? Let's say you were a scientist who was working on brain-computer interfacing tech. You had 100 subjects, who were forced into this expiriment. If you push the hypothetical button, 99 of them will experience the maximal amount of pleasure for five minutes, but one will have their pain neurons prodded with maximal pain that a human experience for the same amount of time. Would you push the button? I cannot imagine doing so, and I don't see how anyone who would could be called "loving".

Similar to the forced test subjects, I did not consent to being brought into existence, I only found out about being in this after already being born...

3) The word "free" is used a lot, but not defined. "free" from what? From God's control? Perhaps. But even if so, my decisions are still based on the events that precede them. There is no way for anything that exists in time to be "free" from that.

Appreciated and God bless

looking_for_answers_ · Dec 15, 2017

aiki said:
Check out Molinism. It will have the answers you're looking for, I think.

I am familiar with Molonism, but it's not framing the "free will" question in a way relevant to my frustrations.

The question isn't "How can my decisions be considered 'free' if God knows what I'll decide?".

The question is "How can my decisions be considered 'free' if they are caused by prior events?"

Prior events including everything external and internal (the state of my brain, mind, soul, etc)

Halbhh · Dec 15, 2017

looking_for_answers_ said:
If that thing was truly random (like from quantum randomness), then it's still not that person's fault. Otherwise, you've just shown that humans are not capable of fully seeing and predicting things with 100% accuracy, even within themselves, but that isn't saying anything beyond that. Hypothetically, were a superintelligence able to fully see and model the state of a human (including a soul), they would be able to predict what that human would do (assuming no true randomness was involved). Surprises only happen because we don't have that capability.

Ah. Believing in a soul/spirit (or 2 things, were the soul is what happens when a spirit is put into a body), then I think of the spirit/soul as the agent, the me who decides. Who is it that decided when I make a decision? My essential self is deciding, even if the choice is merely to go along with the impulse from the body, or the opposite, etc. So, therefore, the determinacy or indeterminacy of nature (physics) and thus the body/brain aren't the key piece for who has agency, since I think of the real agent, the human spirit, as not under the laws of physics (I think). Since I see our human spirit as in some way 'super'natural (not simply under nature, subject to nature, like a body), then the question of natural determinism is mute. I would not think that the spirit has to be deterministic, like a machine. I think the human spirit is not a machine-like thing, not like a robot.

Of course, now were are entering the realm of the transcendent, that which cannot be specified in full.

Thus this makes huge sense to me:

13 Moses said to God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ Then what shall I tell them?”
14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”

That which IS, and cannot be specified under nature.

------------
(*Relatively less important side note: About determinism in nature (physics) -- The totally normal, plausible, common sense presumption is that things have causes all the time, since we know that most anything has a cause when we search for the cause, and thus we want to quite naturally presume that would hold even in some vastly different scale, the quantum scale, and we want then, naturally to expect full determinism, a clockwork universe (and complexity will indeed prevent us predicting all the future of course). But even though this perfectly fits our experience, it doesn't have to be how nature works on the quantum scale (note that quantum mechanics has precise laws, but that doesn't mean full determinism, but instead a law of how probabilities evolve). The determinism we know and love only has to be how nature works on the macro scale we know, for reasonably long time frames (we don't know exactly how long that steel bridge will last without maintenance, even though we have some reasonable guess, which could fail, at some unpredictable time like a sudden bridge collapse, because we only have a reasonable guess about how long until rust progresses enough; and our guess can fail easily, like a weather forecast)

Can anyone provide an alternative to determinism or non-determinism?

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