Protesting the national anthem

quatona · Sep 29, 2017

Strathos said:
Protesting the national anthem

I doubt they are protesting the national anthem - I am inclined to assume that they are protesting what they feel are actual issues in America´s reality.

David Brider · Sep 29, 2017

essentialsaltes said:
It is a display of patriotism that has become customary.

Hmm. Never really got the point of patriotism.

The Brown Brink · Sep 29, 2017

Patriotism is fine and good...to a point...

But excessive patriotism is called "jingoism."

And it's not fine.
And it's not good.

Dave-W · Sep 29, 2017

David Brider said:
I'm unclear why having a national anthem played at a (AIUI) non-international sports match is even a thing?

In the words of Tevya the milk man: "TRADITION!!!!"

Redac · Sep 29, 2017

FireDragon76 said:
America is an idea. We all have our own take on that idea.

Which would make "America" essentially meaningless.

The Brown Brink · Sep 29, 2017

Dave-W said:
In the words of Tevya the milk man: "TRADITION!!!!"

My mother told a story about a family who always cut the end off the holiday ham...
It was tradition...
Passed down for generations...
Eventually a great-great-grandchild began to collect this family's traditional recipes...
In her research, she discovered her great great grandmother always cut the end off her ham because she didn't have a pan big enough to hold it otherwise...

Some traditions don't stand the test of great great grandchildren...

Christie insb · Sep 29, 2017

Redac said:
Which would make "America" essentially meaningless.

We all have different experiences regarding our country. It is more abstract of a concept than, say, "chair" but even so, when I say chair I think of a straight-back kitchen chair and maybe you think of your dad's recliner in the living room of your childhood.
Likewise, a U.S. history major would have a different view of the country than someone who dropped out of school and didn't even take júnior year civics. Or a white southerner who is still mad that they lost the Civil War versus a black northerner who is a college professor but still has had some very scary incidents when being pulled over for a missing tail light. Then take the differences in personal and community history we all have, and our ideas about this country vary widely.

But it's not meaningless. We just need to keep in mind that the way my family and I have been treated here historically is not the same as the family who came from Mexico at great personal risk or the European Jew who came here during the war. Anyway this post is getting too long but I do not think the concept of America, with our varying backgrounds, is a construct that can vary widely between individuals.

grasping the after wind · Sep 29, 2017

The Brown Brink said:
This statement surely applies to the well-known police brutality issue.
I'm not proud of my country's behavior in that matter, either.
Who is?

Do we expect everyone to show pride in our country in this matter...anyway?...and not use our rights to express our disappointment?Why do we expect that?

This is America.
We're allowed to identify flaws within our societal framework and draw attention to them, so as to correct them.
Surely it is good citizenship to do so.

I think some of us haven't thought this through...

I agree that many have not thought it through as they seem to be unaware of who is responsible for what in the US.
When Roosevelt interred Japanese citizens and no one stood up to oppose it that was a reason to be ashamed of one's country. When Wilson resegregated the Armed Forces and no one stood up to oppose it that was a reason to be ashamed of one's country. When it became clear that the federal government lied about the Gulf of Tonkin or when Nixon lied about a coverup or Clinton perjured himself those were not reasons to be ashamed of the country because the only one's bearing shame were those that were guilty of the actions not the country as a whole as the country did not simply go along with those things but many rose up and acted in opposition. They did not stand up in opposition to the country but in opposition to the thing that they saw as unjust.

I do not see that the heinous actions of a very small group among, in comparison, a much larger group of local government employees as having anything at all to do with the totality of my country. If I were a citizen of say Los Angeles( or any other local community with similar problems) and it was found that the LAPD had a penchant for racist brutal police officers doing racist brutal things, I would find being ashamed of my local Los Angeles city government a reasonable and justifiable idea , perhaps the State of California would also earn my scorn if the State police were also populated with a group of racists that reacted brutally and violently in accordance with their racist outlook. Why, though, should a citizen of Bangor, Maine, assuming for argument's sake that Bangor Maine had no such problem within its police force, be ashamed of the US or the government of the US simply because police in Los Angeles working for the the city of Los Angeles and having nothing whatsoever to do with the US as a complete country or with he government of the US, feel ashamed and lack pride in the country? If the federal government were responsible for or even apathetic to police brutality or if the citizens of the country were quite happy to allow police to behave in such a way, I could see why one would say they lack pride in the country, but since that is clearly not the case as not only does the federal government have no Constitutional policing power or duty to police local communities nor can one cite any federal law or regulation that would suggest that the federal government endorses such behavior nor can one cite a reliable public opinion poll that would suggest Americans are in favor of or apathetic to police brutality , why condemn the country for something the country is not responsible for? Why not point the finger of blame at those that are responsible ( the local authorities in areas where police brutality is an ongoing and accepted practice.) instead of those that are clearly not responsible? Would you find it reasonable to condemn the entire planet as bring unworthy of being proud of because the government of North Korea is a brutal dictatorship? If not , then why condemn a whole country because a few municipalities are irresponsible in properly vetting, training and controlling a portion of their police? The people of the US and their federal government are no more responsible for the failings of city and state governments that they do not reside in and do not control than are the citizens of other nations and the UN are responsible for the failings of governments like North Korea.

The Brown Brink · Sep 29, 2017

grasping the after wind said:
I agree that many have not thought it through as they seem to be unaware of who is responsible for what in the US.
When Roosevelt interred Japanese citizens and no one stood up to oppose it that was a reason to be ashamed of one's country. When Wilson resegregated the Armed Forces and no one stood up to oppose it that was a reason to be ashamed of one's country. When it became clear that the federal government lied about the Gulf of Tonkin or when Nixon lied about a coverup or Clinton perjured himself those were not reasons to be ashamed of the country because the only one's bearing shame were those that were guilty of the actions not the country as a whole as the country did not simply go along with those things but many rose up and acted in opposition. They did not stand up in opposition to the country but in opposition to the thing that they saw as unjust.

I do not see that the heinous actions of a very small group among, in comparison, a much larger group of local government employees as having anything at all to do with the totality of my country. If I were a citizen of say Los Angeles( or any other local community with similar problems) and it was found that the LAPD had a penchant for racist brutal police officers doing racist brutal things, I would find being ashamed of my local Los Angeles city government a reasonable and justifiable idea , perhaps the State of California would also earn my scorn if the State police were also populated with a group of racists that reacted brutally and violently in accordance with their racist outlook. Why, though, should a citizen of Bangor, Maine, assuming for argument's sake that Bangor Maine had no such problem within its police force, be ashamed of the US or the government of the US simply because police in Los Angeles working for the the city of Los Angeles and having nothing whatsoever to do with the US as a complete country or with he government of the US, feel ashamed and lack pride in the country? If the federal government were responsible for or even apathetic to police brutality or if the citizens of the country were quite happy to allow police to behave in such a way, I could see why one would say they lack pride in the country, but since that is clearly not the case as not only does the federal government have no Constitutional policing power or duty to police local communities nor can one cite any federal law or regulation that would suggest that the federal government endorses such behavior nor can one cite a reliable public opinion poll that would suggest Americans are in favor of or apathetic to police brutality , why condemn the country for something the country is not responsible for? Why not point the finger of blame at those that are responsible ( the local authorities in areas where police brutality is an ongoing and accepted practice.) instead of those that are clearly not responsible? Would you find it reasonable to condemn the entire planet as bring unworthy of being proud of because the government of North Korea is a brutal dictatorship? If not , then why condemn a whole country because a few municipalities are irresponsible in properly vetting, training and controlling a portion of their police? The people of the US and their federal government are no more responsible for the failings of city and state governments that they do not reside in and do not control than are the citizens of other nations and the UN are responsible for the failings of governments like North Korea.

Ah...
Your premise is different than mine.

I'm an American.
I am responsible for my country.

You are, too.

Let me ask you...
If the other end of the boat sinks...will your end sink, too?

LadyOfMystery · Sep 29, 2017

2Timothy2:15 said:
I don't think it is a moral issue, but one that is hypocritical at least.

Drick said:
It's a little rude, but not immoral. More than anything, it's just lame and obnoxious.

Actually I admit I voted "morally wrong" but thinking about it and after reading both of these posts I agree, it's not really a moral issue, but it is hypocritical, lame and obnoxious.

I think what they're doing is very rude and disrespectful.

I think it's interesting that if one or two players in a blue moon pray on the field that becomes a big thing where people get mad at them and they have to stop, but if people bend a knee during the National Anthem of all things, that's somehow okay and not disrespectful and if you don't agree with what they're doing you don't have free speech to disagree.

It basically has come to the point where I feel like it's a very one sided "free speech" we have nowadays.

Redac · Sep 29, 2017

Christie insb said:
We all have different experiences regarding our country. It is more abstract of a concept than, say, "chair" but even so, when I say chair I think of a straight-back kitchen chair and maybe you think of your dad's recliner in the living room of your childhood.
Likewise, a U.S. history major would have a different view of the country than someone who dropped out of school and didn't even take júnior year civics. Or a white southerner who is still mad that they lost the Civil War versus a black northerner who is a college professor but still has had some very scary incidents when being pulled over for a missing tail light. Then take the differences in personal and community history we all have, and our ideas about this country vary widely.

But it's not meaningless. We just need to keep in mind that the way my family and I have been treated here historically is not the same as the family who came from Mexico at great personal risk or the European Jew who came here during the war. Anyway this post is getting too long but I do not think the concept of America, with our varying backgrounds, is a construct that can vary widely between individuals.

Yes, and it's this very concept that "America" is nothing more than a vague set of ideas or values that cannot even be decided or agreed upon, rather than a concrete nation with a specific people, history, culture, etc., that I object to. That sort of position does indeed make it meaningless, in that it does not have any real meaning. If it's just a vague concept that everyone gets to come be part of and interpret and reimagine however they see fit, then it doesn't actually represent anything on its own.

The funniest part is that so many people who have this kind of view of the country -- that is, an idea or set of ideas that you could not even come close to a consensus on -- also wonder why we can't just "come together as Americans". If "America" and "American don't actually mean something, then there's nothing to unite around.

grasping the after wind · Sep 29, 2017

The Brown Brink said:
Ah...
Your premise is different than mine.

I'm an American.
I am responsible for my country.

You are, too.

Let me ask you...
If the other end of the boat sinks...will your end sink, too?

The United States is/are not a boat. Not much like a fleet but a bit more like a fleet than a boat. If one ship is set aground by a particularly incompetent captain in complete contradiction to the fleet's manual and orders should I condemn the captains of the other ships or the one's that issued the orders that the incompetent captain did not comply with? Should I condemn the crews of the ships that did not go aground? Or even the crew of the ship that did go aground but had no way to circumvent the incompetence of their captain?
Of course the US is neither a boat nor a fleet but a country of diverse individuals and diverse governments not a single entity but a conglomeration of people and institutions with varying needs and duties. Any attempt to universalize a country, let alone one as large and heterogeneous as the US, with a one size fits all attitude always ends up in tyranny.
So we do start from completely different assumptions about what responsibility. I assume that responsibility lies with those who actually have the ability to act and then act as they decide to act. I cannot say for sure what you assume but I think it is something along the lines of , we are all responsible for everything even when we are not allowed to act individually or not capable of acting individually. I would not guess this, but perhaps you adhere to an idea I have heard expressed but personally find unreasonable i.e.we are not responsible for our individual actions but others are responsible for what we do , what we achieve, what we fail to achieve and these others must bear the responsibilities and consequences of our actions rather than we who act.

grasping the after wind · Sep 29, 2017

Redac said:
Yes, and it's this very concept that "America" is nothing more than a vague set of ideas or values that cannot even be decided or agreed upon, rather than a concrete nation with a specific people, history, culture, etc., that I object to. That sort of position does indeed make it meaningless, in that it does not have any real meaning. If it's just a vague concept that everyone gets to come be part of and interpret and reimagine however they see fit, then it doesn't actually represent anything on its own.

The funniest part is that so many people who have this kind of view of the country -- that is, an idea or set of ideas that you could not even come close to a consensus on -- also wonder why we can't just "come together as Americans". If "America" and "American don't actually mean something, then there's nothing to unite around.

The US , though not a nation , is still a country and though a country of diverse individuals we still ought to have and I believe, for the most part, do have a few very important things in common. We are citizens of a free Republic and ought to all agree that we will not only abide by the law as set up by the Constitution but that we can support and adhere to the principles of that document and the Declaration of Independence. We are definitely not a country that is the invention of white people based upon some racial predisposition to a certain form of government no matter what the radical left and alt right wish to pretend. The principles of liberty, individual rights and equality enshrined in those founding documents are not white principles but rational principles that any person of a reasonable mind ought to find worth adhering to. The fact that they were set forth in writing by people that were to one degree or other hypocrites while espousing these lofty principles does not change the reasonableness or worth of the principles. Show me a person that is not in some degree a hypocrite and I will show you a person with no principles to fall short of.

PeaceB · Sep 29, 2017

Strathos said:
As many American football players are currently doing. Is it moral or not? Please give your opinion and reasoning.

A better question, why do some people object to venerating the mother of our Lord Jesus, yet find it troublesome when people refuse to venerate a flag?

Redac · Sep 29, 2017

grasping the after wind said:
The US , though not a nation , is still a country and though a country of diverse individuals we still ought to have and I believe, for the most part, do have a few very important things in common.

"America" used to be a more or less coherent Anglo-derived nation that assimilated primarily other western European groups for much of its history. Hardly totally homogeneous, but fairly so. That's not the case anymore, though, for better or worse.

We are citizens of a free Republic and ought to all agree that we will not only abide by the law as set up by the Constitution but that we can support and adhere to the principles of that document and the Declaration of Independence. We are definitely not a country that is the invention of white people based upon some racial predisposition to a certain form of government no matter what the radical left and alt right wish to pretend. The principles of liberty, individual rights and equality enshrined in those founding documents are not white principles but rational principles that any person of a reasonable mind ought to find worth adhering to.

The cultural bedrock of the United States, those Enlightenment liberal values enshrined in its foundation, its basis for law and civil society, its founding stock, all that came out of an Anglo and broadly European milieu. I don't know that its some sort of biological predisposition toward certain governments or not, but it would be silly to pretend that all that did not come out of Europe (i.e. white people).

The fact that they were set forth in writing by people that were to one degree or other hypocrites while espousing these lofty principles does not change the reasonableness or worth of the principles. Show me a person that is not in some degree a hypocrite and I will show you a person with no principles to fall short of.

This I would agree with.

Redac · Sep 29, 2017

PeaceB said:
A better question, why do some people object to venerating the mother of our Lord Jesus, yet find it troublesome when people refuse to venerate a flag?

No one prays to the American flag asking it to to intercede with the Lord on our behalf. That makes it more difficult to misinterpret such an act as idolatry or polytheism or whatever.

tadoflamb · Sep 29, 2017

Dave-W said:
When was the last time you heard of tanks being called out to put down a protest?

Last winter.

RDKirk · Sep 29, 2017

SweetCarolina said:
I think it's interesting that if one or two players in a blue moon pray on the field that becomes a big thing where people get mad at them and they have to stop, but if people bend a knee during the National Anthem of all things, that's somehow okay and not disrespectful and if you don't agree with what they're doing you don't have free speech to disagree.

.

The difference is that dealing with God is a heck of a lot more of an important issue--even with people who don't believe in Him.

And that's how it should be.

Belk · Sep 29, 2017

SweetCarolina said:
Actually I admit I voted "morally wrong" but thinking about it and after reading both of these posts I agree, it's not really a moral issue, but it is hypocritical, lame and obnoxious.

Why?

SweetCarolina said:
I think what they're doing is very rude and disrespectful.

Why is quietly kneeling instead of standing rude and obnoxious? I keep asking but no one has tried to explain why they see it this way. At worst I see this as a neutral act.

SweetCarolina said:
I think it's interesting that if one or two players in a blue moon pray on the field that becomes a big thing where people get mad at them and they have to stop, but if people bend a knee during the National Anthem of all things, that's somehow okay and not disrespectful and if you don't agree with what they're doing you don't have free speech to disagree.

I have yet to see the government stop anyone from disagreeing with their actions.

SweetCarolina said:
It basically has come to the point where I feel like it's a very one sided "free speech" we have nowadays.

I don't see that. I have seen both sides actively engaging in free speech. Disagreeing with peoples positions is not an abrogation of free speech rights. It is not even against freedom of expression.

PeaceB · Sep 29, 2017

Redac said:
No one prays to the American flag asking it to to intercede with the Lord on our behalf. That makes it more difficult to misinterpret such an act as idolatry or polytheism or whatever.

Hmm. Well I wonder what the reaction would be if we were to make a football field sized statute of Mary, wheel it out in front of 50,000 people before a football game, have them all stand at attention, put their hands over their heart, sing a song, take of our hats, etc. . .

Protesting the national anthem

Football players protesting the national anthem

Morally commendable

Morally wrong

Unsure

Apathetic

"God"? What do you mean??

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