(Moved) The law. Is it done away with? Is it, really?

1 John/Yahanan3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

Romans 5:13, "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."

Romans 4:15, "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."

Romans 2:15, "Who show the work of the Torah written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing (condemming sin) or even excusing (justifying sin)."

Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”

BobRyan said:

Because the Bible "matters".

They would be taught that "for Jews" in Israel only 3 feasts were mandatory -- all others we optional for Jews. And they would be taught that gentiles were not required to observe Passover nor were they required to be circumcised. They could worship the one true God in the "court of the gentiles" and would be fully accepted by God.

And the same was promised to them in Isaiah 56:1-8 regarding Sabbath observance also being for them.

Click to expand...

This is for select gentiles only. Those select gentiles were no longer gentiles when they joined the covenant given to Israel. Exodus 12:48

BobRyan said:

In Acts 13 - the gentiles are referred to as "Those who fear God" -

Titus was a "god fearing gentile" not required to be circumcised as we see in Galatians 2.

However Paul requires that Timothy be circumcised in Acts 16 because he was Jewish.

Click to expand...

This isn't correct. Timothy was circumcised for evangelistic causes. Timothy was a half breed.

listed said:

I will accept your tangent rant about history as fact.

Click to expand...

If attempting to speak truth is perceived as a tangent rant, . . . . . . .

I am sorry!

Dig4truth said:

When God says, "My Torah/Law", what do you think He is talking about?

Old Covenant, Torah written on stone.
Renewed Covenant, Torah written on hearts.

Is this too difficult?
What was God talking about since He only has one Torah?

Click to expand...

What ever it is cn't be the law covenant issued at Sinai written on stone (Deut 4:13, Jeremiah 31:31, 32). You didn't deal with the later reference. What you present makes Jeremiah a double tongued liar.

Psalm 89:26-37, “He calls out to Me, ‘You are my Father, My Ĕl, and the rock of my deliverance.’ I also appoint him first-born, Highest of the sovereigns of the earth. I guard My kindness for him forever, And My covenant is steadfast with him. And I shall establish his seed forever, And his throne as the days of the heavens. If his sons forsake My Torah And do not walk in My right-rulings, If they profane My laws And do not guard My commands, Then I shall visit their transgression with the rod, And their crookedness with flogging. But My kindness I do not take away from him, Nor be false to My trustworthiness. I shall not profane My covenant, Neither would I change what has gone out from My lips. Once I have sworn by My set-apartness, I do not lie to Dawiḏ: His seed shall be forever, And his throne as the sun before Me; Like the moon, it is established forever, And the witness in the heaven is steadfast.” Selah.




“My covenant is steadfast with him” and “I shall not profane My covenant, Neither would I change what has gone out from My lips”

Lee Stuvmen said:

If attempting to speak truth is perceived as a tangent rant, . . . . . . .

I am sorry!

Click to expand...

You presented your case about history trying to prove me a fool about my comments exalting yourself as superior. I didn't deny your historical info. What you posted has nothing to do with my comments.

Hizikyah777 said:

1 John/Yahanan3:4, "Whoever commits sin, transgresses also the Law; for sin is the transgression of the Law."

Romans 5:13, "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Word is not in us."

Romans 4:15, "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."

Romans 2:15, "Who show the work of the Torah written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing (condemming sin) or even excusing (justifying sin)."

Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”

Click to expand...

Interesting for cause I can't discuss.

listed said:

Interesting for cause I can't discuss.

Click to expand...

Im not sure I understand you?

Hizikyah777 said:

Im not sure I understand you?

Click to expand...

I understand.

listed said:

What ever it is cn't be the law covenant issued at Sinai written on stone (Deut 4:13, Jeremiah 31:31, 32). You didn't deal with the later reference. What you present makes Jeremiah a double tongued liar.

Click to expand...

And you are trying to make God's standard of holiness, His Torah illegitimate. Did He get it wrong? Was the way He wanted His people to live a holy life now somehow different? Is this what you're saying?

Hizikyah777 said:

Psalm 89:26-37, “He calls out to Me, ‘You are my Father, My Ĕl, and the rock of my deliverance.’ I also appoint him first-born, Highest of the sovereigns of the earth. I guard My kindness for him forever, And My covenant is steadfast with him. And I shall establish his seed forever, And his throne as the days of the heavens. If his sons forsake My Torah And do not walk in My right-rulings, If they profane My laws And do not guard My commands, Then I shall visit their transgression with the rod, And their crookedness with flogging. But My kindness I do not take away from him, Nor be false to My trustworthiness. I shall not profane My covenant, Neither would I change what has gone out from My lips. Once I have sworn by My set-apartness, I do not lie to Dawiḏ: His seed shall be forever, And his throne as the sun before Me; Like the moon, it is established forever, And the witness in the heaven is steadfast.” Selah.

Click to expand...

“My covenant is steadfast with him” and “I shall not profane My covenant, Neither would I change what has gone out from My lips”

Click to expand...

Great verse. Apparently God wasn't listening to some people on this thread. Or is that the other way around?

listed said:

You presented your case about history trying to prove me a fool about my comments exalting yourself as superior. I didn't deny your historical info. What you posted has nothing to do with my comments.

Click to expand...

I didn't try to prove you anything.

I was confused about your reference regarding the human posterior, so I posted some of what I know about the king of Daniels 4th Beast.

But obviously you have all the information you need.

Have a blessed day

Dig4truth said:

V.34 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

There is only one Torah/Law, and it says it will be written on our hearts.

How can you possibly read this any other way?

Click to expand...

Guess again. Where does the subject change in a sentence?

Make means -
to cut, cut off, cut down, cut off a body part, cut out, eliminate, kill, cut a covenant

1. (Qal)
   1. to cut off
      1. to cut off a body part, behead
   2. to cut down
      
      
   3. to hew
      
      
   4. to cut or make a covenant

new means - new, new thing, fresh

Verse 32 lo (not) berith (covenant) karath (made) eth (with) ab (fathers) yom (day) chazaq (took) yad (hand) yatsa (bring) erets (land) Mitsrayim (Egypt) berith (covenant) parar (brake)

Verses 31 -33 are a single sentence. In Hebrews 8 the quote is three sentences. Verse 32 self defines verse 31 which says new as in not previously. So you explain how it is the same covenant written on the heart.

bugkiller

Dig4truth said:

When God says, "My Torah/Law", what do you think He is talking about?

Old Covenant, Torah written on stone.
Renewed Covenant, Torah written on hearts.

Is this too difficult?
What was God talking about since He only has one Torah?

Click to expand...

Where do you get renewed? The word used is chadash pronounced khaw-dawsh' not chadash pronounced khaw-dash'.

bugkiller

bugkiller said:

Guess again. Where does the subject change in a sentence?

Make means -
to cut, cut off, cut down, cut off a body part, cut out, eliminate, kill, cut a covenant

1. (Qal)
   1. to cut off
      1. to cut off a body part, behead
   2. to cut down
      
      
   3. to hew
      
      
   4. to cut or make a covenant

new means - new, new thing, fresh

Click to expand...

I doubt that you're saying God is cutting off a new Covenant, so I must assume that you mean God is cutting a new Covenant.

Verse 32 lo (not) berith (covenant) karath (made) eth (with) ab (fathers) yom (day) chazaq (took) yad (hand) yatsa (bring) erets (land) Mitsrayim (Egypt) berith (covenant) parar (brake)

Click to expand...

The term "new" is Strongs 2319, which comes from the root word Strongs 2318 which means to rebuild or renew!

If they wanted to express something brand new they could have used Strongs 1278 which means a creation, new.

Also, how could it possibly be brand new when God is writing something that already exists on the hearts of His people?

Verses 31 -33 are a single sentence. In Hebrews 8 the quote is three sentences. Verse 32 self defines verse 31 which says new as in not previously. So you explain how it is the same covenant written on the heart.

bugkiller

Click to expand...

No one said it is the same Covenant, it is a renewed Covenant but the same Torah. You know, that Torah that is spiritual? The Torah that is holy? The Torah that is good? Is this ringing a bell?

bugkiller said:

Where do you get renewed? The word used is chadash pronounced khaw-dawsh' not chadash pronounced khaw-dash'.

bugkiller

Click to expand...

They are spelled the exact same way in Hebrew.
But if you want to call it a new Covenant that is accurate enough. But you cannot say that the Torah which is written on the heart is not the same Torah. There is no support for that position.

Did God suddenly create different standards of holiness for His people? If He did then His nature changed and we both know that is against Scripture.

Devin P said:

Jesus says in Matthew chapter 5:

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven..

Click to expand...

.
This was a warning.............To the rulers as judges....... Which John had already called vipers......
This concerns the Gospel to the Jews (the circumcision). John a prophet warning of the coming wrath. The wrath of which the law of Moses prophesies to the Jews.....As this gospel plainly says.

Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Mt 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
The point here is the judges had no reason to not accept John as a prophet. they had witnessed with their own eyes, the power of his preaching, and sinners were coming to repentance. Yet, they refused to declare him a true prophet. Because of his condemnation of themselves......
Do you know what the criteria of judgement the rulers in the law placed upon such a prophet as John???? First he had to bring the people back into obedience, but.....in preaching wrath, there is also the criteria of sin causing God's wrath to fall. Therefore the question becomes about, the wrath which was coming, which John as a prophet could not be determined until his word came to pass....
John, gives testimony to Jesus....His followers, follow Jesus.
Jesus, also a prophet, preaches the coming kingdom of God......
Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Now, you have two prophets being judged by distinct criteria....Both must preach law and obedience to it, or else both are false prophets. Jesus however fulfills prophesy concerning himself as king Messiah, from the wrath that John had preached.......He was judged according to the power of his works to heal the people for the forgiveness of sins.....A fulfillment of the law of Moses, as healing the diseases prophesied in the law, for punishment of their sins.

Bottom line and short story of the matter is...........Neither John, nor Jesus could be absolutely confirmed as true prophets (according to the law) until the wrath of Gods wrath fell and the temple was destroyed. Hence, Jews being zealous for the law, and Gentiles maintaining Noachide law (righteous gentiles keeping law given to Noah) (Abraham kept by the way) were to prevent the wicked and perverse generation of judges, from blaming John, or Jesus as false prophets.
Concerning who caused God's wrath.......
Ac 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Concerning the ministry of Christ's Apostles,
2Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

This has nothing to do with Gentiles keeping Moses law. Obviously ALOT, had changed, including the priesthood, sacrifices etc. Much more than a jot or tittle

Devin P said:

Jesus says in Matthew chapter 5:

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven..

Click to expand...

.
This was a warning.............To the rulers as judges....... Which John had already called vipers......
This concerns the Gospel to the Jews (the circumcision). John a prophet warning of the coming wrath. The wrath of which the law of Moses prophesies to the Jews.....As this gospel plainly says.

Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Mt 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
The point here is the judges had no reason to not accept John as a prophet. they had witnessed with their own eyes, the power of his preaching, and sinners were coming to repentance. Yet, they refused to declare him a true prophet. Because of his condemnation of themselves......
Do you know what the criteria of judgement the rulers in the law placed upon such a prophet as John???? First he had to bring the people back into obedience, but.....in preaching wrath, there is also the criteria of sin causing God's wrath to fall. Therefore the question becomes about, the wrath which was coming, which John as a prophet could not be determined until his word came to pass....
John, gives testimony to Jesus....His followers, follow Jesus.
Jesus, also a prophet, preaches the coming kingdom of God......
Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Now, you have two prophets being judged by distinct criteria....Both must preach law and obedience to it, or else both are false prophets. Jesus however fulfills prophesy concerning himself as king Messiah, from the wrath that John had preached.......He was judged according to the power of his works to heal the people for the forgiveness of sins.....A fulfillment of the law of Moses, as healing the diseases prophesied in the law, for punishment of their sins.

Bottom line and short story of the matter is...........Neither John, nor Jesus could be absolutely confirmed as true prophets (according to the law) until the wrath of Gods wrath fell and the temple was destroyed. Hence, Jews being zealous for the law, and Gentiles maintaining Noachide law (righteous gentiles keeping law given to Noah) (Abraham kept by the way) were to prevent the wicked and perverse generation of judges, from blaming John, or Jesus as false prophets.
Concerning who caused God's wrath.......
Ac 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Concerning the ministry of Christ's Apostles,
2Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

This has nothing to do with Gentiles keeping Moses law. Obviously ALOT, had changed, including the priesthood, sacrifices etc. Much more than a jot or tittle.

Devin P said:

Jesus says in Matthew chapter 5:

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven..

Click to expand...

.
This was a warning.............To the rulers as judges....... Which John had already called vipers......
This concerns the Gospel to the Jews (the circumcision). John a prophet warning of the coming wrath. The wrath of which the law of Moses prophesies to the Jews.....As this gospel plainly says.

Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Mt 21:32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.
The point here is the judges had no reason to not accept John as a prophet. they had witnessed with their own eyes, the power of his preaching, and sinners were coming to repentance. Yet, they refused to declare him a true prophet. Because of his condemnation of themselves......
Do you know what the criteria of judgement the rulers in the law placed upon such a prophet as John???? First he had to bring the people back into obedience, but.....in preaching wrath, there is also the criteria of sin causing God's wrath to fall. Therefore the question becomes about, the wrath which was coming, which John as a prophet could not be determined until his word came to pass....
John, gives testimony to Jesus....His followers, follow Jesus.
Jesus, also a prophet, preaches the coming kingdom of God......
Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Now, you have two prophets being judged by distinct criteria....Both must preach law and obedience to it, or else both are false prophets. Jesus however fulfills prophesy concerning himself as king Messiah, from the wrath that John had preached.......He was judged according to the power of his works to heal the people for the forgiveness of sins.....A fulfillment of the law of Moses, as healing the diseases prophesied in the law, for punishment of their sins.

Bottom line and short story of the matter is...........Neither John, nor Jesus could be absolutely confirmed as true prophets (according to the law) until the wrath of Gods wrath fell and the temple was destroyed. Hence, Jews being zealous for the law, and Gentiles maintaining Noachide law (righteous gentiles keeping law given to Noah) (Abraham kept by the way) were to prevent the wicked and perverse generation of judges, from blaming John, or Jesus as false prophets.
Concerning who caused God's wrath.......when it came......
Ac 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Concerning the ministry of Christ's Apostles,
2Co 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

This has nothing to do with Gentiles keeping Moses law. Obviously ALOT, had changed, including the priesthood, sacrifices etc. Much more than a jot or tittle.

Hence the law was established in the blamless behavior of those in Christ bringing it to its end for those in him. Those apart from him, of the circumcision. Wrath indeed came.....they did not escape. Only until modern history did they return to the land which is also prophesied in
the law
Lev 26:43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the LORD their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.
46 These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.
It is still the covenant made with their father Abraham he remembers.....not Sinai.