Who Was Moses?

[pat34lee]

Today's Judaism includes all tribes of Israel.

No, it doesn't. Just as before the northern tribes
were lost, Judah only meant Judah, Benjamin and
about half of Levi. The rest are the kingdom of Israel
or Ephraim, not the kingdom of Judah or Jews.

 

[visionary]

No, it doesn't. Just as before the northern tribes
were lost, Judah only meant Judah, Benjamin and
about half of Levi. The rest are the kingdom of Israel
or Ephraim, not the kingdom of Judah or Jews.

Then why is Israel gathering people from different countries? Jewish Voice Ministries International

 

[Open Heart]

I didn't really realize this, and I wanted the perspective of this from one who is of the tribe of Judah.

I've only seen a few examples of this, but it seems to be the majority, and I just wanted to get some opinions. So, after looking at a video of someone of the tribe of Judah explaining the story of Moses - they say that Moses was Jewish, and that it was the Pharaoh vs Judaism, and consequently, God. And that Moses was Jewish, and that those Egyptians that saw the undeniable truth of God working through Moses and God's wonders, converted, not into Israel, but into Judaism.

I just wanted to get some opinions, to see what others thought of this, so I could understand the thinking behind it. Is it not the majority that believe this? Or is it general and basic understanding of the Torah in Judaism today?

I'm going to give you the STANDARD understanding of Judaism and Messianic Judaism. There are those who have other beliefs in the Messianic world, even here in this forum (and I'm sure you are already getting their posts! ) But I'm just going to limit what I say to the regular, every day views held by the majority.

1. Hebrews=Israelites=Jews. All of those are the Children of Israel. The only real difference is the period of time: we were called Hebrews up until the Exodus, Israelites from the Exodus until Babylon, and Jews from Babylon until now.

Sidenote: "Jew" refers to the Kingdom of Judah, (NOT the tribe of Judah) whose citizens went into captivity. Those citizens were the tribe of Judah, tribe of Benjamin, tribe of Levi, plus refugees of the other 10 tribes who had comedown from the north. IOW, "Jew" in Babylon referred to all the tribes (NOT just the tribe of Judah).

2. That means Moses was a Hebrew, an Israelite, and a Jew, since the words are interchangeable.

3. The mixed multitude that joined the Israelites when we left Egypt did not remain apart, but essentially adopted the religion of the Israelites and became a part of the Children of Israel. In today's language, we would call them Jews.

 

[Open Heart]

Even though the early church fathers kept Torah and observed the biblical feasts until 320 AD - 400 AD. Even though they were forced to stop observing these things by being killed if they were caught, because of Constantine.

Wow, I've read a lot of books in Early Church History, and none of them have said this. Constantine gets blamed for a whole lot of stuff he didn't do. This is what can be said about Constantine:
1. He overturned the laws making being a Christian a criminal offense, stopping the persecution.
2. He gave a deferential eye to Christianity, and finally became a Christian just before he died.
3. He made Sunday a day legally free from work, since that accomodated most pagans and Chrisitans, both.
4. Realizing that he kingdom would be more united if the Church were united, he called for a council (Council of Nicea) so that the Bishops could work out their teaching on who Jesus was in relationship to God.

He did not do any of the following things:
1. He did not make Christianity the state religion.
2. He did not run or even influence the Church (the Council of Nicea actually ruled opposite what Constantine wanted).
3. He was no more anti-Jewish than any other Roman.

 

[Open Heart]

Yeah, I know in my bloodline I've got some Benjamin apparently (my cousin did the research, not me).

I don't know if I'd be of Benjamin though. I was a gentile before Yeshua, and have since started learning to keep Torah the way He commands us. I kind of wish to be of Levi. We get to pick based on where we choose to reside apparently, at least that's how a few verses imply it to be, which would be cool. Levi would be awesome to be a part of

I think you are missing the point of Danny's post. If he is tribe of Benjamin, is he not a Jew? Because tribe of Benjamin has been answering to "Jew" since Babylon.

 

[Open Heart]

Some people became Jews in the time of the days of Esther.


Esther 8:17

“And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.”

Right. It's a tribal thing. You can get adopted into the tribe, be part of the People of Israel.

 

[Devin P]

I'm going to give you the STANDARD understanding of Judaism and Messianic Judaism. There are those who have other beliefs in the Messianic world, even here in this forum (and I'm sure you are already getting their posts! ) But I'm just going to limit what I say to the regular, every day views held by the majority.

1. Hebrews=Israelites=Jews. All of those are the Children of Israel. The only real difference is the period of time: we were called Hebrews up until the Exodus, Israelites from the Exodus until Babylon, and Jews from Babylon until now.


Sidenote: "Jew" refers to the Kingdom of Judah, (NOT the tribe of Judah) whose citizens went into captivity. Those citizens were the tribe of Judah, tribe of Benjamin, tribe of Levi, plus refugees of the other 10 tribes who had comedown from the north. IOW, "Jew" in Babylon referred to all the tribes (NOT just the tribe of Judah).

All Jews, are Israelites. Not all Israelites, are Jews. All of those are the Children of Israel, for sure, definitely agree there.
Jews are only comprised of in the modern day, as Judah, Benjamin, and a part of Levi. Not all 12 tribes. The 10, are still in dispersion, and biblically have never been brought back.

Sidenote: That is what I meant, but you're absolutely correct, I did say tribe.

2. That means Moses was a Hebrew, an Israelite, and a Jew, since the words are interchangeable.

Moses was of the tribe of the Levites, and was not a jew. He was a member of Levi, before the time of Judah, Benjamin and Levi joining together. He was still a Levite up until his death, so I don't see how you get that.

3. The mixed multitude that joined the Israelites when we left Egypt did not remain apart, but essentially adopted the religion of the Israelites and became a part of the Children of Israel. In today's language, we would call them Jews.

In today's language, you're doing away with all the rest of the 10 tribes. They're still in dispersion, and are to come back before the end times. That is what I'm part of, as an ex-gentile, having the desire to keep torah. Christians today, do away with Torah, for no reason, there's no biblical basis for the doing away of it, period. But yet, because of what God promised (that He'd cast us to the four corners, that we'd forget His Torah, His name, and who we were, until one day we repented and began obeying Torah, which is starting to happen.)

 

[Devin P]

Wow, I've read a lot of books in Early Church History, and none of them have said this. Constantine gets blamed for a whole lot of stuff he didn't do. This is what can be said about Constantine:
1. He overturned the laws making being a Christian a criminal offense, stopping the persecution.

He made christians safe, but those practicing Torah, he killed. He labeled them all as jews, even if they weren't jews. They were ex-gentiles in many cases, keeping torah as the bible tells us to, and as our Messiah Yeshua tells us to, but so many christians try to say He was anti-torah, when that simply isn't the case if you read it carefully while understanding the Torah. He promised punishment to those that disobeyed Torah. "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity" when iniquity is anomia in the greek, which means lawlessness. Depart from me ye workers of lawlessness.

2. He gave a deferential eye to Christianity, and finally became a Christian just before he died.

He did definitely change the eyes of the followers of Yeshua. He introduced Saturnalia and Easter to the church, and forced Apostles by the sword to stop observing Passover.

3. He made Sunday a day legally free from work, since that accomodated most pagans and Chrisitans, both.

He killed those keeping the saturday 7th day sabbath, and forced the church to keep it on the 1st day. We are still supposed to observe the 1st day sabbath, it was never done away with. אבא doesn't change.

4. Realizing that he kingdom would be more united if the Church were united, he called for a council (Council of Nicea) so that the Bishops could work out their teaching on who Jesus was in relationship to God.

He did not do any of the following things:
1. He did not make Christianity the state religion.
2. He did not run or even influence the Church (the Council of Nicea actually ruled opposite what Constantine wanted).
3. He was no more anti-Jewish than any other Roman.

We'll have to disagree on your 1-4 haha. I've done too much research on him to agree there. He's the reason we have Christmas and Easter today. Both pagan holidays, that have nothing to do with God. יהוה gave us His 7 Feast Days for a reason, they're filled with prophetic information and customs pointing to Yeshua. He fulfilled the 4 spring feasts, now we will wait for Him to obey the 3 fall feasts. Trumpets is this thursday, hopefully He comes back. But, the fulness of the gentiles hasn't come yet, so probably not :/

 

[Devin P]

I think you are missing the point of Danny's post. If he is tribe of Benjamin, is he not a Jew? Because tribe of Benjamin has been answering to "Jew" since Babylon.

Well, because of how it was when everything was during the final dispersion, Judah kept as it was. So, it was left in the final dispersion of Israel as Judah, Benjamin, and part of Israel. This is why people today call all things Israel as Jew, because it's how the world knows Torah observance. As Jacob/Israel prophesied, Judah would be the only tribe to keep up with Torah. I'm thankful they have, it's a huge sign that proves Jesus because of the message in Genesis in the genealogies between Adam to Noah, but I digress. Because of that, that's how they are known, and that's how they've stuck together since. But, as it says in Revelations, we will be able to pick which tribe we reside in after Yeshua comes back. So, no. Because He doesn't reside with Judah (the kingdom/collection of the three tribes, not just Judah), he's not technically.

I wouldn't mind being part of Judah after judgement though

 

[Open Heart]

But, as it says in Revelations, we will be able to pick which tribe we reside in after Yeshua comes back.

Chapter and verse, please.

 

[Open Heart]

He made christians safe, but those practicing Torah, he killed. He labeled them all as jews, even if they weren't jews.

Please provide sources documenting your argument that Constantine engaged in genocide. That means websites that are quality historical sites or original source documents. Please quote what is necessary to support your contention, and give the url. Because honestly, I've never heard this before and it sounds like typical Constantine bashing to me which is never based on actual history.

 

[Open Heart]

All Jews, are Israelites. Not all Israelites, are Jews. All of those are the Children of Israel, for sure, definitely agree there.
Jews are only comprised of in the modern day, as Judah, Benjamin, and a part of Levi. Not all 12 tribes. The 10, are still in dispersion, and biblically have never been brought back.

I must disagree with you. Though you are mostly correct, what you leave out is too significant.

1. When the Kingdom of Judah went into captivity, it included as part of its citizens the refugees from the Northern Kingdom. That means that in Babylon, these members of the other 10 tribes were also addressed as Jews.

2. Jew refers to the KINGDOM of Judah and not to the tribe. The Kingdom of Judah was all the remaining children of Israel (including the refugees). The fact that it is inclusive of more than one tribe absolutely eliminates it as referring to Judah only.

3. There are those of the 10 tribes who are matrilineally descended from Jacob, or a convert such as Rahab or Ruth. They do not know who they are. No one knows who they are. They could be down in Sub-Saharan Africa or up in Northern China for all we know. A few remnants, the nation of Israel has found, and brought to Israel. But for all practical purposes, THEY ARE LOST until the messiah returns.

Moses was of the tribe of the Levites, and was not a jew.

Levites were called Jews in Babylon, since they came from the Kingdom of Judah.


He was a member of Levi, before the time of Judah, Benjamin and Levi joining together. He was still a Levite up until his death, so I don't see how you get that.

In today's language, you're doing away with all the rest of the 10 tribes. They're still in dispersion, and are to come back before the end times. That is what I'm part of, as an ex-gentile, having the desire to keep torah.

I hope from this latest post that I have clarified my position and that you see that I am not "doing away" with the 10 tribes.

As for being an "ex gentile," the only way not to be a Gentile is to be a Jew (by which I am referring to the all the Children of Israel). You become a Jew, you are adopted into Israel, by conversion to Judaism. Becoming a Christian doesn't make a person an ex-Gentile.

I am worried that you have low self esteem as a Gentile. I can only assure you that God loves you just as much as any Jew. Gentiles are not second class citizens in God's Kingdom. Nor is it necessary for Gentiles to become B'nei Yisrael for salvation -- the Council of Jerusalem was very clear about that.

 

[pat34lee]

Please provide sources documenting your argument that Constantine engaged in genocide. That means websites that are quality historical sites or original source documents. Please quote what is necessary to support your contention, and give the url. Because honestly, I've never heard this before and it sounds like typical Constantine bashing to me which is never based on actual history.

This may cover some of the history.

Early Christianity and Judaism | Hebrew Word Study | Skip Moen

http://torahtreasuretrove.com/persecution_of_the_jewish_race

The Documented History of Torah Observant Believers | The Jerusalem Council

 

[pat34lee]

I must disagree with you. Though you are mostly correct, what you leave out is too significant.

1. When the Kingdom of Judah went into captivity, it included as part of its citizens the refugees from the Northern Kingdom. That means that in Babylon, these members of the other 10 tribes were also addressed as Jews.

2. Jew refers to the KINGDOM of Judah and not to the tribe. The Kingdom of Judah was all the remaining children of Israel (including the refugees). The fact that it is inclusive of more than one tribe absolutely eliminates it as referring to Judah only.

3. There are those of the 10 tribes who are matrilineally descended from Jacob, or a convert such as Rahab or Ruth. They do not know who they are. No one knows who they are. They could be down in Sub-Saharan Africa or up in Northern China for all we know. A few remnants, the nation of Israel has found, and brought to Israel. But for all practical purposes, THEY ARE LOST until the messiah returns.

Levites were called Jews in Babylon, since they came from the Kingdom of Judah.

I hope from this latest post that I have clarified my position and that you see that I am not "doing away" with the 10 tribes.

As for being an "ex gentile," the only way not to be a Gentile is to be a Jew (by which I am referring to the all the Children of Israel). You become a Jew, you are adopted into Israel, by conversion to Judaism. Becoming a Christian doesn't make a person an ex-Gentile.

1. Remnants and refugees do not constitute tribes. The majority
of the 9 1/2 tribes were gone.

2. Judah is either the tribe, religion or the kingdom. Only the last
two include other tribes.

3. Politically, and post-Babylon, not biblically, which goes by
patriarchal descent by tribe as shown from Genesis to John.

Moses was no more a Jew than Abram. He died before they came
to exist as a kingdom or a religion.

As for ex-gentile. Gentiles are outsiders. That does not include believers.
I am not only an insider, but a son of Abraham and member of Israel and
heir to all the covenants.
Galatians 3:7
Romans 17:11-24
Romans 4:16
Are 'Gentile Believers' Still Gentiles?
LOST TRIBES of ISRAEL

 

[Open Heart]

This may cover some of the history.

Early Christianity and Judaism | Hebrew Word Study | Skip Moen

http://torahtreasuretrove.com/persecution_of_the_jewish_race

The Documented History of Torah Observant Believers | The Jerusalem Council

You didn't do as I requested. I was very explicit. Torah Treasure Trove is not a historical website, and shouldn't have been listed. The Jerusalem Council's site is reputable, quoting original source documents -- that's history. But you have not quoted anything from it that proves Constantine engaged in antisemitic genocide.

 

[Open Heart]

1. Remnants and refugees do not constitute tribes. The majority
of the 9 1/2 tribes were gone.

This is irrelevant to my point about "Jew" referring to all 12 tribes plus Levi. All I have to do to prove my point is document how in Babylon the word Jew was used to refer to members of the 10 tribes, which I have.

 

[Open Heart]

2. Judah is either the tribe, religion or the kingdom. Only the last
two include other tribes.

And the only one we are talking about when we use the word Jew is Kingdom.

 

[Open Heart]

As for ex-gentile. Gentiles are outsiders.

Gentile simply means anyone who is not part of the people of Israel. There is no negative connotation to the word.

 

[Devin P]

Chapter and verse, please.

My bad. It was in Ezekiel. I could've sworn it was in Revelations, but regardless.

Ezekiel 47:22-23
22And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. 23And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[pat34lee]

You didn't do as I requested. I was very explicit. Torah Treasure Trove is not a historical website, and shouldn't have been listed. The Jerusalem Council's site is reputable, quoting original source documents -- that's history. But you have not quoted anything from it that proves Constantine engaged in antisemitic genocide.

I gave you history (all with references and footnotes).
I wasn't out to prove anything about Constantine as I
didn't make the accusation against him.