Please provide a verse that states that we must be part of Israel to achieve salvation.
This will probably come up a lot, so let me introduce one of my concepts now, and try to do so clearly. There is a difference between Israel and the Commonwealth of Israel. Israel is the tribes and converts. The Commonwealth includes (OT) those Gentiles who came to sojourn in the Land but who did not convert and (NT) those Gentiles grafted on, worshiping the God of Israel even if they don't become Jews.
It's everywhere. Jesus Himself said that He only came but unto the lost sheep of the House of Israel. So, Jesus literally says that He only came for them. People try to say that this was because He only talked to Jews when He was on earth and during His ministry, but that isn't so. He talked about Him being the savior to a gentile woman, a Sumerian by a well, and there's another gentile He preached to, that escapes me at the moment, but He did talk to both Jews and Gentiles. He just primarily talked to Jews.
That, and no. Commonwealth, means nation. So when it says we become part of the commonwealth of Israel, it means we become part of the nation of Israel.
Let me put it another way. If you don't do it, is it a sin? You see, when I say a person doesn't HAVE to refrain from pork (don't misinterpret this as being anti-torah please) that it is not a sin. So for example, Messianics who take up observing the Torah do so out of love for God, not because they are trying to avoid sin. It means that those in the Christian churches, who don't observe Shabbat or avoid treif meat, are not sinning. As believers, we are obligated to avoid sin. We don't "get to" sin even though it's wrong.
You're teaching people
to sin by that logic though. Sin, is only described as the transgression of the law. Yeshua tells us to "go and sin no more", but all sin is ever described as, is one of two things:
1. Disobeying a command directly from the mouth of God.
2. More commonly, disobeying the Torah.
When you tell people that they don't have to refrain from eating pork, you're teaching them it's okay to eat something, and do something that our Father directly calls an abomination. Things that prophetically, when speaking of the end times, He said those that do that, will burn.
I'm not saying we "get to" sin. I'm saying that I'm not keeping Torah
for salvation. I'm doing it because I
am saved. You asked me why I felt I
had to keep Torah. I said I don't have to, I get to. It's a privilege to have had the scales removed from my eyes allowing me to see this.
Ah, I suspected we had a potential for misuderstanding here. There was something about the way you said punishment that clued me in that you meant something different.
The covenant with Israel at Sinai was basically, Obey my commandments and you get to live in the promised land. Therefore the punishment for Israel not keeping the commandments was that we would get kicked out of the Land.
There is no where that it is written that if Israel doesn't obey the commandments that God will abandon her. Indeed, if you read the prophets, you'll find that even though God gets angry with Israel, even cries out "I divorce you!", that his love is deeper and he never abandons her, if you read all the way to the end. In fact, there is an entire book, Hosea, devoted to this very issue. The essence of Hosea is that just as Hosea is faithful to his wife despite her prostitution, so God will be faithful to Israel despite her unfaithfulness.
The purpose of the covenant was the same as it is now. If they kept it, they stayed in the land. When they were kicked out of the land, if they went back to keeping it, they'd be brought back. But, after so much adultery (spiritually) He divorced them, and put them away. Not until Yeshua came could they then come back, because as the law of the adulterous bride states, the only way for an adulterous bride that was put away can be freed from that law, is if her husband dies. Therefore, Yeshua, יהוה,
had to die for us, to free us from that law in which we were kept from Him.
By keeping that covenant again, since Yeshua
renewed it, we will again be brought back into the promised land. But,
only His people keep that covenant, so by keeping it, we prove we belong to the Father. Do we
have to keep all of them? I mean, I suppose not. Yeshua says that those who do and teach all of the commandments, will be called great. Those that do away with the
least and teach others to do the same will be called least. So, they'll probably still be able to get in. Definitely not if they do away with the whole law though. Because it doesn't say if they do away with all of it, and teach others to do the same. It says if they teach anyone to do away with the
least of them. Not all, the very least of them. If we rejoice in freedom from the law, and the ability to live in disobedience, I don't really think such a person would be saved, because they'd be delighting in disobedience to our Father. We probably would have to agree to disagree here haha.
The Lord does cut Israel off from being the his oracle of the gospel due to their disbelief--a disbelief caused by God until the fullness of the Gentiles is come in. But not being God's oracle doesn't mean that he doesn't keep his covenant with them, or that they are not still elect despite their unbelief. As Paul writes about unbelieving Jews in Romans 11:28-29, "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."
I'm not saying that they are removed from His covenant.
You need to read what you yourself wrote, so that you can see its many self-contradictions. You say no one is being replaced, but then you turn around and describe who is being replaced: disbelieving Israel (let's face it, we of the remnant are extremely few). You say you are not stripping Israel of it's election, but you believe that unbelieving Jews are NOT chosen in fact. You are, without being conscious of it I believe, talking out of both sides of your mouth.
Here is the reality of what I see happening in the Two House movement. It begins with the wrongheaded notion that only Israel is saved, and then gets forced into creating a way that Gentile believers in Messiah can be Israel (which is more specific than the Commonwealth of Israel, which they really are a part of). Once Israel envy sets in, the Scriptures get distorted. It procedes to make two errors:
1. It strips the People of Israel (the vast majority of who are not believers) of our election as God's chosen people. It declares it no longer truly Israel.
2. It creates a new Israel: those who believe in Yeshua and keep the commandments.
This sir, SCREAMS Replacement Theology. You can say, "We aren't replacing you," all you want, but if you accept those two assertions above, you have adopted an extreme form of Replacement Theology.
Just to let you know, Replacement theology is my big "thing." I hate it, because it has led to the persecution and death of millions of Jews. It is the fertile ground upon which anti-Semitism grows. It is a heretical doctrine that is a threat to the People of Israel. So you may notice me getting more emotional when we talk about it. It's not you personally. It's the issue.
The gospel, isn't just Yeshua. The gospel, is that those that were dispersed, that those that were scattered, can come into the commonwealth of Israel by keeping the Torah. Faith is a given. No one will want to keep Torah aside from faith, unless they've been brought up as part of Israel, and then try to keep it by self-righteousness. But, no outsider will want to keep it without faith.
Romans 11:20-23
20 Well;
because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Here we see that, they were broken off by unbelief. The root, is Yeshua. Period. But, if one doesn't have faith in Yeshua, they cannot be saved. We stand now, by faith. Does this mean that all of Judah that doesn't believe isn't saved? If they think that their own keeping of the Torah, alone, is what saves them, then no they aren't saved. This isn't replacement theology, this is quite literally what God says. If we have faith in our own justification, by our own hands, we aren't justified in His eyes. Only by faith.
21
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God:
on them which fell, severity;
but toward thee, goodness,
if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
21-22, shows that unless one continues in His goodness (having faith in Him for our justification), then we are to be grafted out of the good olive tree (Israel).
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
Here it shows that they were grafted out (not all of Israel, just the unbelieving portion of it), but because of a belief in themselves, and not in Yeshua. If they then believe, they will be grafted back in. It's not a replacement, because not all of Israel was grafted out. Only the ones that don't believe in the Savior. Only the ones that place more faith in the tradition of man, than in the word of God.
It's quite literally what God Himself says. This is all throughout the Torah. They were keeping Torah decently, but would complain and gripe about not having certain things. Not having meat, not having water, etc. And because it shows a lack of faith, God punished those that didn't have faith.
Hebrew 11:6 - But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Numbers 20:12 - And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
No man can be justified aside from faith, and without justification, we cannot stand before our Father. Will there be those of natural Israel that will not be saved? Yes, if they don't have faith. But God, nor I, want that. I want everyone to see the truth, and to place their faith in Yeshua, and not in themselves, and all of Israel is supposed to in the end days after the fulness of the Gentiles comes in, because they will then see where they strayed and change their ways and turn back to יהוה.
I never said that they get replaced, but if anyone. Natural or grafted, lacks faith, they will be removed, otherwise God isn't consistent with His own word.
I apologize if it sounded as if I was meaning Gentiles would replace Natural Borns, but that's not what I mean. I mean that if one born into Israel, rejects the truth for tradition, even until the end, they will not be saved. God desires strongly against this though. The Pharisees, they were of Judah, yet, they were called children of the devil, because their faith was in the traditions and doctrines of men. So, if the fulness comes in, and a man from Judah still rejects the gospel, still rejects the truth, I don't think that they would be saved based on scripture, but again, God strongly desires against this.
Don't even worry about it, my friend. Like I said, it's my fault -- I realize that my blunt style in the forum, especially when you can't see my face or hear my voice, can sometimes be interpreted as being hostile. That's why I figured, since we were going to get into theology pretty deeply, it would be a good idea for me to tell you what my actual attitude was.
If you spent quality time around religious Jews, you would find out for yourself that they do indeed have faith in God, not themselves. In fact, given this sort of anti-Jewish statement that shows such a grave misunderstanding, I suggest you do exactly that: contact the Rabbi of a local synagogue and tell him that you would like to learn more about Jews and Judaism and would like to attend prayers and maybe some Torah Studies. Just a suggestion.
All I'm saying, is if they believe in Talmud, their faith is not in Yeshua. It's in themselves and the traditions and doctrines of their fathers. If they reject Talmud, if they reject the extra laws passed down by the Rabbis, then yes, their faith is in Yeshua, and not man. If I were to find a sect of Judaism that kept strictly to Torah, and allowed outsiders to become Israel by keeping Torah and eventually out of faith, getting physically circumcised, then yes. I'd definitely seek them out, but apart from that, unless it was to spread this gospel, or to develop an apologetic it'd just be a headache. Unless they believe in the Tanakh, and the Brit, a lot of what they're saying I wouldn't agree with, as my beliefs don't match theirs in the slightest. It would be cool to hear some of the extra teachings that they could offer, especially since they have been reading only the Tanakh, and have so much knowledge of it, and probably understand in more depth the connections that are inside. So, it'd definitely be cool to pick their brain about some things though.
I notice you do admit in this quote of you that there ARE those getting replaced (the overwhelming vast majority of the known People of Israel, the Jews). You simply excuse doing so by saying, "well, but they're not saved."
This is no fault of their own. It is God himself who places a veil over their eyes, for the sake of the fullness of the Gentiles coming in. Do you think that the Lord will punish them for something which is not their own fault? Consider that Paul says of unbelieving Jews, "and so all Israel shall be saved." Romans 11:26
Shabbat shalom, my friend.
Absolutely. I'm not saying it's their fault. I was only able to believe in Yeshua because of the
gift of faith that He gave me. But, the high priest Caiaphas,
knew who Yeshua was, and still wanted Him put to death, because Yeshua would've put an end to their reign of authority. He would've put an end to what they had built, to their interpretation. If one of natural born Israel still rejects who Yeshua is, and picks tradition over truth, they will not be saved. But, as I said earlier, God greatly desires against this. So if it happens at all, I don't think it would be a majority. If it does happen that some aren't saved, it'd be a very small minority. But mostly, we'll just be grafted into Israel along side (both natural blood, and grafted) Judah. Our older brother, harmoniously.
Give me a minute to go back and get the earlier verses again.
