Sabbath and Law-Keepers - Gracious convo please!

FreeAtLast said:

Again, are you Jewish? That makes a difference if you say that the Law of Moses is required for Jews but not for Gentiles.

Required means it is breaking the Law not to do it. Is that what you're saying? If so, that's what I'm saying when I say "required". Not for salvation, but as a Law, required to adhere to it.

Click to expand...

Yes. Required is not the correct way of looking at it. You seem to keep thinking in terms of either the law or no law within a LEGALISTIC type of understanding. Do you not keep the Commandments...can you murder now? We keep them because we love The Almighty and love our neighbor. That is what Yeshua said. HOW do you do that? Is it enough to just say it or is there something you should DO? Jeremiah 31:33 and Hebrews 10:16

FreeAtLast said:

That makes a difference if you say that the Law of Moses is required for Jews but not for Gentiles.

Click to expand...

Gentiles have been grafted in, so they too should follow what Yeshua said.

FreeAtLast said:

So, are you saying the OLD Covenant Law of Moses is required for born again Believers? Do you not accept the New Covenant?

Click to expand...

Read Hebrews. Sin is the transgression of the Law still, yes? You still sin, yes? The wages of sin is death, yes? Yeshua saved us from the curse of the Law. That is why the Temple and sacrifices are gone. We now have a way for redemption. Of course I accept the New Covenant. What do you think it is?

FreeAtLast said:

I have read Hebrews, many times. However, I'm simply asking very specific questions and you're giving me vague answers or not answering at all. I thought you wanted to discuss this?

Click to expand...

I did give you straight answers.

FreeAtLast said:

No, not really, but hey, I'll try again. Thanks.

You said Gentiles were "grafted in..." when I asked if Gentiles were requited to keep the Old Covenant Law of Moses.

What are you saying Gentiles were grafted in to that makes them responsible to keep the OT Law of Moses which was given to the Jews?

Click to expand...

You keep asking the same question when I have told you repeatedly the answer. Read Romans 11. Anyway, it is almost Shabbat so I need to leave so I will see you on Sunday. Shabbat Shalom!

and again..........

Maybe you missed these scriptures about what Jesus and the Apostles taught about God's 10 commandments in the NT? This list is not exhaustive by any means. God's Word says sin is the transgression of God's Law (10 commandments) if we break one we break them all. If you do a word study in sin and righteousness there is way more scripture then is presented here........

Something to to definitely pray and think about for you I guess. See below for starters...........

Jesus taught the 10 commandments…..

1. Jesus kept God’s Law (10 commandments) and said the Law and the prophets would not pass away (Matt 5:17-18)
2. Jesus taught others to follow the 10 commandments (Mark 10:17-21)
3. Jesus taught that Love is the fulfilling (doing) of God’s Law (10 commandments Matt 22:36-40)
4. If we break God’s Law by following man-made traditions we are not following God (Matt 15:3-9)
5. Jesus says if we commit sin we are a servant of sin and he has come to free us from sin (John 8:32-36)
6. Jesus taught if you love God you will keep God’s Law and abide in His Love (John 14:15; 15:10
7. If anyone is breaking any of God’s commandments and teaching others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven <least = lost> (Matt 5:19)
8. No one can obey God’s Law producing the fruit of obedience of ourselves and unless we abide in Jesus we can do nothing (John 15:4-10)

Paul affirms the Ten Commandments……

1. Paul teaches God's people keep the Sabbath Hebrews 4.
2. Paul tells gentiles that "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
3. Paul tells gentiles "it is not the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge all mankind" Rom 2:13-16
4. Paul asks that gentiles consider the doctrine of LAW "Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31
5. Paul tells ALL Christians that it is only the lost who will "not subject themselves to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they" Rom 8:6-8
6 Paul reaches all Christians under the NEW Covenant that God's LAW as known in Jer 31:31-33 is "written on the heart and mind" Heb 8:7-11
7. Paul tells all Christians that the OT text is to be used for Doctrine 2Tim 3:16
AND He never claims that "if I did not write it -- it is not scripture for us today" -- as one or two have imagined for us.
8. Paul tells all Christians that the 5th commandment is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" Eph 6:1-2 and is binding on all Christians.
9. God's Law (10 commandments) are holy, just and good (Rom 7:12)
10. God's Law gives us a knowledge of what sin is (Rom 3:20; 7:7)
11. The penalty of breaking God's Law without Jesus is death (Rom 6:23)
12. If we break God's Law we dishonor God (Rom 2:23)
13. If we sin we are "under the Law" and guilty before God (Rom 3:19)
14. We are saved by faith but our faith establishes the Law in us (Rom 3:31)
15. If we are saved by grace we should not break God's Law (Rom 6:1-7)
16. We should not break God's Law if we are under grace (Rom 6:15)
17. We are to serve the Law of God through the mind because that is where sin starts (Rom 6:17; 7:25; 8:4; 12:2)
18. It is God's Law that brings us to Jesus (Gal 3:24)
19. God's salvation frees us from sin so we can be obedient to God's Law and live a life of holiness (Rom 6:22)
20. We will be judged by God's Law and only those that are obedient will be justified because of their faith (Rom 2:4-13)
21. God's Law can only be obeyed through love and a changed heart which comes by faith in God's Word (Rom 2:21-29; 13:9-10; Heb 8:9-10)
22. If we break God's Law and are in unrepentant sin we will be lost and will received God's judgements (Heb 10:26-27)

John affirms the 10 commandments……

1. John says it is only by keeping God’s 10 commandments that we know that we know God (1 John 2:3)
2. If someone says that they know God and do not keep God’s 10 commandments they are lying and not telling the truth (1 John 2:4)
3. We should purify ourselves as Jesus is pure (1 John 3:3)
4. Sin is the breaking of God’s 10 commandments (1 John 3:4)
5. Whoever is abiding in Christ does not commit sin (1 John 3:6; John 15:4-10)
6. If you are in unrepentant sin you have not seen Jesus or know him (1 John 3:6)
7. John warns us that only those that are obedience to God’s Law are his true followers (1 John 3:7)
8. If someone is committing unrepentant sin they are following the devil and not God (1 John 3:7)
9. If you are born of God and abiding in him you will not commit sin (1 John 3:9; 1 John 3:6; John 15:4-10
10. It is the keeping of God’s commandments that is the difference between those that are following God and those that are not following God (1 John 3:10; 1 John 5:3)
11. It is only by Love through faith that we can keep God’s commandments (1 John 5:3-4)
12. God’s true believers in the end days will keep all of God’s commandments through faith in Jesus (Rev 14:12; 22:14)

James also affirms the 10 commandments…….

1. James says God’s Law (10 commandments) are a Royal Law (James 2:8)
2. If we break one of God’s commandments we a guilty before God as sinners breaking all of God’s Law and gave some examples of breaking God’s Law (James 2:9-11)
3. James says God’s Law is a law of liberty and freedom (James 2:12)
4. The 10 commandments (God’s Law) are the standard in the judgment (James 2:12)
5. If our faith does not have the fruit of obedience to God’s Law it is dead and not true faith (James 2:16-26)

Peter affirms the 10 commandments……..

1. Sanctification is to obedience to God’s Law (1 Pet 1:2)
2. We can only be changed from sin to obedience to God’s Law by the power of God and it will be revealed in the last days (1 Pet 1:5)
3. We should give up our sins to be holy because Jesus is holy (1 Pet 1:13-16)
4. Jesus is your example who did no sin (1 Pet 2:21-22)
5. Cease from sin and do not live in the flesh (1 Pet 4:1-3)
6. Judgement will begin at the house of God and sinners (those breaking God’s 10 commandments) will not be saved.
7. God has given us his precious promises and as we believe them God will grant us his divine power to live a life of Godliness (obedience to God’s Law; 2 Pet 1:2-4)
8. The Un-Godly (disobedient to God’s Law) will be like Sodom and Gomorrah (2 Pet 2:6)
9. If any turn away from God’s Law and are in unrepentant sin breaking any of God’10 commandments they will be lost (2 Pet 2:20-22)
10 God is not willing that any should perish but that everyone should come to repentance and turn away from sin to follow God’s 10 commandments because those that do not will receive the judgements of God (2 Pet 3:5-14)

What did Jesus and the Apostles teach about the Sabbath in the New Testament?

1. It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56)
2. Jesus made the Sabbath for all mankind (Mark 2:27)
3. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28)
4. If you do not believe and follow God you cannot enter His Sabbath rest (Hebrews 4)
5. It is one of God’s 10 commandments we break it we are guilty or breaking all (James 2:8-12)
6. Breaking it is sin (1 John 3:4)
7. God’s true followers keep it Holy as God commanded (Rev 14:12; Rev 22:14; Eze 20:20)
8. Jesus is our example and he kept the Sabbath (Matt 12:1-8; 10-12; 24:20; Mark 3:1-5; Luke 6:1-10; 13:14-16; 14:1-5; John 7:22-23; 9:14; Mark 1:21; Mark 6:2; Luke 4:16; 31; Luke 14:1; 23:56; John 2:6; Matt 16:24; 1 Cor 11:1; Eph 5:1-21; Pet 2:20-22)
9. The Apostle kept the Sabbath (Acts 13:14; 13:27; 13:44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4; Rev 1:10)

So yep seems like a lot of scripture in the NT alone about God's 10 commandments.....................

God’s Law in the NC is written on our hearts it is through love and it is love the fulfils God’s Law in us as we walk not after the flesh but after the spirit and is why Jesus says f you love me keep my commandments. (John 14:15; John 15:10). If we knowingly break one of God’s commandments we commit sin (1 John 3:4). This includes the 7th Day Sabbath which Jesus made for us and commands us to keep as a holy day.

Sunday worship is a tradition of man that breaks the commandments of God (the fruit of love). Many have forsaken God's 4th commandment and in place of Sunday worship. In times of ignorance God winks at but when a knowledge of the truth has come calls all men everywhere to repent and believe His Word.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of man or the Word of God?. Jesus says if we follow the traditions of man over the Word of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we believe God or man?

That is just two posts seems like a lot of scripture don't you think?

Hope this helps.

FreeAtLast said:

Shalom y'all, I've been discussing with an SDA who states that Sunday worship of G-d is man-made tradition, breaking G-d's commandments and is a sin.

I have asked repeatedly for Scripture which proves that claim and have yet to receive it. What I got was some Scriptures not related at all.

So, instead, I'm asking all you Sabbath and Law-keepers to help me out here with some GRACIOUS discussion on this topic. Please don't copy/ paste SDA websites and flood a bunch of lists of Scriptures. I'm seeking REAL discussion, in a gracious manner, if you're up for it!

And, I'll share why I believe Sunday worship, or Monday worship or Tuesday worship of G-d is not only fine, but encouraged and sanctioned by G-d's Word, not the opinions of man.
Sunday worship of G-d is NOT breaking His commands, nor is it a sin in any way shape or form.

G-d's words:

One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the L-rd, and he who eats, does so for the L-rd, for he gives thanks to G-d; and he who eats not, for the L-rd he does not eat, and gives thanks to G-d," (Rom. 14:5-6).

Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col. 2:16-17).

And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight," (Acts 20:7).

Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. 2 On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come," (1 Cor. 16:1-2).

I was in the Spirit on the L-rd’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11 saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea," (Revelation 1:10-11).

Man's words, but truth regarding the history:
"Sunday is the day that Yeshua rose from the dead. It was the Christians who celebrated Yeshua's resurrection and this was most probably the driving force to gather on the first day of the week.

Click to expand...

The OP here in this thread was a repeat of something already answered in another thread from a question that was posted that was;

Where does is say in God's Word that; (1) God's 4th commandment is Abolished and
(2) we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

FreeAtLast said:

One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the L-rd, and he who eats, does so for the L-rd, for he gives thanks to G-d; and he who eats not, for the L-rd he does not eat, and gives thanks to G-d," (Rom. 14:5-6).

Click to expand...

Well that scripture does NOT;
1. even mention the 4th commandment the 7th day Sabbath,
2. Does not tell us the 4th commandment is Abolished and
3. Does not command us to keep Sunday as a Holy day

So I guess that does not refute anything does it? I think this passage ties in with fasting and eating and drinking and the annual festivals of the OC that Col 2 and Eph 2 are talking about. This has been answered in detail linked here if you are interested with over 200+ supporting scriptures.

Well looks like that one did not refute anything did it?
.............................

FreeAtLast said:

Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col. 2:16-17).

Click to expand...

Well that scripture does NOT;
1. Does not tell us the 4th commandment is Abolished and
2. Does not command us to keep Sunday as a Holy day

This is talking about the special annual festival Sabbaths, holy convocations, New Moons and food and drink offerings in relation to the annual festivals pointing to Jesus that have been nailed to the cross. Once again this has been answered in detail linked here if you are interested with over 200+ supporting scriptures NT and OT scriptures disagreeing with your interpretation.

Well there goes another one. Looks like that one did not refute anything did it?
.................................

FreeAtLast said:

And on the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to depart the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight," (Acts 20:7).

Click to expand...

Well that scripture does NOT;
1. even mention the 4th commandment the 7th day Sabbath,
2. Does not tell us the 4th commandment is Abolished and
3. Does not command us to keep Sunday as a Holy day

This was the disciples meeting together for a meal because Paul was departing the next day v13-14. It doesn't say anything about making Sunday a Holy day only that they met together for a meal because Paul was departing the next day.

Well there goes another one. Looks like that one did not refute anything did it?
.......................................

FreeAtLast said:

Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. 2 On the first day of every week let each one of you put aside and save, as he may prosper, that no collections be made when I come," (1 Cor. 16:1-2).

Click to expand...

Well that scripture does NOT;
1. even mention the 4th commandment the 7th day Sabbath,
2. Does not tell us the 4th commandment is Abolished and
3. Does not command us to keep Sunday as a Holy day

Suggest you read the rest of the Chapter. They were asked to lay aside their contributions on the first day of the week because v3-5, Paul Paul was passing through Macedonia to collect for the Saints (see also Romans 15:25-26)

Well there goes another one. Looks like that one did not refute anything did it?

FreeAtLast said:

I was in the Spirit on the L-rd’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, 11 saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea," (Revelation 1:10-11).

Click to expand...

Well that scripture does NOT;
1. Does not tell us the 4th commandment is Abolished and
2. Does not command us to keep Sunday as a Holy day

I like this verse it actually supports what the scriptures I have been sharing with you already. Did you notice in that scripture it does not tell you what day is the "Lords Day" you are assuming it is referring to Sunday because that is what you have been taught by others right?

What does God's Word say is the "Lords Day" ?..............................

Mark 2:28
Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Woops.... I guess John was in the Spirit on the Sabbath day because the scriptures tell us that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath day not Sunday

Well that one did not go to well for you did it? Looks like nothing you have provided in the entire post refuted anything did it?
..............................................

Now it seems you have not been able to answer the question;

Where does is say in God's Word that; (1) God's 4th commandment is Abolished and (2) we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day?

Well my good friend, seems like you have not refuted any of the scriptures and questions I have provided you. I would suggest that it is more important for us to believe God's Word over the teachings and traditions of man don't you think?

Sunday worship is a tradition of man that breaks the commandments of God (the fruit of love). Many have forsaken God's 4th commandment in place of Sunday worship. In times of ignorance God winks at but when a knowledge of the truth has come calls all men everywhere to repent and believe His Word.

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of man or the Word of God?. Jesus says if we follow the traditions of man over the Word of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we believe God or man?

Most people who go to church on Sunday break the 4th commandment because they reject the 7th day Sabbath of God

Sunday worship, or going to church on sundays, are not listed as sins, however, those in the churches don't keep the 7th day set-apart. It goes hand in hand.

If you're in a church on Sunday, then you more than likely do not keep the 7th day set-apart, as commanded by God

FreeAtLast said:

No, not really, but hey, I'll try again. Thanks.

You said Gentiles were "grafted in..." when I asked if Gentiles were requited to keep the Old Covenant Law of Moses.

What are you saying Gentiles were grafted in to that makes them responsible to keep the OT Law of Moses which was given to the Jews?

Click to expand...

Old covenant written on stone new covenant written on our hearts. Same covenant just written in a different place.

Matthew 4:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (law that Moses wrote was spoken by GOD)
Exodus 4:30
And Aaron spake all the words which the Lord had spoken unto Moses,

Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not;

Four sets of laws were given to Moses by the Lord on the Mount.

Royal Law, GOD wrote with hisown finger
Civil Law
Dietary Law
Ceremonial law that pointed forward to Christ the Messiah and Redeemer.

This Cerimonial law (sanctuary) was fulfilled in the life death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The other three laws can only be fulfilled by keeping them and they are still in effect today

Isaiah 56:6
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; (this does not say JEWS it says sons of the strangers)

Isaiah 66:22-24
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. (after this planet is desolate)

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
(does not say 1st day of the week we come to worship)

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

The is no law against sunday worship however there is a law to keep the Sabbath Holy and do no work.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Hope this helps

Your brother in Christ

OHC

The Sabbath was given to Israel as part of the covenant for how they were to live in the desert and then in Canaan It was never meant to be salvational. When the nation of Israel ceased to be so did the covenant. Since there is no covenant there is no Sabbath law. All your arguments for its observance are nothing but strawmen. Had God wanted all nations to observe a day He would have planted the laws in their hearts and/or given them instructions. There is absolutely no evidence any other nation on the face of the Earth has ever observed the Sabbath. So why is it a sin to worship on any day we might choose? The New Testament absolutely doesn't command Christians to worship on the 7th day.

Please do not use verses that tell us to keep the commandments because there is no 10 to indicate the writers are referring to the 10 commandments. Jesus kept Torah, fulfilled those laws and He asks us to keep the commands He personally gave us.

Dkh587 said:

Most people who go to church on Sunday break the 4th commandment because they reject the 7th day Sabbath of God

Sunday worship, or going to church on sundays, are not listed as sins, however, those in the churches don't keep the 7th day set-apart. It goes hand in hand.

If you're in a church on Sunday, then you more than likely do not keep the 7th day set-apart, as commanded by God

Click to expand...

Commanded to who?

FreeAtLast said:

Thanks for sharing what you believe. Where does it say that the Sabbath was for going to church?

Click to expand...

It doesn't say the Sabbath is for going to church.

The Sabbath is a day of resting from labors and pleasures, just as God rested from his works and pleasures after creating the heavens & the earth.

My point is that if someone is in a church on Sunday, then there is a very high probability that they do not keep the 7th day set-apart, or holy, as commanded by God for his people(which includes Christians)

Now, I realize there is a very small minority of people in the churches that keep the Sabbath, but the majority don't.