Liberal Christians

Truthfrees

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Cool, that makes sense! Thanks for the reply, I appreciate it.

I'll always interpret the Bible literally:)
Still, I don't understand how a Christian can say that the bible is "ancient context" and no longer apples to today. I'm not going to conform to modern day values because other people are! Nope, I'll follow the scripture, I mean it is God's word.
i think it is because there are hard to understand passages in the Bible that people have misinterpreted so badly and / or misinterpreted in a hateful way to abuse homosexuals and sinners

this is the reason i most often hear from liberals - the cruelty some literal christians show to sinners

this is a valid critism - we literalists need to remember to love people and hate sin

if we start hating people who sin we have missed the heart of Jesus who died for sinners because He loved them so much

imo this is what makes liberals react to our literal beliefs - they want to soften the Bible - which is a valid point - but they soften the bible by saying it no longer applies

really we need to soften the bible by speaking the truth in love - and loving everyone all the time - even if they don't look like they are repenting of their sins

getting free of sin is a process - we obey because of love - we love God because He first loved us

faith hope and love remain - but love is the greatest

imo if we literal christians went hard core on loving everyone into the arms of God we wouldn't be opposed so much
 
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Truthfrees

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I have no issue confessing I voted for Trump, and I fully agree with your points.

I also agree that every Christian in every region, should pray for their leaders, just as you pointed out. This means that the type of leader and choices of the leader have nothing to do with their biblical stances.

I didn’t vote for Trump because I’m a Christian... I voted for him because he was the answer to the pendulum swinging that was exaggerated from the U.S. presidential sway, for our previous regime.

Balance of power was the goal. If Hillary had gone in, we would have had another 8 years of the same leadership and thus, a major imbalance.

However... My relationship with Jesus and Politics are completely divided. I also have no desire to judge Christians based on their politics. I do have issue with Christians politicizing the gospel and pretending they don’t. Which... by your writing, I’m certain you don’t do.

Also... I love your avatar. <3 to Israel
wow awesome post

very well articulated - a winner - full of truth

God Bless you my friend
 
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iwbswiaihl2

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Go read the Torah again, slowly, with a yellow marker in hand, and highlight each time that God speaks. Everything that I said was in there, or was the result of what was in there.

I will not go point by point. You can do that. Start with Exodus and read through it and Leviticus and Numbers, marker in hand. Give yourself a "red letter version" of the Torah, so you can see exactly what God commanded in his constitution for ruling his country. You'll see a whole lot else that you might not have noticed before, like how the kosher food laws were never a ceremonial law, but a law with a health promise, or how Hebrew slavery was structured to be a method to encourage people to convert.

To each his own, that is why I try to put scripture chapter and verse when I state my point of view then others will see where I got my beliefs. That way they can if they are interested see whether I misread the text. Most of what is given on most Christian forums that I have visited are usually just opinions and cannot be back up with scripture in context. Thanks, but just to mention the Torah was given to the Jewish people and NT says in Gal 3:24-25 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. As for food laws, again, the NT says we can eat whatever is placed before us if we like it and someone else doesn't want to eat it, that is up to them, but we are not to judge one another whether we do or they don't, Col 2:16-19 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.
 
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Grip Docility

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i think it is because there are hard to understand passages in the Bible that people have misinterpreted so badly and / or misinterpreted in a hateful way to abuse homosexuals and sinners

this is the reason i most often hear from liberals - the cruelty some literal christians show to sinners

this is a valid critism - we literalists need to remember to love people and hate sin

if we start hating people who sin we have missed the heart of Jesus who died for sinners because He loved them so much

imo this is what makes liberals react to our literal beliefs - they want to soften the Bible - which is a valid point - but they soften the bible by saying it no longer applies

really we need to soften the bible by speaking the truth in love - and loving everyone all the time - even if they don't look like they are repenting of their sins

getting free of sin is a process - we obey because of love - we love God because He first loved us

faith hope and love remain - but love is the greatest

imo if we literal christians went hard core on loving everyone into the arms of God we wouldn't be opposed so much

Hooray! You call sin... sin... but recognize that we all sin and equally need Jesus!

Love to all is part of our Gospel commission and you have articulated this perfectly!

Amen!

Especially the part where you say... ;

imo if we literal christians went hard core on loving everyone into the arms of God we wouldn't be opposed so much

Many Christians “pretend” to practice this, but get so caught up in politicized Jesus Mantra that comes complete with finger pointing... they actually shatter your point and miss the awesome effects of “Love thine enemy”.
 
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iwbswiaihl2

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the real Trump does not resemble the media spin on him

he made a lot of mistakes but he is the first to say his marriage problems were his fault

and he has learned from his mistakes

and he now listens to only the news and christian tv - as per the christian ministers who are holding weekly prayer meetings with him to help him grow strong in the Lord and do well as a president

he now says that he wants to go down in history as the president who prays the most

1 timothy 2:1-5 tells us to pray for our leaders

several ministers and their followers have been doing so

and Trump is now a serious christian learning from godly ministers how to walk as a christian walks

God's word works if we apply it properly

watch and see what God will do with a man like Trump

Saul of Tarsus murdered christians and look what God did through him after he encountered the Living Christ

pray for Trump to continue to grow in godliness and the wisdom of God
I sure would like for one them to tell him that it is a good idea for leaders to read one chapter to start the day in Proverbs every day of the year, and others also daily, but like today, I read Proverbs 30 tomorrow would be dec 1, start back over with Pro 1 and so forth. There is so much in there for leadership and all saints to grow in the wisdom and understanding of the Lord. I have been :prayer: that he get off twitter :oldthumbsup: and learn and practice Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
 
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Grip Docility

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wow awesome post

very well articulated - a winner - full of truth

God Bless you my friend

I’m going out on a limb that Romans 11:25-36 has significant meaning to you and the fate of Zion?
 
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Truthfrees

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Go read the Torah again, slowly, with a yellow marker in hand, and highlight each time that God speaks. Everything that I said was in there, or was the result of what was in there.

I will not go point by point. You can do that. Start with Exodus and read through it and Leviticus and Numbers, marker in hand. Give yourself a "red letter version" of the Torah, so you can see exactly what God commanded in his constitution for ruling his country. You'll see a whole lot else that you might not have noticed before, like how the kosher food laws were never a ceremonial law, but a law with a health promise, or how Hebrew slavery was structured to be a method to encourage people to convert.
love your posts and your study of scripture in the original language

you always get me thinking in new ways

i love your idea about a red letter Torah

God Bless you my friend
 
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Truthfrees

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I sure would like for one them to tell him that it is a good idea for leaders to read one chapter to start the day in Proverbs every day of the year, and others also daily, but like today, I read Proverbs 30 tomorrow would be dec 1, start back over with Pro 1 and so forth. There is so much in there for leadership and all saints to grow in the wisdom and understanding of the Lord. I have been :prayer: that he get off twitter :oldthumbsup: and learn and practice Rom 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
lol

amen - agreeing with you in prayer for this

God Bless Trump with more wisdom and more inner change to the glory of God

Jesus is the author and perfector of his faith - may God do a quick and deep and profound work in the heart and life of our dear president Trump
 
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Grip Docility

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God Bless you my friend - yes yes yes

I’m kind of happy dancing right now! If God can have mercy on Godless Gentiles and Stuborn Children of Jacob... the limitless mercy of Jesus Christ becomes incomprehensible and the unknown unfolding of scripture in the future becomes even more exiting!

Yayyyyyyyyy!!! God bless you too, my friend!
 
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Truthfrees

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I’m kind of happy dancing right now! If God can have mercy in Godless Gentiles and Stuborn Children of Jacob... the limitless mercy of Jesus Christ becomes incomprehensible and the unknown unfolding of scripture in the future becomes even more exiting!

Yayyyyyyyyy!!! God bless you too, my friend!
o wow

happy dancing myself now

your post is profoundly anointed

God Bless you
 
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Grip Docility

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o wow

happy dancing myself now

your post is profoundly anointed

God Bless you

I’ll cool my jets and count today’s conversational blessings before the supersessionist’s get hostile :D
 
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Truthfrees

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I’ll cool my jets and count today’s conversational blessings before the supersessionist’s get hostile :D
i thought you were

isn't it amazing how powerfully the Holy Spirit moves?

it's a rare experience to encounter this kind of thing online

God Bless you my dear friend

you just made my day
 
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Grip Docility

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i thought you were

isn't it amazing how powerfully the Holy Spirit moves?

it's a rare experience to encounter this kind of thing online

God Bless you my dear friend

you just made my day

And... you made mine!
 
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Bible Highlighter

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You being a Christian Pacifist should not mean you must be opposed to the just use of the sword of men by the lost in defense, or the just use of it by the state, and training in discipline, and thus sustaining a army.

I am not going to your link but unless you would never call the police or use the judicial system then you support the use of physical force and even the sword of men by the state, as without that ultimate threat they would be quite ineffective overall.

God can use both believers and unbelievers for his greater plan for good.

Also, the police are not a hit squad. They do not shoot first and ask questions later in every call they get. They are to first try and resolve the issue peacefully if they can. God mentions how he has ministers of justice at his disposal in Romans 13. So the believer who does evil should fear because God can use the police to stop them. But just because they are being used by God does not mean they are following His will in being His disciple to the fullest extent.

A believer can pray for protection by asking God to send His Spirit and His holy angels to protect them. Now, if God tells the angel or angels to use lethal force against anyone trying to harm a particular believer, then the person who prays for protection is not accountable for any violence the angel does that He prayed for. It is a decision that is out of his hands. Just as a Christian (who is a pacifist) can call the cops to stop a violent situation. They know that cops have in the past stopped shooters without killing them before. They also know that the police are God's ministers of justice and if God decides that nobody is going to die in that scenario or situation, then nobody will die. God can make a person's gun to jam or have a bee fly in a person's ear. Nothing is impossible for GOD. God can make a person drop their car keys preventing a person from getting into a car accident or to get into one. God is in control. GOD has a plan that we cannot see.
 
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Open Heart

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im a hardcore conservative Christian. I have always thought that conservative views go hand and hang with Christianity. Morals. Values. Standards. These are things I thought Christians should stand up for.

I can understand how some economic views such as capitalism and like healthcare can be controversial for anyone (including Christians) but issues such as abortion, gay rights, transgenderism, islam, - aren't these topics that all Christian's should be consistent with opposing? I mean, the Bible does support opposing it... so if Christians support scripture, why are some Christians liberal??? like shouldn't Christians be conservative?

I know a couple people who claim they are Christian but also have very liberal ideas. for example, this girl i met recently is basically a hardcore feminist, anti-trump, it seems her idealogy cannot support Christian values. This is just one example, I know so many Christians that are liberal. and i just dont understand

thoughts?

I dont wanna start a debate here, i am just genuinely concerned for the way our society is moving - LIBERAL. :)
In the body of Christ, every part of the body plays a role. No one can say to the arm, "hey we don't need you," or to the stomach, "stop growling and go away." LOL I am definitely not a liberal, but I think that if Conservatives don't listen to liberals, they lack. The Body of Christ would be unbalanced without liberals. Liberals help us adjust to change when change comes; Conservatives help us preserve what is worth preserving. Both have wonderful purposes.

When I was growing up, Evangelicals and Fundamentalists concentrated all of their efforts on spreading the gospel. My father used to preach at the down town LA mission once a month, and I'd go play piano. Sure they'd feed the men. But it wasn't because the men were hungry. Nope. The ONLY reason they fed the men was as a lure to get them in to hear the sermon. If they didn't sit in church, they wouldn't feed them.

Now liberal churches were different. They were into what was called the "social gospel" -- loving your neighbor as yourself. They believed if you did unto the least of these, your brothers, you (the righteous) would enter into eternal life, just as Jesus taught. So they clothed Jesus when he was naked, fed Jesus when he was hungry, went and comforted Jesus when he was sick and in prison... Not as ways to manipulate others into hearing the gospel, but because they recognized Jesus in the faces of the poor and oppressed.

Today Bible churches have started to get the point. I've seen some changes -- it's not just the Salvation Army that's passing out food to the poor.

But there is still more that Liberal Churches understand that "Bible Churches" still just don't get. For example, Liberal Churches understand much better how Jesus ate with Prostitutes and Tax collectors. Liberal Churches understand much better how God in the Bible set up an ideal society where government had separation of powers, and care of the poor was built into the system. Liberal Churches have a better understanding that giving Adam dominance over all creation meant making him the Steward of the Garden -- that this was as much a responsibility to care for it as a right to enjoy its bounty.

But mostly Liberals do what Liberals are best at--they are terrific at adjusting to the inevitable changes of life. When science comes up with new developments, when culture shifts, when wars break out, when the natural world alters, NEW PROBLEMS ARISE. Liberals simply have the best kind of minds to take old values and reinterpret them for novel situations. Conservatives tend to be stuck trying to pretend that what is new isn't really happening. (That's why, i.e., you have conservatives pretending that the climate isn't warming, while liberals are trying to deal with it.)

Think of all the moral crises that are impending...
  • What will we do when there is not enough fresh water for everyone?
  • What will we do when there is global starvation?
  • Artificial Intelligence is growing rapidly -- what happens when one reaches sentience?
  • How will genetic manipulation of embryos effect us? Should it be allowed?
  • What about the future of computerized enhancement of people?
  • Chimpanzees have complex problem solving skills (and in some areas work faster than us), have rich emotional lives with friendships and familial relationships, are now using spears to hunt, and we've discovered that they have culture, a much more complex tool making set, moral decision making guided by empathy and justice, funeral rituals in some cases, we certainly suspect the beginnings of religion, etc., etc., ... How can we deny them a kind of legal personhood rather than identify them as mere property?
  • Science is discovering that Psychopathy is a kind of brain damage of the amygdala and understimulated frontal cortex. Given that half of all violent crime is committed by psychopaths, should we be putting them in jail, or trying to heal them?

Conservative Christians don't even have these new moral dilemmas on their radars. It is Liberal Christians that are trying to take them by the horns.
 
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JackRT

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He meant the first thing.
He only ever directly ruled one land: Israel.
He imposed a law on Israel, intending for it to make Israel prosperous.
He's God and he knew that he was doing.

It was this:
(1) Free land distribution at the beginning, with it automatically reverting to the original family after a number of years (and no way to contract out of that.

(2) Debt elimination, by law, in the seventh year. People have to be able to repay the debts in six years. If they can't, then in the seventh year the debt is erased and the people go free of it, with no residual owed. This was MANDATORY for Israelites and any foreigner who sojourned with them in Israel. If Congress passed a law that automatically and without recourse cancelled every private debt every seven years, we would (rightly) say that was government action. In Israel, the government enforced this - by not permitting debt collection in and after the seventh year. There was no opt out for normal people.

(3) Mandatory lending to poor people who asked. The rich did not have the power to refuse to lend to the poor Israelites who asked. They could neither hoard money, nor choose to refuse to lend. Think about what that meant for capital formation. It meant that the the rich had a strong incentive to lend out all of their excess capital voluntarily, to people they choose (poor family members, neighbors and friends), because if they weren't spontaneously generous with loans - to people they knew whom they figured would pay them back - then poor people they DIDN'T know and couldn't trust could ask them for a loan, and they did not have the legal right to refuse. God's law was mandatory, and it effectively forced those with wealth to put all of their accumulating capital back into circulation and not attempt to hold it - for the law then granted the poor the right to ask for a loan, and denied the rich the power to refuse it.

So, the "voluntary" aspect for the rich was merely whom they decided to lend it to FIRST, BEFORE somebody else asked to borrow it. If the rich sat on their wealth and didn't voluntarily choose to lend it out to neighbors and friends in need, then the law forced them to lend it out to the first people who asked.

And the law forced the lender to forgive the unpaid debt after seven years.

(4) And what of the bankrupt in, say, the second year who could not pay his debt? The lender had this option, if he was a fellow believer: he could simply let the man go to try to pay him back, and forgive the portion unpaid in the seventh, Sabbatical year. Or he could go to court and the man would be directed into the lender's service to pay for the debt. Now, note well: the Hebrew could not be ENSLAVED by the lender. He was an indentured servant. He, and if he had wife and choldren, they had to be clothed, fed, housed, provided for AND PAID, though that pay could be withheld until the end of the term. The support could not be. If the lender could not provide for the bankrupt, he could not take him into forced service.

Then, when the sabbatical year came, the 7th year (not of the debt, but the official seventh year), whatever was unpaid on the loan was wiped out, and the indentured man was free to go. And the lender had to pay him wages for his work to send him on his way. He could not send him out empty handed.

(5) Interest could not be charged on lent money to the fellow Hebrews.

None of these laws were voluntary, or goodness of the heart thing. The rich HAD TO LEND, if asked, and HAD TO FORGIVE in the Sabbatical Year. And the conditionas of indenture were set and had to be respected.

(6) Going further, even foreign slaves had to be freed in the 50th year, the Jubilee.

(7) Land ownership was absolute, in the sence that in the 50th Year it ALWAYS reverted to the orignal title family. Nothing could stop this - not debt, not criminal punishment, not the desire of some generation to not be in that land. There was a minimum level of family land protection below which the law did not let anybody fall. No matter how badly a generation squandered everything, the next generation would get the land back, for free, and could start anew as farmers, in their tents, on their own land, which could not be taken for debt or punishment or taxes.

(8) The use of the land, however, was not absolute. The farmer had certain, but not absolute, rights to his crops. Notably, the farmer could not prevent the poor from passing through his fields and orchards and picking what they needed to eat. The poor could not take baskets and take food away, but they could always walk through and feed themselves directly by plucking fruit off the trees or grain heads and eating them there. The poor did not need to pay for the fruit. This was not a privilege, this was a legal right.

(8B) Also, the farmer, in harvesting his crops, was allowed a pass through with his workers. They were not, however, permitted to go back through and harvest the late blooming food, nor to go back and pick up anything they dropped. These gleanings were legally the property of the poor - the poor had the right to come on the land and pick all of these things and take them, again for free. The farmer was not permitted to harvest right to the edge of his fields either, that was to be left as gleanings for the poor.

(8C) Every 7th year, and also in the 50th year, the farmer was not permitted to either plant crops nor harvest what grew of its own accord. This was all left as gleanings for the poor.

If you've ever been to California, you have have seen vast orange and grapefruit groves with huge numbers of oranges and grapefruit fallen from the trees sitting on the groud, and big signs warning that picking up fallen fruit is theft, and entering the orchards is tresspassing.

Under God's law, the orange farmers have no right to do any of that. Poor people have the right to walk through the orchard and eat that fruit.

The economic theory is simple and especially spoken of by Jesus: man is not an owner of wealth. He is a steward. All wealth comes from and belongs to God, and God has directed, by law (enforceable in the courts of ancient Israel), certain things to be done with his property: mandatory lending without interest, mandatory debt forgiveness, mandatory right to eat from the fields, mandatory gleanings. These aren't just good ideas or suggestions from God - they are God's mandatory charity, and were intended for the good of all, that there not be any hunger or true poverty in the land over time.

Our belief and argument is that wealth is the actual PROPERTY of the wealthy man, to do as he pleases.. This is not God's law at all.

None of these laws have been incorporated into our laws.

And finally we have (9), the law of mandatory tithes for the poor and for support of the Levites. There were other taxes, such as first fruits and the priest's portions of each sacrifice, but the tithe was earmarked for support of the Levites and for them to distribute to the poor. Nothing about this was voluntary.

Now then, one could correctly note: "We are not under the law, that was just for Israel", and that's true - but only to a point. We are not under THAT law, exactly, but we ARE under the Law of Jesus, and HE gave the direct (and ugly for the stingy) parable of the sheep and the goats, with those who who said "Where did we see you hungry and not feed you?" etc., being sent into the fire. So yes, it's true, we are free from having to structure it exactly as God did (although if we think we're wiser than he we are as stupid as we are arrogant), but no , we are not free to simply not have a structure: the penalty for not getting the job done is hellfire, and truth is, before we set up universal public education we had broad ignorance, and before we set up Social Security we had a great deal of destitution among the old and poor: the system of private charty did not get the job done, which is why we moved back towards the government structures of modern time, which parallel the government structures God set up in Israel.

American conservatives hate all of this, but it's right there in the Torah, and in Jesus' own law.

I have to seriously wonder if these laws were ever brought into practice. Is there any evidence that they were?
 
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Vicomte13

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To each his own, that is why I try to put scripture chapter and verse when I state my point of view then others will see where I got my beliefs. That way they can if they are interested see whether I misread the text. Most of what is given on most Christian forums that I have visited are usually just opinions and cannot be back up with scripture in context. Thanks, but just to mention the Torah was given to the Jewish people and NT says in Gal 3:24-25 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. As for food laws, again, the NT says we can eat whatever is placed before us if we like it and someone else doesn't want to eat it, that is up to them, but we are not to judge one another whether we do or they don't, Col 2:16-19 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

Ah yes, we're not under the Torah, therefore none of the laws apply to us. True. We don't have to tithe. The Ten Commandments do not apply to us. None of it applies to us. What Jesus said does, and a great deal of what Jesus said echoes the Torah. We are under that.

The Torah organized a governmental system that had a heavy component of wealth redistribution to address the real and grinding fact of poverty. God arranged that system. It is true that we don't have to do it the way God commanded the Jews to do it. We're left to figure it out ourselves.

But Jesus imposed a sterner rule on the matter. If the Hebrew didn't tithe or obey the law, the courts of Israel would compel him to.

Jesus doesn't compel. He simply informs: if you don't feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the sick, visit the prisoner, you're a goat - and the goats are headed into the flames.

Do as you please. The Jews had it easy under the law, compared to what Jesus has warned about, when it comes to poverty relief. True, we can ignore the way God did it in Israel, presumably because we think we're smarter than him and can do it better. But we don't.

The reason for this discussion, after all, is the question of whether God commanded us to use government to help care for the poor. Yes, he did. Specifically in his Old Testament example, and also implicitly. It's true that we don't have to do it his way, but we do have to do it, or we're goats. Looking at our country, where there is such tremendous suffering and poverty, if the government DIDN'T do it, we would have starvation. Christians are not rushing out there filling the gap NOW. Take away the whole support structure that primarily provides the aid to the poor, and where is there any evidence that Christians will rise to the occasion and do twenty times what they do now - which doesn't cover the needs.

We want to rule politics off limits. Sorry, they are part of life, and Christ must be present in every aspect of it, including our religious decisions.

So yes, you are free to oppose social welfare. Nobody will stop you. Your position is not of God. Your exercising your freedom from the Torah to assert a freedom from the need to provide permanent aid to a huge number of people. You have that freedom, while you live. But why bother saying you're with Christ if you don't do what he said to do?

Me? I recognize that the Churches never provided sufficient aid, and that human suffering was substantially reduced by the government taking on that primary role, which is exactly how God set up ancient Israel.

So when I hear Christians opposing welfare, and then proposing that the Churches should take it over, and that all charity should come from the heart without compulsion. Of course it SHOULD. But enough never DID under a purely voluntary model, and even with the government model now all the needs are not met and yet the Christians are not stepping up to close the gap. Take away the net, and you will have mass starvation - voluntarily so. To base that sort of policy on "freedom from the Law" through Jesus is morally shocking.

But you will do as you please. That much is certain.
 
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