Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament?

Open Heart said:

No it's not, you have misquoted. Click on the link for that verse. It says Creator, singular.

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Before you make serious accusations about "misquoting", you should check your facts. The Hebrew word used here, is the verb "bara", which is masculine in gender, and PLURAL in number. So it is "CREATORS".You should not always trust the English translators to get everything right! Likewise, in Job 35:10, we read, "God my Maker", where a different Hebrew verb is used, "asah", and here is also masculine in gender, and PLURAL in number! Literally, "God my Makers". In Job 33:4, we read, "The Spirit of God has made (asah) me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.", where the Act of Creation is seen by the Holy Spirit. Hence Job could write, "my MAKERS"! In Psalm 102, verses 24-27 speak of Almighty God as The Creator. In Hebrews 1, verses 10-12, God the Father is Speaking to Jesus Christ, where He takes the words of this Psalm, and applies them to Jesus Christ as The Creator! So we have the Three Persons as Creating, which fully agrees with Genesis 1:1, "In the beginning God (masculine, PLURAL) Created the heavens and the earth".

Dartman said:

They state God's word is Him, and was with Him. It does NOT say "Jesus is the Father".

The verses state the Father SENT Jesus, SPOKE to Jesus, was SEEN by Jesus. Those statements prove Jesus is NOT the Father.

Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah. Jesus, in fact, states this CLEARLY, declaring that his Father is "the ONLY true God";

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ISAIAH.9: = For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
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JOHN.14: = The Father Revealed
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
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Remember, the Lord/God Jesus Christ will be returning to earth in judgment against the unbelievers and heretics.(1THESS.4:16) How will you see Him as, on His return.?

Dartman said:

Jesus Christ, the son of God, is the fulfillment of his God's words, and yes, he is a created being! A human being. A direct descendant of Adam and Eve, Abraham, David and Mary.

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This is utter BLASPHEMY! How can Jesus Christ, Who is the Eternal, uncreated God, be "a creature"? The fact that Jesus Christ is called "Yahweh" in the Bible, is enough evidence to show that He CANNOT be created, as this Name means "self-existent, eternal", as the Name for Jesus in Exodus 3:14, "I AM THAT I AM", or as the Greek Old Testament puts it, " I am The Eternal One"! Which Jesus uses for Himself in John 8:58!

Open Heart said:

Well, that is one interpretation. Another interpetation is that the Angel of the LORD is simply an ANGEL of the LORD, not Christ at all.

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In Genesis 16, the Angel of the Lord speaks with Hagar, and does so as Almighty God, not that He was sent as a representative from God, but as HIMSELF GOD. Likewise in Genesis 22, when Abraham is tested by God in the offering of his son, it is the Angel of the Lord Who calls to Abraham from heaven, and does so as Almighty God, in the First Person. In Exodus 3, we have the account of the burning bush, where we read that the Angel of the Lord called to Moses out of the bush, and then tells Moses that HE is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not that He was simply a messenger sent, but spoke as ALMIGHTY GOD. In Malachi 3 we read of the sending of John the Baptist as the "messenger" before Jesus Christ, and we are also told about "the Lord...the Angel of the Covenant", Who was the Coming One, Who is Jesus Christ. In Psalm 34:7 we read, "The Angel of the Lord encamps around those who fear Him, and He delivers them". No where in the Bible are we told to "fear" a created angel!

@ Saved.by.Grace,

ACTS.9: =
3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
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2COR.3 = 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

messager777 said:

@ Saved.by.Grace,

ACTS.9: =
3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”

Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
.
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2COR.3 = 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

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Hi, it would help by saying why you post Bible texts? What point are you trying to make? Thanks

Open Heart said:

The New Testament is DIFFERENT. I'm not arguing that the New Testament isn't Trinitarian. My statement was that the Old Testament doesn't refer to a pluralistic deity. It describes God as Echad, One.

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Dr. Michael Heiser is a biblical scholar who explains this in everyday language, albeit it takes a few hours to cover the many OT scriptures on the topic thoroughly.

T.S.Bland said:

The Trinity is present in the entire Bible. I was hoping my response would inspire the person I replied to. I do not know why the Bible was written this way. I can see the Trinity in it clearly.
It is beautiful and perfectly orchestrated.

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Well, exactly; and B B Warfield was right that the Old Testament is like a darkened room, when light shines into it, where things become more visible that were there all the time; so is the light of the New Testament shining on the Old; and Father, Son and Holy Spirit are Persons in all the Scriptures.

Norbert L said:

Dr. Michael Heiser is a biblical scholar who explains this in everyday language, albeit it takes a few hours to cover the many OT scriptures on the topic thoroughly.

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The Jews in the Old Testament also accepted that there was more than One Person in the "Godhead", or "Being of God". This can be seen from the many appearances of The Angel of The Lord in the Old Testament, where He is a distinct Person to Yahweh, and yet at the same time, speaks in the First Person as Yahweh Himself , and not just a representative from God. Also, in the Jewish Targums, we read of "the Word" (Jesus Christ as in John 1:1), as being Himself God. A good example can be found on Genesis 19:24, which reads in our versions, "Then the Lord (Yahweh) rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord (Yahweh) out of the heavens". The Targum has it, "And the Word [Memra] of the Lord caused to descend upon the peoples of Sodom and Gommorah, brimstone and fire from the Lord in heaven.". Rightly the First "Yahweh" is Jesus Christ, Who was on earth with Abraham (Genesis chapters 18-19), and the Second "Yahweh" was in heaven.

Saved.By.Grace said:

Hi, it would help by saying why you post Bible texts? What point are you trying to make? Thanks

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HEBREWS.4: = 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

JOHN.6: = 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

messager777 said:

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HEBREWS.4: = 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

JOHN.6: = 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

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You still do not say what your texts are for? What are you trying to prove/show?

Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament?

Yes.

God Bless,
SBC

RaymondG said:

Even a fool when he holds his tongue is accounted wise. However, what you are seeing is man's wisdom. Wisdom gained from books and schools and reasoning with the carnal mind. Man's wisdom....which is foolishness to God. Here's how you can tell the difference.....If man's wisdom is opposed, people get angry, because they spent many hours and years to gain this knowledge, so they fight to protect it. If you are sharing wisdom of God and get opposed, you don't get angry....because you know You probably wouldn't have believed it as well, had it not come directly from God.

"I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

Sometimes being ignorant and unlearnt is not so bad...

"Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marveled;"

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Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'm not entirely ignorant and unlearned....but I am a simple layperson. I do believe what I've been saying very strongly. I just know that my knowledge is limited, and I'm not the best at explaining what I do believe.

T.S.Bland said:

The Trinity is present in the entire Bible. I was hoping my response would inspire the person I replied to. I do not know why the Bible was written this way. I can see the Trinity in it clearly.
It is beautiful and perfectly orchestrated.

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I dont see the word "trinity" in the bible at all.......nor do i see any of descriptions of it given by most people I.E. "The holy spirit is God" "the father is not the son" "The son is not the father"

What help does memorizing all these extra doctrines do for ones salvation? Why cant we just see it in the bible without naming it and creating a doctrine around it? Why isnt the Gospel alone enough?

Baby Cottontail said:

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'm not entirely ignorant and unlearned....but I am a simple layperson. I do believe what I've been saying very strongly. I just know that my knowledge is limited, and I'm not the best at explaining what I do believe.

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You've come to the right place. You will learn how to defend your doctrine to the death here. You'll get told off, called unlearnt you will get back in the books and come back better for the next debate. Once you've had your fun doing that, you will have to forget everything you thing you know and go to the father as a child. Then you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free. But take as much time as you want...God is patient.

Saved.By.Grace said:

And your argument being what?

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That Jesus isn't Jehovah.

Jehovah said for the Jews to have a certain diet. Jesus said it wasn't that which went into the mouth that defiled a man, but that which came out of it. Flesh vs spirit. Did he change his mind?

Jehovah used the waters to cast fear into his children. The flood, parting of the seas, etc. When that fear was used towards his disciples, Jesus rebuked the seas and calmed them. And showed Peter that he could actually walk over them if he had the faith.

The prince of this world's (OT) miracles were that of it's physical features to use fear to make man succumb to him. Floods, seas, blood in water, killing children, famine, etc. Jesus miracles were that which showed it's spiritual powers that benefits man through the love the Father has for man. Feeding, healing, power over death, etc.

There are many things Jesus did and said that show that he wasn't the Jews god nor was his Father. You fight to accept a false teaching of error and ignorance (of the Father). No where are we (Christians) told to follow the practices of Judaism. The priests gave you the Bible. The first Canon did not include the Hebrew scriptures.

To see Jesus as the OT god is just.....................ignorance of the Father, and his soon.

My belief.

RaymondG said:

I dont see the word "trinity" in the bible at all.......nor do i see any of descriptions of it given by most people I.E. "The holy spirit is God" "the father is not the son" "The son is not the father"

What help does memorizing all these extra doctrines do for ones salvation? Why cant we just see it in the bible without naming it and creating a doctrine around it? Why isnt the Gospel alone enough?

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Granted, the term "Trinity" is not found anywhere in the Bible, but neither is the term "Millennialism", which is used to describe the 1000 year Reign of Jesus Christ in Revelation chapter 20. The Term "Trinity" is used to describe the "God" of the Holy Bible, Who is One Being, as Paul says of God in Romans 1:20, "θειότης", which speaks of His Divine nature. It is evident from many verses in the Holy Bible, that more than One "Person", is referred to as "God", as we have in Isaiah 9:6, when speaking of the Lord Jesus Christ, He is called, "the Mighty God". In the following chapter, when speaking of Yahweh, He too is referred to as "the Mighty God". In John 1:1, we read of "the Word", Who is the Lord Jesus Christ, Who is said to be "with God", where the Greek preposition, "pros" (with) cannot be taken to mean "one person", as it denotes, "besides another", or "in the presence of another". Clearly Two Persons are meant. We then read that "the Word was God", where according to the strict rules of Greek grammar, John writes, "θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος", showing the "identity" of "the Word", that He too, like "the God" with Whom He was "with", was also "God", in an equal sense. Two "separate Persons" are in view here, but BOTH ALMIGHTY GOD. Likewise in John 10:30, John writes, "ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν", "I and the Father, one We are", where the singular neuter, "ἕν" (one) denotes the "unity of power and being", and "ἐσμεν", is in the masculine plural, which cannot be understood of only "One Person". "WE BOTH". So, in Matthew 28:19, we read, "εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος", where you will note the singular use of "ὄνομα", (Name=Yahweh), and the repeated Greek article "τοῦ" (the), which again shows that "distinct Persons" are meant. In Acts chapter 5 we read of the Holy Spirit (τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον) being "lied to", which shows that He must be a "Person"; and then He is called, "τῷ θεῷ" (the God), thus showing His absolute Deity!

Baby Cottontail said:

What do you think makes Jesus the Christ?

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The Holy Spirit.

Open Heart said:

None of these indicates a plural God. None. You are reading INTO the Tanach what you know as a Christian.

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In post #146 you said this, But the moment you try to say that the OT teaches the trinity, that's when I disagree. Shalom.) this is what I was answering when I posted the above. I did show the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit from the OT, did I not? Isa 44:6 “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. Gen 1:2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. I did not say they indicated plural Gods, for the Lord our God is One.

Dartman said:

Not even CLOSE to a claim that no man has heard the Father, except Jesus.
Jehovah spoke directly to Israel, and they were terrified. They BEGGED Jehovah to speak to Moses, and let Moses then speak to them, which Jehovah agreed to do.

THEN, Jehovah told Moses;
Deut 18:17-19 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.

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Jesus says the Father spoke to no man. The OT says he did. Yet you say Christ is wrong and the Hebrew scriptures are correct. If the Father spoke to man, why would we need Jesus to "know" the Father. Why did the Jews die and have to be spiritually resurrected after the resurrection? Why does Christ say that HE is the truth, way, life?

You are being influenced by the dangers of the OT that prevented the Jews from seeing the truth (Jesus).

Best to eliminate what was, and follow what is.