6 Biblical Reasons Why Jesus Made Unfermented Wine (Grape Juice).

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faroukfarouk

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I don't smoke. But that doesn't mean I don't have a whole lot of other struggles. I do. There are probably several populations of smokers and drinkers who would look like angels alongside me with some of the stuff I struggle with. Thankfully to our God, His grace is active to help us all (His children) overcome whatever we struggle with.
I think it's a good idea to give up smoking if one can; but like you seemingly, I don't think people should use smoking as something to stigmatize people with if they do. "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man..." (Matthew 15.11) ... or a woman; I don't buy that it's not 'ladylike' to do it; neither is it of lasting benefit to either gender!
 
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Kenny'sID

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I don't see the difference in doing a little bit of evil vs. a lot of evil. Adam and Eve were separated from God by just one sin. Peter told Simon to repent of his one time sin to the Lord by way of prayer and hope that he would be forgiven of his one time sin of trying to pay for the Spirit. God condemns people for just one sins many times in the Bible (Who appear to be believers), as well. Ananais and Sapphira were killed instantly for lying to the Holy Ghost. A great fear fell upon all who heard about this (including the church). Now, if they were safely in the arms of Jesus and in Heaven, why would the church be in fear? It makes no sense. They would be sad but not afraid. For Paul says to live is Christ and to die is gain.

What evil are you talking about?
 
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I don't think people should use smoking as something to stigmatize people with if they do.
It happens to many of us plus to the drinkers and smokers. And not always from fellow believers. Some of the most judgmental comments have come from non-believers. Comments like this:

"Oh, you're doing/saying _____. Hmmm...and you call yourself a Christian."

Just let a person with alcohol on his/her breath go out street-witnessing. There are unbelievers who, if they smell alcohol on the person's breath, will criticize him/her right on the spot by calling the witnessing individual a hypocrite.
 
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faroukfarouk

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It happens to many of us plus to the drinkers and smokers. And not always from fellow believers. Some of the most judgmental comments have come from non-believers. Comments like this:

"Oh, you're doing/saying _____. Hmmm...and you call yourself a Christian."

Just let a person with alcohol on his/her breath go out street-witnessing. There are unbelievers who, if they smell alcohol on the person's breath, will criticize him/her right on the spot by calling the witnessing individual a hypocrite.
Interesting comment. I guess what I meant was if someone is genuinely having a hard time quitting, it doesn't need us giving them even more of a hard time; who knows? we might have been caught in it as well?
 
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Interesting comment. I guess what I meant was if someone is genuinely having a hard time quitting, it doesn't need us giving them even more of a hard time; who knows? we might have been caught in it as well?
I agree
 
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SBC

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The word "moderation" means kindness or gentleness. A keyword search on the Greek word confirms this. A search on the various other translations confirms this; The definition of the word "moderate" confirms this; And the context confirms it (with "peace" being in verse 7 and verse 9). Drinking alcoholic beverages is not in view of the context here.

Your own OP is about drinking Wine.
Drinking Wine is about consuming, not kindness or gentleness.

Moderation has several meanings ~ one which includes to not be excessive.

Tob 4: [15] .... drink not wine to make thee drunken...

God Bless,
SBC
 
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Francis Drake

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Yes, the Israelites drank wine that was diluted with water. This had a low alcoholic content and could make man happy still. But it would not make them so easily drunk like the wines today.
Given that undiluted wine is around 15%, even diluting it with equal water still leaves it at 7.5%, which is the strength today's of strong beers. People still get drunk on weaker beer than that.
Isaiah 1:22 NIV says,
“Your silver has become dross, your choice wine is diluted with water.”​
So here we have the Lord likening diluted wine to the dross of silver, hardly a recommendation!
Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to use it.
That's a stupid analogy. Copper is harder than silver, so adds strength. In complete contrast, adding water just weakens the wine.

To claim that water must be added in order to use it just displays ignorance of normal human nature and preferences.
 
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Radagast

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Given that undiluted wine is around 15%, even diluting it with equal water still leaves it at 7.5%

Greek wine was probably closer to 12%, actually, and a typical Greek dilution was 3:1, giving a drink of about 3% alcohol (similar to a light beer).

According to Herodotus, the Spartan king Cleomenes I was driven insane from drinking undiluted wine: "The Argives say that Cleomenes lost his senses, and died so miserably, on account of these doings. But his own countrymen declare that his madness proceeded not from any supernatural cause whatever, but only from the habit of drinking wine unmixed with water, which he learnt of the Scyths. ... When the Scyths came to Sparta ... Cleomenes was with them continually; and growing somewhat too familiar, learnt of them to drink his wine without water, a practice which is thought by the Spartans to have caused his madness."
 
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Given that undiluted wine is around 15%, even diluting it with equal water still leaves it at 7.5%, which is the strength today's of strong beers. People still get drunk on weaker beer than that.

But you really do not know the ratio. You were not there. You are assuming. It could have been lower by them adding more water. For obviously wine would not be 7.5% if I put an eye drop of wine in a super big glass or cup of water.

You said:
So here we have the Lord likening diluted wine to the dross of silver, hardly a recommendation!

But you are starting off with the world view that it is talking about intoxicating wine when the Bible alludes to the dilution of wine as being the normal way the Israelites drink it. This truth is confirmed by the Talmud and other historical sources.

You said:
That's a stupid analogy. Copper is harder than silver, so adds strength. In complete contrast, adding water just weakens the wine.

No it is not stupid. Why? Because silver needs something else to make it durable. Silver needs to be mixed. So that is how it starts off. For if your analogy of intoxicating wine for Isaiah was true, then silver would not be the example used because silver needs to be mixed to begin with in order for it to be hard enough to use.

You said:
To claim that water must be added in order to use it just displays ignorance of normal human nature and preferences.

For acceptable use by Israelite’s standards at the time. One was considered a barbarian if they drank undiluted wine back at that time. Silver is used in metal making and needs to be hard for it to be used properly.
 
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Your own OP is about drinking Wine.
Drinking Wine is about consuming, not kindness or gentleness.

Moderation has several meanings ~ one which includes to not be excessive.

Tob 4: [15] .... drink not wine to make thee drunken...

God Bless,
SBC

Your not getting what I said; And you are seeing alcohol in the Bible where it is not talking about alcohol. But that's okay. Believe whatever you want to believe, my friend.
 
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What evil are you talking about?

"Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest." (Psalms 51:4).

All unrighteousness is sin (1 John 5:17).
 
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I know..lol just felt like putting that there....

"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things." (Philippians 4:8).
 
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If all your family have managed to keep off the cigarettes, they have done well! :)
If only this was the case. Cigarette smoke was a big thing to overcome on my mom's side of the family, with one dying of lung cancer/emphezema. You'd think my kids would have even more motivation to listen. Not 2 of them. And that makes med insurance premiums go up. :sorry:
 
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Yes, but it can easily lead to sin.

As can a lot of other things.

You don't seem convinced that alcohol is a mild poison.

It may be. Other things are too, and over indulgence/consumption can be dangerous.
Too much salt may increase blood pressure which increases risks of heart attack or stroke.
Food is not a poison, but too much may result in obesity, and cause illnesses like diabetes, heart problems etc.
Too much much caffeine can produce rapid heart beats, hyperactivity.

God spoke through Solomon to say those words. All Scripture is inspired by God.

Of course it is. But God does not say that wine is evil/sinful and must be avoided.
And if you are claiming that the wedding at Cana was under the Old Covenent; Solomon certainly was.

Again, Jesus did not marry, so He did not partake in all things that his brothers did.

Scripture says that he was like us in every way. That doesn't necessarily mean DOING everything we do.
For us, of course Jesus has not done everything we do; he did not own a computer/ipad/mobile phone, use Facebook, drive a car, work in an office and commute, have a family, etc etc.
But he is still LIKE us in every way. He understands loneliness, stress, being criticised for what your job and beliefs, being rejected and let down by friends, frustration, illness and bereavement. He understands the temptation to put yourself first, get your own needs met instead of staying true to God. He wept at Lazarus' grave, showed compassion for the sin and mercy to those caught in sin.

He also did not have a physical father.

He did, he had Joseph. You mean, biological father.

Was Jesus free to marry?

Not really.
He knew that wasn't his Father's will for him - and disobeying his Father was not an option.

Jesus walked perfectly and did not sin. Man has sinned. So therein lies the difference between Jesus and man. Jesus allows us to be forgiven when we first come to Him in repentance, and then Christ then can work in our life so that we can walk in His good ways. His good ways did not include drinking alcohol.

Like I said, it's a matter of opinion whether he drank alcohol or not. But even if he had, he would have still been sinless - he still loved and obeyed God perfectly.

Nope. Yeast in this case still represents sin. The Gentiles were regarded as being sinful and or unbelieving to the Israelites (Which can be seen in God's Word).

As you have said yourself - read the context.
Matthew 13 contains parables. First, the parable of the sower, and then parables about the kingdom - parables of the weeds, mustard seed and yeast. After explaining the parable of the weeds, he says that the Kingdom of God is like hidden treasure, a pearl and a net. All these parables teach different truths about the Kingdom of God and what it is like.
No mention is made here at all of Gentiles - nor of his second coming.
Sometimes yeast symbolises sin. Here the kingdom is likened to yeast because of it is something very small which grows and expands.

Not true. Jesus says,
"They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Mark 2:17).

That is why he CAME - it doesn't prove that he only had meals with tax collectors in order to convert them.

It can be.

No, on it's own it is not a sin.
The sin is in over-indulgence, which may lead to crime, drunkenness, inflicting injury and so on.
Red wine is known to contain certain properties which can be beneficial; you have said yourself that you might drink in a medical emergency.

Even things like hand cleanser in hospitals, and mouthwash contain alcohol - for killing germs.

Literally in real life... "no.";
But in Bible language or the Bible's figures of speech... "yes it is."

No, quite often in Scripture it is used to symbolise sin.

The Bible says that we are all sinners, not users of yeast. Romans, Galatians etc lists sins - lie greed, adultery, gossip etc. Yeast, and using yeast, are not mentioned once.
The devil is described as a liar and murderer - not someone who uses yeast.

Because Jesus was teaching something new. The New Testament ways.
But there are limits to what can go inside a person.
Obviously Jesus was not talking about eating cocain cakes, space brownies, and small live children.
Surely it would be sinful to eat these things, no?

Jesus was talking about clean and unclean food.
He said that no food can make a person unclean - because it does not stay inside a person's body but passes out again.
The things that make people unclean, Jesus said, are bad words and attitudes that are inside a person and come out; things like malice, deceit etc.

Not all laws are the same between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. It would be impossible to obey both because the commands between both covenants conflict with each other. Turn the other cheek is New Covenant. Yet, the Old way was an eye for an eye, etc.

God gave the law "an eye for an eye" to stop people from going over the top in getting revenge.
I.e, if someone steals from you, don't kill them and take all their possessions; that would be an over reaction. It doesn't mean that if someone steals from you/pokes out your eye that you are ENTITLED to do it back to them.
So in that case, I would say that both teachings are similar, of not the same. If someone injures you, don't feel that you have to get revenge and it is best not to. If you feel some kind of recompense is needed; it must be in proportion to what was done to you.
I do feel that this is a good teaching for people who are inclined to sue for millions over a small injury or insult.

When Christ died upon the cross, the temple veil was torn from top to bottom to show that the animal sacrifices and the Levitical priesthood were no longer valid.

Not exactly. I believe it was to show that there was no longer restricted access to God.
Only the high priest could go into the Holy of Holies to meet with God, and then only once a year. When Jesus died and the curtain was torn, it was because everyone could now have access to God.

Not true. At the Wedding of Cana: The ceremonial washing containers used by the Jews that were once filled with water, had been turned into wine by Christ. At that moment, they could not use their old washing containers anymore because it had wine in it (Because of Jesus).

That's not what the text says.
John 2:9 the master of the banquet did not know where the wine had come from, only the servants knew.

They now had to go to the blood of Jesus (i.e. the new wine) so as to get cleansed. The ceremonial washing water represented the Old Covenant, and the wine represented his blood of the New Covenant. Jesus said,

Interesting analogy, but the text does not say that.
When Jesus took wine at the last supper, THAT represented his blood of the New Covenant; there is no indication that any wine that is mentioned in the NT represents his blood also.

Not at all. There are tons of verses that support that Jesus made grape juice. The six points I provided in Scripture in my OP (Original Post) proves that point.

As you can see, most people disagree that the statements that you have made prove your own point.

But I really can't see the point in discussing this further. It doesn't help me, or make any difference.
The whole point of John 2 is that Jesus performed a miracle; according to John, the first that showed who he was.
If when I get to heaven, Jesus says to me, "incidentally, I only made grape juice at that wedding"; so what? As I said, it doesn't change anything.
If he were to say, "incidentally, that was a nice drop of red wine at that wedding"; again, so what? Wine or grape juice makes no difference to me and the way I understand the Gospel.

God bless you
 
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Quoting irrelevant verses doesn't make you not a liar. The only verse in all the Bible that explicitly mentions wine mixed with water is:

Isaiah 1:22 Your silver has become dross, your best wine mixed with water.

That doesn't exactly support your claim, "the Bible alludes to the dilution of wine as being the normal way the Israelites drink it", let alone diluting it to a non-intoxicating degree, as you also argue. Liar. No verse hints at a custom of mixing wine with water. Several verses refer to mixed wine as a horrible thing.

Liar.

Liar.

Liar.

Also, everything you've pasted from other sources is also strait-up lies.

Liar.

Go ahead, liar, quote some other irrelevant verses.

Whoah, hold on a minute.
Jason may have misunderstood Scripture, or seen something in John 2 that others haven't seen, or understand it in a different way. He MAY be mistaken or misguided.
But to accuse a fellow believer of deliberately lying and call them a liar is not on. It is called flaming, is against forum rules, and it may be best to edit, or delete, your post before YOU get into trouble.
 
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MournfulWatcher

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Quoting irrelevant verses doesn't make you not a liar. The only verse in all the Bible that explicitly mentions wine mixed with water is:

Isaiah 1:22 Your silver has become dross, your best wine mixed with water.

That doesn't exactly support your claim, "the Bible alludes to the dilution of wine as being the normal way the Israelites drink it", let alone diluting it to a non-intoxicating degree, as you also argue. Liar. No verse hints at a custom of mixing wine with water. Several verses refer to mixed wine as a horrible thing.

Liar.

Liar.

Liar.

Also, everything you've pasted from other sources is also strait-up lies.

Liar.

Go ahead, liar, quote some other irrelevant verses.

Can you relax please?
It's off putting to see someone being so aggressive in their post
 
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Quoting irrelevant verses doesn't make you not a liar. The only verse in all the Bible that explicitly mentions wine mixed with water is:

Isaiah 1:22 Your silver has become dross, your best wine mixed with water.

That doesn't exactly support your claim, "the Bible alludes to the dilution of wine as being the normal way the Israelites drink it", let alone diluting it to a non-intoxicating degree, as you also argue. Liar. No verse hints at a custom of mixing wine with water. Several verses refer to mixed wine as a horrible thing.

Liar.

Liar.

Liar.

Also, everything you've pasted from other sources is also strait-up lies.

Liar.

Go ahead, liar, quote some other irrelevant verses.

First, Webster's Dictionary 1913 (Which is an older dictionary) says,

Wine:
n.
1.
The expressed juice of grapes, esp. when fermented; a beverage or liquor prepared fromgrapes by squeezing out their juice, and (usually) allowing it to ferment.

Source:
Wine | Definition of Wine by Webster's Online Dictionary

It says the expressed juice of grapes. (Period). Especially (but not isolated to) when fermented.

Also, the word "liquor" is not in reference to an alcoholic beverage, either. Back in the day, such a word did not always mean that like it does today.

Again, Webster's dictionary 1913 says,

Liquor:
n.
1.
Any liquid substance, as water, milk, blood, sap, juice, or the like.

Source:
Liquor | Definition of Liquor by Webster's Online Dictionary

Second, whether you realize it or not, there are three types of wine mentioned in the Bible.

#1. Fermented Wine (Strong in alcoholic content).
#2. Fermented Wine Diluted by Water (Low in alcoholic content)
#3. Unfermented Wine or Freshly Squeezed Grape Juice (A non intoxicating beverage).​

I believe the wine during Bible times that the Old Testament saints drank was Wine Type #2, whereby it was a wine mixed with water and was lower in alcoholic content (Which was the wine seen at the Wedding of Cana before Christ made Wine Type #3, which was non intoxicating grape juice or unfermented wine); In other words, the wines commonly drank by the OT saints was not like the strong wines of today; And Jesus made grape juice that made was considered the “best wine.” Wines of today (By wine tasters) are considered the best by their taste and not how much they can intoxicate you.

Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:

Revelation 14:10 says,
“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”
(Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)

1 Timothy 5:23 says,
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

Proverbs 9:2 (NIV) says,
"She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."

Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.

John 19:34 - Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood (See Matthew 26:27-29).

Isaiah 1:22 NIV
“Your silver has become dross, your choice wine is diluted with water.”​

Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry

If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to use it (whereby it was acceptable to God's people).

So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine (for the times).

Wine could be carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.

Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:

2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.​
 
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Francis Drake

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#1. Jesus's Pure Blood is likened to the Pure Wine that He made.
.................This is why Christ made grape juice because it was a pure juice and it was worthy of reflecting his glory in Him being the perfect, sinless Son of God. "Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape."(Deuteronomy 32:14).

Your Deuteronomy32v14 verse is useless in proving your false theology, and in fact does the entire opposite by proving beyond doubt that it is not grape juice

Given the Medieval attitude to wine and beer as an absolute necessity for health, the King James translators never imagined for a moment some charlatan would twist their words to condemn those who drink wine.
The KJV calls it "the pure blood of the grape." A normal person reading that would take it from the context as meaning rich top grade wine, but you have an agenda to put people under a legalistic guilt trip.
Here is what Strong's concordance has to say regarding the KJV word "pure".
2561. chemer
Strong's Concordance
chemer: wine
Original Word: חָ֫מֶר
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: chemer
Phonetic Spelling: (kheh'-mer)
Short Definition: wine
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from chamar
Definition

wine
NASB Translation
Wine
(In the above you can see that the word originates from Chamar, (Strong's 2560) which is not a noun like wine, but a verb referring to a process.)
chamar: daub
Original Word: חָמַר
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: chamar
Phonetic Spelling: (khaw-mar')
Short Definition: daub


That verb Chamar is then explained further here-
Short Definition: daub
Brown-Driver-Briggs
I. חָמַר verb ferment, boil or foam up (Arabic
bdb033003.gif
ferment, leaven,
bdb033004.gif
,
bdb033005.gif
noun leaven; see LagBN 207); —


Qal Perfect3masculine singular ׳וְיַיִן ח Psalm 75:9 and wine which foams, (others from IV. חמר be red); 3 plural חָֽמְרוּ is suggested by We as possible Habakkuk 3:15 (for ᵑ0 חֹמֶר q. v.) the great waters foamed; Imperfect3masculine plural יֶחֱמוּ יֶחְמְרוּ מֵימָיו Psalm 46:4 let its water roar and foam.

Pe`al`al Perfect passive3plural מֵעַי חֳמַרְמָ֑רוּ Lamentations 1:20 my bowels are in a ferment ("" נֶהְמַּךְ לִבִּי), of distressat calamities of Jerusalem; so חֳמַרְמְרוּ מֵעַי Lamentations 2:11. — Job 16:16 see IV. חמר.

II. [חָמַר] verb denominative cover or smear with asphalt, only

Qal Imperfect3feminine singular suffix וַתַּחְמְרָה Exodus 2:3 (E); on form of suffix see Ges§ 58, 3, R, 1.

There can be no room for doubt that Deuteronomy 32v14 refers purely to fermented alcoholic wine. It cannot refer to grape juice.

Conclusion:
Jesus did not create alcoholic wine as a part of His miracle in John 2; And nor did He even drink the Biblical wine that OT saints drank which was mixed with water and lower in alcoholic content. Jesus drank with his disciples of the fruit of the vine at the Last Supper. The fruit of the vine is what the Scriptures say He drank (Matthew 26:29). The fruit of the vine is grape juice! --- Not fermented intoxicating alcohol! That would be like calling an orange smoothie drink in being like the fruit of the orange!
This conclusion is utterly false.
You are deliberately leading people into spiritual deception based on false use of scripture again and again.
 
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As can a lot of other things.

But with alcohol, it is an addictive drug, and a study actually shows that it slightly damages the brain even with moderate use. Sure, it may not seem major or noticeable for most people, but that is just the thing. Why allow for it to damage oneself at all? For again, if you put alcohol in a glass and then put a dirty penny in it, the alcohol cleans the penny. If you put a piece of meat in there, it dries out the meat. Now, the alcohol does not know the difference between being inside your body vs. outside of your body. It seeks to destroy. Why do you think most alcohol does not have nutrition labels on them? Because they offer no nutritiion.
 
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