Did the earth BECOME formless and void?

Peter1000

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There are a lot of logical problems with the Creation stories unless they are taken less literally and more as a statement of faith.

1st Creation Story: God created the heavens and Earth, created light and apparently made the Earth begin to rotate as there would be light (day) and darkness (night) ending the first day. Without form and void seems to contradict the presence of deep waters, but oh well.

2nd Creation Story: God created the Heavens and Earth but there was no plants as yet as there was no man to work the soil and no rain. No mention of light.

1st Creation Story: God separated the waters so that there was water below and sky above ending the second day.

2nd Creation Story: Streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

1st Creation Story: God separated the seas from the dry land. And then plants appeared ending the third day.

2nd Creation Story: God created the man he named Adam and placed him in the garden to be in charge of what God had planted. The man was allowed anything in the garden except that he must not eat the fruit of the Tree of Life.

1st Creation Story: God placed the sun in the sky to govern the day and the moon to govern the night and also made the stars, all to govern the seasons and years. (No explanation where the light came from on the first day or how there could be light and day without the sun but oh well again.) That ended the fourth day.

2nd Creation Story: Didn't concern itself with day or night or seasons.

1st Creation Story: God created the creatures of the sea and birds. That ended the fifth day.

2nd Creation Story: God had already created birds and beasts and brought them to the man to name them.

1st Creation Story: God created the creatures of the land including livestock and wild animals. And he made man in his own image, male and female he made them, to rule of the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and all creatures that move along the ground and to enjoy the earth's bounty thus ending the sixth day.

2nd Creation Story: All that had already been done by the time God created Eve to be a helper to Adam and established the institution of marriage.

If one stretches far enough, one can try to reconcile the two versions with logical science and with each other. And I have absolutely no problem with anybody who does that and respect their faith.

I myself believe Genesis 1 to be among the newer manuscripts of the Old Testament and is intended as a theological statement that all that exists is by the hand of God and by His deliberate and intentional plan.

And Genesis 2 I believe to be one of the oldest manuscripts of the Old Testament and was intended as an illustration of the supremacy of God and a rather whimsical explanation of why things are as they are.

I believe that Elohim (which is the Hebrew name for the English word 'God'), was the first creator God mentioned in Genesis 1. Only God/Elohim is mentioned in all of Genesis 1. He created all the heavens and the earth in spirit form in Genesis chapter 1, including His firstborn spirit Son, Yahweh, who later comes to earth as Jesus Christ.

In chapter 2, we are introduced to Yahweh/Elohim.

(which is the firstborn spirit Son of Elohim and who's Hebrew name is translated as Lord God). The Lord God/Yahweh Elohim is also known as the Word of God in John 1:1. The Lord God/Yahweh Elohim, is given power and authority from God/Elohim to create the physical universe and that is done in chapter 2 of Genesis.

So the spiritual creation is completed in chapter 1 by God/Elohim. Then read Genesis 2:5 which is the bridge between chapters 1 and 2. And finally the physical creation is completed by the

Lord God/Yahweh Elohim.
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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the first verse makes a statement that God created everything. the next verse and the rest of the chapter goes into the process in which God proceeded to create.

verse 1 - I created everything
proceeding verses - here's how I did it and what happened.
 
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Peter1000

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the first verse makes a statement that God created everything. the next verse and the rest of the chapter goes into the process in which God proceeded to create.

verse 1 - I created everything
proceeding verses - here's how I did it and what happened.
You are exactly right. And interestingly enough He starts the creative time with an earth that is void of form, with water all around it.

So the question is, did God use existing elements to create, which verse 2 seems to be telling us. Taking a large deformed earth and then creating it into the earth we live on today.

Or did he use some power to create something from nothing. Which means He first created a deformed earth, and then finished up the creation by making it into the earth we live on today?

What do you think, existing elements or something from nothing?
 
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S.O.J.I.A.

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You are exactly right. And interestingly enough He starts the creative time with an earth that is void of form, with water all around it.

So the question is, did God use existing elements to create, which verse 2 seems to be telling us. Taking a large deformed earth and then creating it into the earth we live on today.

Or did he use some power to create something from nothing. Which means He first created a deformed earth, and then finished up the creation by making it into the earth we live on today?

What do you think, existing elements or something from nothing?
My point would be that God created the canvas and then painted it.
 
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Foxfyre

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You are exactly right. And interestingly enough He starts the creative time with an earth that is void of form, with water all around it.

So the question is, did God use existing elements to create, which verse 2 seems to be telling us. Taking a large deformed earth and then creating it into the earth we live on today.

Or did he use some power to create something from nothing. Which means He first created a deformed earth, and then finished up the creation by making it into the earth we live on today?

What do you think, existing elements or something from nothing?

That is the time old dilemma for the anti-religion folks though. They can't answer the question of how all the stuff of the universe got there in the first place. So, they just mentally block out that part of the equation even as they scientifically describe how it all go to be how it is now.

And even the Bible, which was not written by scientists but rather through the inspired concepts, impressions, perceptions, illustrations, and beliefs of men of faith, is not specific about how God did it or what the process was. They were just absolutely certain that God did do it.

But then people of faith often don't want to deal with the questions of 'let their be light' days before he placed the sun in the sky, or why light would be good or necessary before there were plants to benefit from it or creatures with eyes to see it.

Such questions are unnecessary to answer when we are satisfied that God is, what there is He created somehow or other, and ultimately He will do with it whatever he will do.
 
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Peter1000

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That is the time old dilemma for the anti-religion folks though. They can't answer the question of how all the stuff of the universe got there in the first place. So, they just mentally block out that part of the equation even as they scientifically describe how it all go to be how it is now.

And even the Bible, which was not written by scientists but rather through the inspired concepts, impressions, perceptions, illustrations, and beliefs of men of faith, is not specific about how God did it or what the process was. They were just absolutely certain that God did do it.

But then people of faith often don't want to deal with the questions of 'let their be light' days before he placed the sun in the sky, or why light would be good or necessary before there were plants to benefit from it or creatures with eyes to see it.

Such questions are unnecessary to answer when we are satisfied that God is, what there is He created somehow or other, and ultimately He will do with it whatever he will do.
That is where the conversation needs to go. It is not necessary to know that information in detail. We know God is, and what there is, He created somehow or other. Thank you.
 
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Anto9us

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Even if I give up a GAP between 1:1 and 1:2 -- and say FILL is better current English word...

There is STILL "a history before history" -- there HAD to have been -- cherubim are around already, Satan is already fallen... the morning stars/sons of God were singing at creation

We are all human and we MESS UP -- but -- are we human BECAUSE WE MESSED UP?

Earlier on as spirits?
 
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ShamashUruk

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Even if I give up a GAP between 1:1 and 1:2 -- and say FILL is better current English word...

There is STILL "a history before history" -- there HAD to have been -- cherubim are around already, Satan is already fallen... the morning stars/sons of God were singing at creation

We are all human and we MESS UP -- but -- are we human BECAUSE WE MESSED UP?

Earlier on as spirits?

Me being a polytheist won't try and explain this too much, however keep in the mind the book of Genesis or Bereshit for the Tanakh concerning the Pentateuch is written much later and is therefore a very young creation epic, among the much older creation epics.

But concerning biblical mythology, I find a few things interesting the Hebrew language is essentially defunct Canaanite language and so I don't know why people allude to interpretive Hebrew sources, I guess maybe cause most aren't readily familiar with Canaanite language itself so they rely on Hebrew. But, to note, the language of the Hebrew is defunct Canaanite language if you want to be technical. Let' take a look at both verses from each side of the coin if you will:

Bereshit 1:1 In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
Bereshit 1:2 Now the earth was astonishingly empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

So genesis Ch 1. V. 1 points out that god in the beginning created the heaven and earth, while in the much older bereshit Ch. 1 V. 1 points out (my interpretation) there was a beginning and that beginning is god's creation of the heavens (notice the plural of heavens and not singular as compared to the genesis version), while earth is used singularly. Is it possible there are multiple heavens and the biblical myths fail to mention it? Or was that due to transliteration?

Of course the etymology of "heaven" is a problem because it is a Germanic term and much older Proto-Germanic "hibin" we can only trace the root of that word that far back, however the term was used in Sumerian culture's as well, so obviously the etymology was off. In Sumer "heaven" is also a deity known as Anu, and later this term is adopted into other societies such as Akkad, Hurrian, Indo-Euro people's and so on. So you'd have to discover the root of the word "heaven" and furthermore you'd need to understand why and in which context it is used. The pluralistic term in the Tankh and singular term in the Biblical account is a product of transliteration by Sectarian monotheists who controlled the church, but let's take another look into the heaven concept.

The word heaven occurs s 420 times in the OT; only a limited number of these occurrences refer to heaven as being divine. It has its cognates in other semitic languages (e. g. Akkad samu or samyyu' Ar Sama) the equivalent in Sumerian is an, in Hittite we find the word nepis for 'heaven'. The etymology of the word is not completely certain; it is possible to derive it from Akk sa me ("of water", cr 25.50: 17), but this can also be popular etymology.

Only a limited number of the 420 occurrences of 'heaven' in the OT refer to its divinity. Heaven is the term for the space above the earth where we can find the sun, the -moon and the -stars, but also water (Jer 10: 13; Ps 148:4), rain (Gen 8:2, Deut 11: 11), dew (Gen 27:28; Deut 33:28) or snow (Isa 55: 10). Since it is also the place for the birds (e.g. Deut 4: 17; Jer 8:7; Ps 8:9; Lam 4: 19), there is no real difference between heaven and sky. So it is no wonder that heaven (or sky) can be opposed to Earth thus forming the common Near Eastern pair of 'Heaven-and-Earth' as description of the whole cosmos. The word raqia, 'firmament' can be used (cf. Gen 1:14-15.17.20; Ps 19:2; Ezck 1:23.25-26; 10:1; Dan 12:3) in parallelism with samayim. Some occurrences of Sehaqim, 'clouds' (cf. Deut 33:26; Jer 51 :9; Ps 36:6; 57: 11; 78:23; 108:5; Job 35:5; 38:37) as parallel to sanayim give the impression of heaven being first of all the space above the earth.
Of further importance is the widely held view of the OT that heaven was created by -God and thus cannot obtain sanctity by itself (lsa 42:5; 45: 18; Ps 8:4; 33:6; Prov 3: 19; 8:27; Neh 9:6). Another aspect of heaven is its role as the abode of God. God is in heaven where he dwells on his throne (cf. Ps 2:4; 11:4; I Kgs 8:30), surrounded by the -Host of heaven and all his -angels (Gen 28: 12; 1 Kgs 22: 19; 2 Chr 18: 18; Pss 89:8-9; 103:21; Neh 9:6; Dan 7: 10: cf. Job 1:6; 2: I). An ancient idea of God's being in heaven has been preserved in Deut 33:26 and Ps 68:34 where he is called the "rider upon the heavens" which can be compared to the idea of God being
the "rider upon the clouds" (Ps 68:5; Isa 19: 1), a term which can be used in a similar way in connection with Baal, the -Riderupon-the-Clouds.
As God is present in heaven, he also acts from there either speaking
to men (Gen 21:17; 22:11,15; Exod 20:22; Deut 4:26; Ps 76:9; Neh 9: 13) or closing up or opening heaven (e. g. Deut 11:17; 2 Sam 21: 10; 1 Kgs 8:35; Ps 147:8). Thus there is a close connection between God and heaven though God is always more than heaven (I Kgs 8:27; 2 Chr 2:5; 6: 18; Jer 23:24).
Though heaven was not originally considered a mythical being in the OT, we can find a kind of re-mythologization since the Persian era: At a first stage we find the divine title -"God of heaven" (Ps 136:26; Jonah I:9; Ezra 1:2; 2 Chr 36:23; Neh 1:4-5, 2:4.20; Dan 2: 18-19; Jdt 5:8; 6: 19). Probably this is a revival of an older concept (cf. Gen 24:3.7), as a male "God of Heaven" is not unknown in the ancient Near East, which also corresponds to a female -Queen
of Heaven. In the Persian era it is possible that this revival is due to Iranian influence on the biblical religion: We can find Ahura Mazda as a "god of heaven" who has created heaven and earth. In such late texts not only the God of Israel has become the God of heaven; it is also possible now to speak of heaven as a synonym for God himself. In the Book of Daniel King Nebuchadnezzar is humiliated to make him recognize "that Heaven rules" (Dan 4:26)-which means nothing other than to recognize God's rule. A similar manner of speaking can be found throughout the Books of Maccabees (I Macc 3:18; 4:10.24.55; 12:15; 2 Macc 7: II): Heaven can save even a small number of the Maccabees from their enemies when they pray to heaven; the quotation from Ps 118: 1 in 1 Macc 4:24 clearly shows that no difference is made between God and heaven. The idiom here is the same as that of the NT.

But check the apocryphal books as prior to the epic of adam and eve there was already the fallen angel who is mistranslated Lucifer in the book of Isaiah and is Hesporos.

I do like christian folklore, but it's more likely that the stories written in Genesis will have unanswered questions due to how the bible is seen by its target audience.
 
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Peter1000

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Even if I give up a GAP between 1:1 and 1:2 -- and say FILL is better current English word...

There is STILL "a history before history" -- there HAD to have been -- cherubim are around already, Satan is already fallen... the morning stars/sons of God were singing at creation

We are all human and we MESS UP -- but -- are we human BECAUSE WE MESSED UP?

Earlier on as spirits?
There had to have been a history before history, for the very reasons you say. We were spirit children of God the Father. We are the ones that shouted for joy when we saw the creation of the earth about finished.

There is a whole world of spirits that most Christians are completely in the dark about, but the bible makes reference to this world as you have mentioned.

There was a war in this spirit world and the result of that war, lucifer and his followers were forced out of heaven to the earth where he is known as satan/devil. Very interesting study.

We were involved in that war. Some of us sided with lucifer and messed up badly. Some of us sided with Jesus and kept our first estate and that gave us the right to come to this earth and enjoy this earthlife and learn how to be like Jesus, and to progress to a resurrected body with great power and mobility and the right to sit with Jesus in his throne.

You have asked asked a couple of 64 million dollar questions. If you would like to talk further on this topic, you might open up a new thread called 'the spirit world'.
 
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ShamashUruk

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There had to have been a history before history, for the very reasons you say. We were spirit children of God the Father. We are the ones that shouted for joy when we saw the creation of the earth about finished.

There is a whole world of spirits that most Christians are completely in the dark about, but the bible makes reference to this world as you have mentioned.

There was a war in this spirit world and the result of that war, lucifer and his followers were forced out of heaven to the earth where he is known as satan/devil. Very interesting study.

We were involved in that war. Some of us sided with lucifer and messed up badly. Some of us sided with Jesus and kept our first estate and that gave us the right to come to this earth and enjoy this earthlife and learn how to be like Jesus, and to progress to a resurrected body with great power and mobility and the right to sit with Jesus in his throne.

You have asked asked a couple of 64 million dollar questions. If you would like to talk further on this topic, you might open up a new thread called 'the spirit world'.

A little on the character Lucifer; Lucifer does not exist until the stroke of a pen in 382 CE. The genealogy is straightforward to plot. First, the apparent name given in Isaiah 14:12 is not Lucifer, but Hêlēl Ben Šaḥar; this is transformed in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, into Ἑωσφόρος (Heōsphóros): dawn bringer. This is the specific Greek term for the god of the planet Venus when it rises. There is no ambiguity in its astral identification as the morning star. In Greek mythology, Heōsphóros was twinned with Hesperos; they are respectively morning and evening star. Even in identifying these as gods of the star, the planet Venus herself remained that of the love goddess Aphrodite, a distinction which needs to be made.


The Septuagint, with its rendition of Heōsphóros, was not, however, used as the basis for the Latin Vulgate, which replaced the earlier translations in circulation, collectively known as the Vetus Latina. The Latin Vulgate was the work of St Jerome in a project which commenced in 382 CE, and became the standard text in the Western Catholic Church for the next 1000 years. Instead of using the Greek Septuagint, Jerome went to the Hebrew texts themselves, and thence made the fatal translation ‘Lucifer.’


This is derived from the Latin lucem ferre, light bearer. Clearly this differs from the Greek, ‘dawn bringer,’ although it has the same basic meaning, that of Venus, the morning star. It is only when the Latin Lucifer is translated back into Greek that it becomes Φωσφόρος (Phōsphóros). Evidently, dawn-bringer is not a term that can be used interchangeably with phosphoros, which has the more general meaning of ‘light-bringing,’ and is applied to many gods and goddesses, such as torch-bearing Hecate. It does not identify the source or the character of the light. Though phosphoros can be applied as an epithet to Lucifer, it would be more accurate to specify heosphoros. The mystery of Lucifer is explicitly concerned with the light of dawn, and its attendant qualities – the reddening of the sky and the magical properties of the dew, an oft forgotten elixir.


Having clarified the confusion in translation, another tool of analysis can be applied: when a word or phrase is used in the Bible it is often taken to deliberately reference other uses of it, seeded throughout the entire text – this is concordance, an important tool of exegesis, though unless applied with discretion it can lead into error. Concordance can be thought of in the same manner as the Beat concept of the cut-up. Each fragment contains a connection to the original use, though now positioned in relation to another word, which creates a third meaning. The word contains the entirety of its history, associations and powers intact. In the example of the Beats, the combinations are random (though the texts are selected), and then interrogated for new, revealed meanings. In the Bible the connections are seen as deliberate, the work of God, creating a complex web of interrelated myth themes and motifs. It is a magical procedure, and comparable to the creation of talismans, which are wrought through the understanding and willed combination of elements. These, for the natural magician, belong to a chain of sympathies extending from the chthonic to the celestial.


If we are to apprehend Lucifer then it is necessary to pursue him in every instance that his name occurs; this process will equip us with his signature. Every Bible contains a concordance; the entries for Lucifer are mercifully brief, yet we can expand this somewhat and note that luciferum is used in the Vulgate to mean the morning star in Psalm 109:3 (Psalm 110 in the KJV): Tecum principium in die virtutis tuae in

splendoribus sanctorum: ex utero, ante luciferum, genui te. Which is rendered in the King James Version as:


Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning:


thou hast the dew of thy youth. Luciferum has quietly become ‘morning,’ not morning star.


It is an adjective, not a proper name, and hence the word is not capital. What we should be aware of is the archaic language of this Davidic text, particularly in the kingship formula: womb of the morning, dew of thy youth. This tells of the resurrection of the king through the goddess, a critical idea in this study. Psalm 110 is used extensively in the New Testament, especially in Hebrews, to support the Messianic claims of Jesus. In doing so it preserves the earlier stratum of ritual practice that we seek to cleave to, and the exact words of the ritual formula.


Luciferum appears again in Job 38, with the sense of ‘shining,’ although in this instance it is an inaccurate gloss for Mazzaroth (the Zodiac). Note that in neither instance is it used in a pejorative or mocking way.


However, the Latin Vulgate has sown confusion with 2 Peter 1:19 where lucifer is equated with Christ: Et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem: cui benefacitis attendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caligi-

noso donec dies elucescat, et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris.


Whereas in the KJV lucifer is given as ‘day star,’ the Latin translates literally as:


We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and lucifer arises in your hearts.


The passage does not use ‘lucifer’ as a noun. Rather, Christ is characterised as like the morning star, that is, as like lucifer but not as Lucifer, the divine personage or entity. There are clearly equivalences between these two figures, which we will explore as our exegesis progresses. Yet this is not some esoteric revelation, it is rather that they share the common cultural koine of Ancient Near Eastern kingship. Nor is this the sole occurrence where Christ is described in terms of the morning star; there are three further instances in the Vulgate which use another term: stella matutina.


These are Ecclesiasticus 50:6: He was as the morning starre in the midst of a cloud: and as the moone at the full; the oblique Revelation 2:28: And I will give him the morning star; and lastly, the unequivocal Revelation 22:16: I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
 
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Peter1000

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Me being a polytheist won't try and explain this too much, however keep in the mind the book of Genesis or Bereshit for the Tanakh concerning the Pentateuch is written much later and is therefore a very young creation epic, among the much older creation epics.

I'm not sure how many times you have mentioned that the bible rendition of the creation is much younger than other 'epics'. So every time you say it, I will remaind you that Moses did not write it from reading 'epics' of the past, he wrote it from firsthand knowledge delivered to him 'face to face' by God himself.

That is what we believer believe. You are not a believer and so you think Moses was educated in Egypt from these older 'epics'. It is not true.

But concerning biblical mythology,

How many times have you used this terminology? There is nothing mythological about the bible. Again, believers believe it is a book of facts and history and all names and places in it are real and once lived on earth.

Adam was not a myth. job is not a myth. Noah was not a myth. Abraham was not a myth. Melchizedec was not a myth. Moses was not a myth etc., etc., etc.

So stop with the 'older epics', and 'biblical mythology'. We do no believe this is the way the bible came about.
 
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ShamashUruk

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I'm not sure how many times you have mentioned that the bible rendition of the creation is much younger than other 'epics'. So every time you say it, I will remaind you that Moses did not write it from reading 'epics' of the past, he wrote it from firsthand knowledge delivered to him 'face to face' by God himself. That is what we believer believe. You are not a believer and so you think Moses was educated in Egypt from these older 'epics'. It is not true. How many times have you used this terminology? There is nothing mythological about the bible. Again, believers believe it is a book of facts and history and all names and places in it are real and once lived on earth. Adam was not a myth. job is not a myth. Noah was not a myth. Abraham was not a myth. Melchizedec was not a myth. Moses was not a myth etc., etc., etc. So stop with the 'older epics', and 'biblical mythology'. We do no believe this is the way the bible came about.

The term "believer" is not synonymous with Christianity; I am a polytheist, so I am unaware that the term "believer" has exclusivity to Christianity. As a polytheist I have a faith as well, please explain by the term "believe" or "believer" is exclusive to Christianity?

I only think Moses was educated in Egypt? Well let's find out if your statement is accurate. Acts 7:22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds. The Bible concludes my theory is correct, I don't think you'll argue with your own Bible.

Concerning mythology, the term used in Academic circles only denotes and alludes to collections of belief’s, motif’s, themes, in each cultural background. Additionally it would be much more offensive if I used the term folklore as that asserts a falsity. So when I use the term “myth” I assume I am debating with a learned Christian (Mormon, LDS, JW, whatever the case might be) who is educated in their own religious history they are purporting. For one to blend Spirituality and Academia in one setting and ignore that the OT and NT have a certain history is befuddling.

As I stated St. Moses has a vague history, so yes I agree he spoke and favored with his “personal God” however, this “personal God” was most likely a Canaanite deity or Yahweh as an Israelite adoption of Ba’al of Canaan.

Older epics only show that there was an adoption among each culture, for example Sumer has a flood epic and so does Babylon. The adoption of the Sumerian epic of the flood in Babylon is show and adopted appropriately, and it is the same with Israel in their famous fairytale the deluge of Noah which can be found in the Old Testament. So I don’t know why you are so offended by adoption of epics?

You talk about Lucifer, here is a little on the Bible character "Lucifer": Lucifer does not exist until the stroke of a pen in 382 CE. The genealogy is straightforward to plot. First, the apparent name given in Isaiah 14:12 is not Lucifer, but Hêlēl Ben Šaḥar; this is transformed in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, into Ἑωσφόρος (Heōsphóros): dawn bringer. This is the specific Greek term for the god of the planet Venus when it rises. There is no ambiguity in its astral identification as the morning star. In Greek mythology, Heōsphóros was twinned with Hesperos; they are respectively morning and evening star. Even in identifying these as gods of the star, the planet Venus herself remained that of the love goddess Aphrodite, a distinction which needs to be made.

The Septuagint, with its rendition of Heōsphóros, was not, however, used as the basis for the Latin Vulgate, which replaced the earlier translations in circulation, collectively known as the Vetus Latina. The Latin Vulgate was the work of St Jerome in a project which commenced in 382 CE, and became the standard text in the Western Catholic Church for the next 1000 years. Instead of using the Greek Septuagint, Jerome went to the Hebrew texts themselves, and thence made the fatal translation ‘Lucifer.’

This is derived from the Latin lucem ferre, light bearer. Clearly this differs from the Greek, ‘dawn bringer,’ although it has the same basic meaning, that of Venus, the morning star. It is only when the Latin Lucifer is translated back into Greek that it becomes Φωσφόρος (Phōsphóros). Evidently, dawn-bringer is not a term that can be used interchangeably with phosphoros, which has the more general meaning of ‘light-bringing,’ and is applied to many gods and goddesses, such as torch-bearing Hecate. It does not identify the source or the character of the light. Though phosphoros can be applied as an epithet to Lucifer, it would be more accurate to specify heosphoros. The mystery of Lucifer is explicitly concerned with the light of dawn, and its attendant qualities – the reddening of the sky and the magical properties of the dew, an oft forgotten elixir.
 
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Peter1000

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ShamashUruk says,
I only think Moses was educated in Egypt? Well let's find out if your statement is accurate. Acts 7:22 And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds. The Bible concludes my theory is correct, I don't think you'll argue with your own Bible.

Certainly I agree with my bible. Moses was learned in the wisdom of the Egyptians and was mighty in words and deeds. But all of his learning was nothing compared to his 'face to face' with Yahweh education. Do you think the Egyptian scholars were more knowledgeable than God Himself????

I don't care what your Academic definition of mythology is, 100% of people believe that mythology refers to a myth, and a myth is thought of as truth and untruth. Mythology is truth mixed with untruth, no matter how you try your best to make it sound like that in certain setting the word mythology refers to all truth. It doesn't and you know it. This sounds like an atheist I was chatting with that told me that the term 'theory' in scientific wording, was another word for 'fact' and it was already proven to be a 'fact'. OK, but for 100% of the people the word 'theory' is just that, an educated guess to be proven in the future. He was adamant, but it did not matter, I did not believe him. I do not believe you. You use the term bible mythology because you think it is full of truth mixed with untruth, not because you believe it is full of all truth.

Moses talked to Yahweh Elohim, who created the physical earth and is the God of the Israelites, not a hold over from the Canaan god baal. Think what you wish from all your scholarly studies, but just remember, all discussions of baal start with: It is suggested..., It is supported...., It is possible...., It is reported from scholars...., that baal is..... IOW nobody knows exactly where baal came from, how long he was, what was his nature, and why he disappeared. Nobody knows anything for sure.

Your epics are fine, but why would Moses adopt any of them, when he recieved the truth of the deluge (for instance) from the one who caused the deluge. I am rather offended by your use of the words 'famous fairytale' for the Israelite story (is that like 'mythology'). You seem to give some reverence to Sumer anything and Babylonian anything, but the Israelite story must have been a fairytale. You are showing your prejudices.

lucifer/satan was a spirit son of Elohim. He was one of the first. That is why he is sometimes referred to as the 'morning star'. He was a glorious person and sat next to Yahweh/Jesus who sat next to Elohim. He did not like the idea that he was second to Yahweh/Jesus and his true colors made themselves known as he turned away from Elohim because of Elohim's love for Yahweh/Jesus and caused a war in heaven which he and his followers lost. This flagrant discord was rewarded by being expelled from heaven, and satan found himself on earth and was present at the garden of Eden to tempt Eve in an attempt to thwart the coming of man to the earth. He failed, but he continues to try to wreck the plan of Yahweh/Jesus to save mens souls and bring them to exaltation. satan and his followers will be consigned to hell for all eternity and will have no chance to recieve bodies of flesh and bone.
 
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ShamashUruk

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ShamashUruk says,


Certainly I agree with my bible. Moses was learned in the wisdom of the Egyptians and was mighty in words and deeds. But all of his learning was nothing compared to his 'face to face' with Yahweh education. Do you think the Egyptian scholars were more knowledgeable than God Himself????

I don't care what your Academic definition of mythology is, 100% of people believe that mythology refers to a myth, and a myth is thought of as truth and untruth. Mythology is truth mixed with untruth, no matter how you try your best to make it sound like that in certain setting the word mythology refers to all truth. It doesn't and you know it. This sounds like an atheist I was chatting with that told me that the term 'theory' in scientific wording, was another word for 'fact' and it was already proven to be a 'fact'. OK, but for 100% of the people the word 'theory' is just that, an educated guess to be proven in the future. He was adamant, but it did not matter, I did not believe him. I do not believe you. You use the term bible mythology because you think it is full of truth mixed with untruth, not because you believe it is full of all truth.

Moses talked to Yahweh Elohim, who created the physical earth and is the God of the Israelites, not a hold over from the Canaan god baal. Think what you wish from all your scholarly studies, but just remember, all discussions of baal start with: It is suggested..., It is supported...., It is possible...., It is reported from scholars...., that baal is..... IOW nobody knows exactly where baal came from, how long he was, what was his nature, and why he disappeared. Nobody knows anything for sure.

Your epics are fine, but why would Moses adopt any of them, when he recieved the truth of the deluge (for instance) from the one who caused the deluge. I am rather offended by your use of the words 'famous fairytale' for the Israelite story (is that like 'mythology'). You seem to give some reverence to Sumer anything and Babylonian anything, but the Israelite story must have been a fairytale. You are showing your prejudices.

lucifer/satan was a spirit son of Elohim. He was one of the first. That is why he is sometimes referred to as the 'morning star'. He was a glorious person and sat next to Yahweh/Jesus who sat next to Elohim. He did not like the idea that he was second to Yahweh/Jesus and his true colors made themselves known as he turned away from Elohim because of Elohim's love for Yahweh/Jesus and caused a war in heaven which he and his followers lost. This flagrant discord was rewarded by being expelled from heaven, and satan found himself on earth and was present at the garden of Eden to tempt Eve in an attempt to thwart the coming of man to the earth. He failed, but he continues to try to wreck the plan of Yahweh/Jesus to save mens souls and bring them to exaltation. satan and his followers will be consigned to hell for all eternity and will have no chance to recieve bodies of flesh and bone.

Learning is where you get concepts from, whether St. Moses engaged with a personal God or not is only relevant, if he did engage in those talks with his personal God, because in city-states there was one God worshiped and a household could have their own personal God but let's state it the way it is supposed to be stated, the Bible "lit" clearly stated he engaged in Egyptian learning.

No not "100%" of people think that mythology automatically belongs to a myth.

For example in common usage, myth can mean a falsehood, or a fable — a story which is widely believed to be based on fact but which is not true. So yes a common person would automatically associate "myth" with being false. For me when a person does this, it shows that they have very common knowledge, you thus reflect so.

However, the academic study of mythology differs, for example Mythography and comparative religious studies also acknowledge the cultural and spiritual value of all myth systems. Hence, it is a collection.

Theory for example, the laws of physics is a theory, but a proven theory. Common people would claim it to be a "fact", but in academic circles it is just a proven theory. Have you been to a comparitive religion class?

No, mythology is not truth mixed with untruth, there are distinguisable differences. For this I'd refer you to a Christian scholar who can better help you.

I use the term mythology to describe the Bible, because academically it is called "myth", however I understand you are a common learned person and will use the term "lit" as in literature. Unless you have some objection to the word literature. I cannot call the Bible "truth" otherwise I'd have to refer to Islam, Judaism, Satanism, Paganism, Buddhism as truth as well and that would be unfair.

Actualy Yahweh and Elohim are different deities, Yahweh relates to Ba'al and El (singular) while Elohim (occasionally used in pluarilty, but used singularily) can be related to the head of any pantheon such as Anu or in Egypt AmunRa in equation.

Suggest meaning that it uses Biblical terminology same as supported, in other words Ba'al is supported by Biblical passages or even Tanakh passages, same as it would in Ugarit or any cultural writings.

Well let's see Ba'al the storm God, is earlier known as:
Sumerian: Iškur
Akkadia: Adad, Haddad
Ugaritic: Haddu/Hadad

So yes the origins are known, because all are storm Gods the precede each other, silly Bear. Also, this relates to "it is possible", "it is suggested", "it is plausible" because Ba'al doesn't carry the same name, but same title in older culture's. Meaning it is the same God, but different name, and has the same characteristics.

The deluge of Ziusudra is much, much, much older than the deluge of Noah. In fact there are language issues in the epic of Noah:

"Make yourself an ark of gopher wood (Tevah); make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and out with pitch."

The word "Tevah" doesn't mean Gopher wood, go look it up. In fact it is an improperly borrowed Babylonian word, which could relate to Bitumen and is a boat, but not wood. Bitumen boats or reed boats, also in Mesopotamia most boats were made out of inflated sheep bladders.

To begin with the ark story has an issue, that is why I resort to the term "fairy tale", I'm not being prejudice, it's just that history is improperly used. And no it is not like "mythology".

Oh on "lucifer" it is a mistranslated term in the book of Isaiah. Lucifer does not exist until the stroke of a pen in 382 CE. The genealogy is straightforward to plot. First, the apparent name given in Isaiah 14:12 is not Lucifer, but Hêlēl Ben Šaḥar; this is transformed in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, into Ἑωσφόρος (Heōsphóros): dawn bringer. This is the specific Greek term for the god of the planet Venus when it rises. There is no ambiguity in its astral identification as the morning star. In Greek mythology, Heōsphóros was twinned with Hesperos; they are respectively morning and evening star. Even in identifying these as gods of the star, the planet Venus herself remained that of the love goddess Aphrodite, a distinction which needs to be made. The Septuagint, with its rendition of Heōsphóros, was not, however, used as the basis for the Latin Vulgate, which replaced the earlier translations in circulation, collectively known as the Vetus Latina. The Latin Vulgate was the work of St Jerome in a project which commenced in 382 CE, and became the standard text in the Western Catholic Church for the next 1000 years. Instead of using the Greek Septuagint, Jerome went to the Hebrew texts themselves, and thence made the fatal translation ‘Lucifer.’ This is derived from the Latin lucem ferre, light bearer. Clearly this differs from the Greek, ‘dawn bringer,’ although it has the same basic meaning, that of Venus, the morning star. It is only when the Latin Lucifer is translated back into Greek that it becomes Φωσφόρος (Phōsphóros).
 
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Peter1000

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Learning is where you get concepts from, whether St. Moses engaged with a personal God or not is only relevant, if he did engage in those talks with his personal God, because in city-states there was one God worshiped and a household could have their own personal God but let's state it the way it is supposed to be stated, the Bible "lit" clearly stated he engaged in Egyptian learning.

No not "100%" of people think that mythology automatically belongs to a myth.

For example in common usage, myth can mean a falsehood, or a fable — a story which is widely believed to be based on fact but which is not true. So yes a common person would automatically associate "myth" with being false. For me when a person does this, it shows that they have very common knowledge, you thus reflect so.

However, the academic study of mythology differs, for example Mythography and comparative religious studies also acknowledge the cultural and spiritual value of all myth systems. Hence, it is a collection.

Theory for example, the laws of physics is a theory, but a proven theory. Common people would claim it to be a "fact", but in academic circles it is just a proven theory. Have you been to a comparitive religion class?

No, mythology is not truth mixed with untruth, there are distinguisable differences. For this I'd refer you to a Christian scholar who can better help you.

I use the term mythology to describe the Bible, because academically it is called "myth", however I understand you are a common learned person and will use the term "lit" as in literature. Unless you have some objection to the word literature. I cannot call the Bible "truth" otherwise I'd have to refer to Islam, Judaism, Satanism, Paganism, Buddhism as truth as well and that would be unfair.

Actualy Yahweh and Elohim are different deities, Yahweh relates to Ba'al and El (singular) while Elohim (occasionally used in pluarilty, but used singularily) can be related to the head of any pantheon such as Anu or in Egypt AmunRa in equation.

Suggest meaning that it uses Biblical terminology same as supported, in other words Ba'al is supported by Biblical passages or even Tanakh passages, same as it would in Ugarit or any cultural writings.

Well let's see Ba'al the storm God, is earlier known as:
Sumerian: Iškur
Akkadia: Adad, Haddad
Ugaritic: Haddu/Hadad

So yes the origins are known, because all are storm Gods the precede each other, silly Bear. Also, this relates to "it is possible", "it is suggested", "it is plausible" because Ba'al doesn't carry the same name, but same title in older culture's. Meaning it is the same God, but different name, and has the same characteristics.

The deluge of Ziusudra is much, much, much older than the deluge of Noah. In fact there are language issues in the epic of Noah:

"Make yourself an ark of gopher wood (Tevah); make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and out with pitch."

The word "Tevah" doesn't mean Gopher wood, go look it up. In fact it is an improperly borrowed Babylonian word, which could relate to Bitumen and is a boat, but not wood. Bitumen boats or reed boats, also in Mesopotamia most boats were made out of inflated sheep bladders.

To begin with the ark story has an issue, that is why I resort to the term "fairy tale", I'm not being prejudice, it's just that history is improperly used. And no it is not like "mythology".

Oh on "lucifer" it is a mistranslated term in the book of Isaiah. Lucifer does not exist until the stroke of a pen in 382 CE. The genealogy is straightforward to plot. First, the apparent name given in Isaiah 14:12 is not Lucifer, but Hêlēl Ben Šaḥar; this is transformed in the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, into Ἑωσφόρος (Heōsphóros): dawn bringer. This is the specific Greek term for the god of the planet Venus when it rises. There is no ambiguity in its astral identification as the morning star. In Greek mythology, Heōsphóros was twinned with Hesperos; they are respectively morning and evening star. Even in identifying these as gods of the star, the planet Venus herself remained that of the love goddess Aphrodite, a distinction which needs to be made. The Septuagint, with its rendition of Heōsphóros, was not, however, used as the basis for the Latin Vulgate, which replaced the earlier translations in circulation, collectively known as the Vetus Latina. The Latin Vulgate was the work of St Jerome in a project which commenced in 382 CE, and became the standard text in the Western Catholic Church for the next 1000 years. Instead of using the Greek Septuagint, Jerome went to the Hebrew texts themselves, and thence made the fatal translation ‘Lucifer.’ This is derived from the Latin lucem ferre, light bearer. Clearly this differs from the Greek, ‘dawn bringer,’ although it has the same basic meaning, that of Venus, the morning star. It is only when the Latin Lucifer is translated back into Greek that it becomes Φωσφόρος (Phōsphóros).
You are right, it is only relevent if Moses did engage in talks with his personal God. That is true. So it is relevent, because he did engage in talks with his personal God, face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.

This type of education, as you know, far exceeds the education of any cultural groups extremenly finite book knowledge of what and how God did things.

The Ziusudra flood epic, was written around 1700bc. The Epic is the Sumer rendition of the flood that happened to Noah. This is not mythology either by the Sumers or Moses. The Sumer writing is older of course than Moses' writing, but so what, it does not mean that Moses copied it or regurgitated it from the Sumer.

Moses still got his info from God, the same God that came to Noah around 2500-3000bc and let him know a world-wide flood would come and he was to build an arc to save himself and a population of animals to restart life after the flood. Moses may have known about the flood from a Sumer book, but that is speculative. We know he had info from God.
 
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ShamashUruk

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You are right, it is only relevent if Moses did engage in talks with his personal God. That is true. So it is relevent, because he did engage in talks with his personal God, face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend.

This type of education, as you know, far exceeds the education of any cultural groups extremenly finite book knowledge of what and how God did things.

The Ziusudra flood epic, was written around 1700bc. The Epic is the Sumer rendition of the flood that happened to Noah. This is not mythology either by the Sumers or Moses. The Sumer writing is older of course than Moses' writing, but so what, it does not mean that Moses copied it or regurgitated it from the Sumer.

Moses still got his info from God, the same God that came to Noah around 2500-3000bc and let him know a world-wide flood would come and he was to build an arc to save himself and a population of animals to restart life after the flood. Moses may have known about the flood from a Sumer book, but that is speculative. We know he had info from God.

Personal God generally infers polytheism, and not monotheism. A person has a personal God outside of other Gods being worshiped in a city-state, but still acknowledges the Gods in the city-state.

To begin with there are about 300 flood epics, and between the Bible flood epic and the Sumerian flood epic there Egyptian, Babylonian, Akkadian, Hittite flood epics. So which rendition of the flood epics is St. Moses concerning the Noahnic flood epic, it would be hard to tell directly. We see a culmination of epics in the Noah flood epic.

If St. Moses is raised in Egypt and educated in Egypt he is aware of flood epics, the epoch of Sumer and of the Israelite's concerning flood "lit" (as I know you despise the word "myth") are developed from culture to culture.
 
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I am one who thinks there is a GAP between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

There are two reasons I see a GAP here -- one, if God had just finished CREATING something, it would not be "without form and void" -- it would be a finished creation. Two, the later command to REPLENISH the earth -- that presupposes an earlier time when it was "plenished", but then became not so anymore

Here is jazz about the word in Gen 1:2 translated was :


The KJV translates Strong's H1961 in the following manner:
was, come to pass, came, has been, were happened, become, pertained, better for thee.
Outline of Biblical Usage H1933); to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):—beacon, × altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, follow, happen, × have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, × use.

---

Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

I believe (among other things) it is the first picture of a desolate woman.
 
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I believe (among other things) it is the first picture of a desolate woman.

Bereshit 1

V1: In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.

V2: Now the earth was astonishingly empty, and darkness was on the face of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the face of the water.

The Tankh gives a clearer picture, we see the beginning of the God's creation of the heaven and earth at least in a Judaic context. Also, the earth was empty, the previous verse concludes there was a creation already of the heavens and earth. In the picture we see God hovering over the face of the water. So there is little confusion as to the picture that Genesis is painting, but you the reader should understand that Genesis is translated from Judaic texts.

Of course looking at a much earlier picture we see that long before Christianity emerged there was a formula used buy Mesopotamian Kings to show that their power extended over the whole land of the two rivers; King of Sumer and akkad. The great alluvial plain from the site of the modern city of Baghdad this is where the Tigris and the Euphrates approach closely together and then down to a little point below Kurna, this was where the head of the gulf was and it was divided into two parts. Keep in mind the boundary between these both Rivers was not properly defined, shifting this way and that with the vicissitudes of Conquest and of course with the rise and fall of rival elements in the population the two main countries stood in opposition of each other and we're distinguished by race and language. We have the akkad in the North who were predominantly Semitic and Sumer in the south, which are not Semitic but pre Semitic. Both inhabited Mesopotamia and of course lower Mesopotamia included Sumer and the akkadians (acadians). So the Upper Euphrates Valley and the high plateau of the Syrian desert were inhabited by man long before the Gulf Waters had receded. In this area there would be monuments of Paleolithic Age and later Stone Age has left its traces in The Valleys of the Euphrates and the the Khabur and Sajur. However, in Mesopotamia itself nothing of this kind is found and in the earliest human settlements Flint instruments indeed are common but they are associated with metal or betray the influence of metalworking and we can only conclude that it was comparatively late in human history when man had already advanced into calcholithic age, that the Lower Valley became fit for this occupation. The modern town of Muhammerah in Old Days stretch the Waters of the greater Gulf, the river karun will empty into shatt-al-arab and this is opposite of the Wadi al-batin it's now dry but was a river at one time and it ran up and down in the heart of Arabia. The karun brings down from Persian Hills as much silt as do the Waters of the Tigris and the Euphrates the Old River al batin stream. The bar neutralize the scouring action of the gulf tide and enable The Tigress and the Euphrates River to deposit at their mouths of silt which had been swept out to sea and at the same time the seal to the southern rivers begin to fill in what is now the great Lagoon. the mud of the to Northern streams that did not go to swell the Delta now formula thermals were dropped and the current was check by the bar over the whole of the old Gulf Waters and help raise the level of its bed so while Dryland was formed first and most quickly in the north and in the South the Lagoon between grew more and more shallow so Islands appeared and at last we're all had been a waste of water they're stretched a fast Delta of clay of sand and mud. it was a Delta periodically that flooded and in the summer Scorch the pitiless Sun, but it's dirt soil, light and stoneless, was as rich as could be found anywhere on Earth, and rarely needed man's labor to produce men's food. this is the same description in Genesis of the creation of the Earth as man's home and agrees admirably with the process of formation of the Mesopotamian Delta. "let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place and let the dry land appear and it was so," this passage is written much later by St Moses but is adopted by Moses to show what had already occurred naturally. because the manner in which land is formed is important as serving to explain the differences in the population that occupied it. a country so rich potentially invited settlers, but these settlers came and gradually as a process of transformation took place and they did not come from the same regions, but from all the shores of the ancient Gulf. The north part of the Syrian desert and the upper Euphrates Valley we're inhabited by people of Semitic speech known and when they first appear in history as the martu and later known as the amurru. so it would be natural that the delta formed in the north at the mouth of the Euphrates the new land should be calling Eyes by these the new land should be colonized by these neighboring folk, following the retreating Waters and cultivating the freshly dried alluvium. They occupied Sippar and opis on either side of the neck of land where the two rivers come closest together, and thereby secured possession of the northern triangle which was to be the land of Akkadian. so St Moses has these ideas as he is already educated by the Egyptians and this reflects so in the Book of Genesis concerning land formations and how land formations worked historically.

Bereshit 1: 27-28 goes on about image, so image and the image of God. Right from the start, human creation is for P an event sui generis. Then God said, åðúåîãë åðîìöá íãà äùòð “Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness; and let them have dominion over
the fish of the sea, and over the birds of heaven, and over the beasts, and over the whole earth, and over everything that moves on the earth.” So God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created it, male and female he created them.

“The creation of human life is an exception to the rule of creation by divine fiat, as signaled by the replacement of the simple … Hebrew command (the jussive) with a personal, strongly expressed resolve (the cohortative [see § . . ]).”12 Whereas the earlier jussives expressed God’s will with a third person, nonagentive verb form, the cohortative is both first person and agentive. Unlike the jussives, too, the cohortative does not itself create but prepares or introduces the creative act.

With justification, then, Wol notes that “the man and the woman in Gen. I … are … created … by God’s own personal decision (v. 26)—a decision unique in the Priestly document’s whole creation account.” Similarly, von Rad is justified to infer that “God participates more intimately and intensively in this than in the earlier works of creation.”

As the cohortative form suggests, P’s God anticipates a more active role, greater control, and stronger personal involvement in the human creation than in his previous seven creative acts.

God’s involvement also runs deeper. As P tells the story, this last creative act coincides with an extraordinary divine event. When God initiates human creation, God takes the opportunity to identify himself, for the first time, in the self-referential first person. At the same time, God’s identity is invested in this human creature and is represented by two characteristics: a divine image and a divine likeness. Humanity resembles divinity through two inherent yet divine features. Of all God’s creations, only humanity is envisioned as comparable to divinity

V. corroborates and executes this vision. Its first clause names the creator, the human creature, and the divine image that God invests in human beings (v. 27aα). Overlapping with the first,19 the second clause identifies the divine possessor of the image (v. 27aâ). The third clause deletes reference to the image yet describes the human creature as a constituent pair (v. 27b). V. 27 therefore reiterates the unique relationship between God and humanity, explains the relationship, and tracks it from its source to its individual heirs.

The interpretive details of Gen :26–27 are unclear at best. To be sure, the characteristics uniquely shared by creator and creature assert “the incomparable nature of human beings and their special relationship to God.”22 But when its two nominal components—‘image’ and ‘likeness’—are queried, the assertion of incomparability is quickly qualified. For example, what does the ‘image’ of God signify, and how does the human race reflect it? Or, what is a divine ‘likeness’, how
does it compare to the divine ‘image’, and how is the ‘likeness’ reflected in humankind?

The responses are often unsatisfying. Preuss finds that “very little distinction can be made between the two words.” Sarna’s language is somewhat stronger: “The two terms are used interchangeably and indiscriminately.”

Horst adds bravado. One has to conclude that “image” and “likeness” are, like “prototype” and “original,” essentially equivalent expressions. They do not seek to describe two different sorts of relationship, but only a single one; the second member of the word-pair does not seek to do more than in some sense to define the first more closely and to reinforce it. That is to say, it seeks so to limit and to fix the likeness and accord between God and man that, in all circumstances, the uniqueness of God will be guarded.

These statements, then, testify to the problem. The ‘image’ is problematic in its own right. For in most of its occurrences, íìö ‘image’ is a concrete noun. And as such, it refers to a representation of form, figure, or physical appearance (see § . . ). Thus if the human race is created in the ‘image of God’, there is an unavoidable logical implication: God must also be material, physical, corporeal, and, to a certain degree, humanoid (see also § . . ).

Problematic, too, is the intertextual implication of a concrete, human ‘image’. Indeed, the very existence of such an ‘image’ seems to violate the second commandment, which forbids idols and idolatry (Ex 20: – ; Dt : –10; see also Dt :15–19, and, within the Priestly tradition, Lev 19: , 26: ).

From a theological perspective, then, the ‘image’ in Gen :26–27 may be dangerous or, at least, “tainted.” Grammar compounds the problems. One grammatical di culty lies in the prepositions that govern ‘image’ and ‘likeness’: ‘in’ and ‘like’, respectively. A minority of interpreters believe this differential marking sufficiently indicates an interpretive difference between the two prepositional phrases.

The majority disagrees. “There is no particular significance in the change of prepositions (‘in’ our image, ‘according to’ our likeness). In [Gen] . they are exchanged without any difference in meaning.”34 “It is in accordance with the sense to render both prepositions in the same way. Both the nouns and the prepositions are interchangeable …; one verb covers both phrases, åðúåîãë and åðîìöá; we have not two but one expression.”35 Whereas the language of Gen :26 differentiates two types of divine-human relationship, most scholars abandon a grammatical analysis as futile. “Early attempts to distinguish between á and ë have been given up.
 
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